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Who among Ramsey/Özil/Cazorla should be dropped?

Who among Ramsey/Özil/Cazorla should be dropped?

  • Özil

  • Ramsey

  • Cazorla


Results are only viewable after voting.

Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
Trusted ⭐

Country: Wales
The question on the thread is who needs to be dropped and the answer is none of them, the same type of players work well enough in the Chelsea system which for me implies we aren't getting it right tactically.

The problem with your suggestion of Coquelin and Ramsey in CM is Ramsey vacates it far too often so it becomes just Coq in CM and we are more open than we need to be. That said its a partnership that hasn't played much and I would be up for seeing more of it before I committed it to the bin like Wenger seems to have :)

I think Ramsey gets a lot of stick for going forward yet people underrate how good his engine is. He has no problem getting back and covering without the ball, his stamina is phenomenal.

For Chelsea you often see Cesc get ahead of the ball when he's partnering Matic.
 

RandyMarsh

Established Member
I don't get why people want to copy the Chelsea system? Players aren't robots, no two players are exactly alike.

The system I think would work is a Coq/Ramsey pairing focused on outmuscling the opposition in the middle, getting the ball quickly to Özil who can either spread it quickly to Theo/Ox or Alexis making aggressive runs in behind. Or Özil can use Giroud to hold up the ball, Ramsey could run from deep and break late into the box.

The annoying thing is it worked so well in 13/14, it was no surprise that once Theo, Ramsey and eventually Özil were seriously injured our title challenge went up in smoke. That team was a mismatch nightmare, and could hurt you in several different ways.
Yeah agree with this. Trust me, come December time when our inevitable injuries force Wenger into playing a team like you suggest, we will start seeing us pick up results regularly and play our best and most balanced football; both in attack and defence.

The team you suggest is sensible and practical, but Wenger doesn't do that i'm afraid. Unless he is forced to.
 

Big Poppa

Established Member
Trusted ⭐

Country: USA

Player:Saliba
Because when you have two wide forwards like Walcott and Sanchez our possession football suffers in the final third as both players do tend to lose the ball.

What the **** have we achieved in over 10 years of possession football? Wenger's most successful sides were at their most dangerous when defending an opposition corner because of lightning quick counter attacks and potent finishing. I couldn't give a **** if we have 60% of the ball or 40% of the ball. If with that 40% we create better chances and score more goals. Wenger, play every player in their best position and stop trying to be a smarty pants.
 

Gooner n Proud

a.k.a. nasri_8 and Voice of Flamini
I'm not necessarily talking about possession football as a primary style but more in terms of our inability to hold possession in the final third when we are progressing an attack if we were going to use that front 3 permanently.

Controversial and some shocks but I think our most balanced front 3 would be Campbell-Sanchez-Chamberlain.
In a few years time they could come close to Neymar-Suarez-Messi as all 3 are great footballers who work hard, possess pace, have the footballing intelligence and athleticism to interchange.

What the **** have we achieved in over 10 years of possession football? Wenger's most successful sides were at their most dangerous when defending an opposition corner because of lightning quick counter attacks and potent finishing. I couldn't give a **** if we have 60% of the ball or 40% of the ball. If with that 40% we create better chances and score more goals. Wenger, play every player in their best position and stop trying to be a smarty pants.
 

Emibury

Active Member
Don't drop, rotate. Different players may suit different games. Reduce injury chance by not allowing a player to play 2 or 3 games a week for a prolonged period of time.
 

GabeGooner

Active Member
How often does Cazorla/Coq control the middle? They haven't controlled anything over the past three fixtures and numerous times last season we were overrun in midfield by far inferior teams.

Cazorla is a luxury IMO and we should have bought a proper CM to phase him out this season.
We'll have to wait more than three games to see how it pans out this season, but they both controlled the middle all last season. Cazorla is fantastic in possession, and it's that attribute which allows Coquelin to excel in a more restricted role. Ramsey is entirely different; he's box-to-box and much more attacking than Cazorla.
 

RandyMarsh

Established Member
We'll have to wait more than three games to see how it pans out this season, but they both controlled the middle all last season. Cazorla is fantastic in possession, and it's that attribute which allows Coquelin to excel in a more restricted role. Ramsey is entirely different; he's box-to-box and much more attacking than Cazorla.
I wouldn't go as far as to say they controlled the middle all last season. Tottenham away, Burnley away, United away all spring to mind. Our midfield can get dominated quite easily actually.

At home, we seem to control the midfield better but have struggled to create chances/score for a while now.

I personally think we should be giving Ramsey-Coq another shot sooner rather than later. Before Ramsey literally think's he's Ronaldo. He'll be past the point of return by that point.
 

GabeGooner

Active Member
I wouldn't go as far as to say they controlled the middle all last season. Tottenham away, Burnley away, United away all spring to mind. Our midfield can get dominated quite easily actually.

At home, we seem to control the midfield better but have struggled to create chances/score for a while now.

I personally think we should be giving Ramsey-Coq another shot sooner rather than later. Before Ramsey literally think's he's Ronaldo. He'll be past the point of return by that point.
I wanted Cazorla gone in 2014/15 because I felt we had the players to replace him and we could better use the money we got for him. Now, though, he's proven to be a key player; there is no-one else to do what he does.

There's only really Rosicky and Özil who can keep possession as well as Cazorla, and only one of them can play deep (Rosicky). Cazorla is younger than Rosicky, so it makes no sense to let him go until we get a replacement (someone like Verratti – ha!).

I think Ramsey, on the other hand, alters the way we play – he's up and down, not close to Coquelin, and that influences how we control the midfield. We need Ramsey to develop his game more before he can do what Cazorla does. That'll take time, IMO.
 

clockwork orange

Blind faith in "LVG filoshophy"
PROFIL.png

I think tomorrow's Vuelta stage depicts Cazorla's shape this season.
 

RandyMarsh

Established Member
I wanted Cazorla gone in 2014/15 because I felt we had the players to replace him and we could better use the money we got for him. Now, though, he's proven to be a key player; there is no-one else to do what he does.

There's only really Rosicky and Özil who can keep possession as well as Cazorla, and only one of them can play deep (Rosicky). Cazorla is younger than Rosicky, so it makes no sense to let him go until we get a replacement (someone like Verratti – ha!).

I think Ramsey, on the other hand, alters the way we play – he's up and down, not close to Coquelin, and that influences how we control the midfield. We need Ramsey to develop his game more before he can do what Cazorla does. That'll take time, IMO.
Yeah fair points. I just can't remember any bad games we've had when Ramsey-Coq have been paired together. It all seems a bit exaggerated to me. I think it's more to do with Wenger trying to fit Ramsey, Cazorla and Özil into the same team and Ramsey is a lot better on the wing than Cazorla so he sets them up like that.

Ramsey's not as good of a controller as Cazorla but i don't think the difference in quality between Cazorla and Ramsey in CM is so great that we have to disrupt the balance of our team further up the pitch because of it.

Imo Ramsey was fine until he started being played further forward in that 4-1-4-1 formation last season and then later on on the wing. Think we just have to start developing the Ramsey-Coq partnership further so we can get back to playing a bloody winger on the wing again.
 

Big Poppa

Established Member
Trusted ⭐

Country: USA

Player:Saliba
I'm not necessarily talking about possession football as a primary style but more in terms of our inability to hold possession in the final third when we are progressing an attack if we were going to use that front 3 permanently.

Controversial and some shocks but I think our most balanced front 3 would be Campbell-Sanchez-Chamberlain.
In a few years time they could come close to Neymar-Suarez-Messi as all 3 are great footballers who work hard, possess pace, have the footballing intelligence and athleticism to interchange.

Sorry if I misunderstood your post. I just can't make sense of the logic that playing a midfielder on the wing makes us better balanced. You don't need to overload the middle of the pitch if you have an adequate balance of passing, strength and technique in midfield. We don't, and try to overcompensate by putting an extra midfielder on the pitch.

What looks like adding more balance is actually weakening ourselves in one area to make up for a weakness in another. How about we address the initial weakness in the first place? It's a massive bugbear of mine with AW.
 

GabeGooner

Active Member
Yeah fair points. I just can't remember any bad games we've had when Ramsey-Coq have been paired together. It all seems a bit exaggerated to me. I think it's more to do with Wenger trying to fit Ramsey, Cazorla and Özil into the same team and Ramsey is a lot better on the wing than Cazorla so he sets them up like that.

Ramsey's not as good of a controller as Cazorla but i don't think the difference in quality between Cazorla and Ramsey in CM is so great that we have to disrupt the balance of our team further up the pitch because of it.

Imo Ramsey was fine until he started being played further forward in that 4-1-4-1 formation last season and then later on on the wing. Think we just have to start developing the Ramsey-Coq partnership further so we can get back to playing a bloody winger on the wing again.
It's more about movement, really.

Cazorla stays close to Coquelin and is therefore always available for a pass. He also rarely loses the ball, so is a better candidate to play at CM.

Ramsey is box-to-box, so he's not always around for Coquelin to lay the ball off to. He's also less reliable in possession, which exposes Coquelin and the defence on the counter-attack.

Depending on who you play, you get something different in that role. Ramsey gives you movement, energy and more of an attacking threat, but he lowers your defensive protection. Cazorla is more balanced, and subsequently, he helps Coquelin have more of an impact.
 

Lilwizzle

Established Member
Oh my bad. Forgot we had Santi on the wing in the West Ham game. Can't say we didn't completely control the game in the midfield though. Everyone was just off form in general.
Id argue the same for the same half against Liverpool, no one can really hold their head high from that bar Cech. We controlled the game and the midfield in the second half.
 

Lilwizzle

Established Member
Caz-Coq, Rambo-Coq, both have their strengths and weaknesses. I don't think picking examples prove much, we've beaten some of the best teams around with the first partnership.

I think we were criminally exposed in the middle because of Özil. It was 2 v 4 at times, any pairing would struggle against Milner, Can, Lucas and Coutinho(sometimes). He was visibly deeper in the second probably due to Wengers instructions, and that's why we managed to get a foothold of the game
 

MrBump

Well-Known Member
Ramsey is the problem in our first team. Until Wenger and all the British boy next door lovers get this, nothing will change.
He needs to sit on the bench until he can show that he can shift Cazorla.
Cazorla showed last year consistently how good he plays at CM next to Coquelin.
He has better discipline and awareness
He has better distribution
He has better ball control
He has better vision
He has both feet

The only thing he doesn't have is running around over Ramsey. But a brain beats that all day long.

Ox showed what he can bring to the team in pre season. Many say he doesn't score enough.....
He hasn't scored enough because he hasn't played enough !
Go watch charity shield again.

The Wenger/Ramsey love affair is the problem.
 

Gooner Zig

AM's Resident Accountant
Trusted ⭐

Country: Canada
Cazorla is a midget and lacks physicality which doesn't cut the mustard in this league - also he can't tackle for ****.
 

law90026

Established Member
I think Ramsey gets a lot of stick for going forward yet people underrate how good his engine is. He has no problem getting back and covering without the ball, his stamina is phenomenal.

For Chelsea you often see Cesc get ahead of the ball when he's partnering Matic.
No one underrates his engine. However, even if he can run all day, unless he can freaking teleport, he's not going to be able to get back to cover his position if he's already further upfield than Giroud. That's the tactical ill-discipline that is a problem, nothing to do with his engine.
 

Rain Dance

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
Give me one game when Ramsey-Giroud-Gervinho were the front 3?

Replace Gervinho with Cazorla, I mistakenly remembered the wrong name.

I think you meant Ramsey-Gervinho-Podolksi whom I actually felt was a decent combination at first with Cazorla as the playmaker and Arteta partnering Diaby in the deeplying midfield positions but overall Gervinhos finishing was just too woeful and we lost Diaby to injury 6 games into the season causing us to tweak the team for months until we found a suitable balance again which wasn't until March 2013 after that defeat at white hart lane which saw us drop Sceszney, Vermalaen and Wilshere for Fabianski, koscielny and Rosicky.
it was mostly Podolski-Giroud-Gervinho or Podolski/Cazorla-Gervinho-Theo.

And here is a thread from 2012, on A-M reminding you how woeful Ramsey in RW was
https://arsenal-mania.com/forum/threads/aaron-ramsey-on-the-right-track.26644/page-9
 

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