English Football 2016/17

[carlito'sway]

That Mike Dean is still a referee is shocking.

 

[Gooner_Delhi]

 

[Giroud]

Laughable stuff from Merse and co again on Sky Sports. So this "geezer" brought Estoril into the Portuguese first division and qualified for Europe in their first season before losing their best players, rebuilding and qualifying again. They're now a solid established mid table team in the Liga NOS. Then he went to Sporting and won the Taca de Portugal which was their first trophy in years and set the team up for Jorge Jesus to deliver their best league campaign in which they would have been deserved winners. After that he broke records at Olympiakos and showed they could compete in the Champions League when beating us a couple of years ago. And they're saying he should prove himself in the Championship before being offered a job in the PL? Nonsense.

Then they blame foreign managers for taking jobs off young English coaches. How about blame the clubs that keep appointing rubbish managers like Allardyce, Pardew, Sherwood and the likes? They are no more than short term fixes to survive relegation before they stall and get sacked a year or 2 later. None of them have shown the ability to develop a club and take them forward but keep getting jobs. Blame the clubs for appointing rubbish like them.

 

[Vinci]

Laughable stuff from Merse and co again on Sky Sports. So this "geezer" brought Estoril into the Portuguese first division and qualified for Europe in their first season before losing their best players, rebuilding and qualifying again. They're now a solid established mid table team in the Liga NOS. Then he went to Sporting and won the Taca de Portugal which was their first trophy in years and set the team up for Jorge Jesus to deliver their best league campaign in which they would have been deserved winners. After that he broke records at Olympiakos and showed they could compete in the Champions League when beating us a couple of years ago. And they're saying he should prove himself in the Championship before being offered a job in the PL? Nonsense.

Then they blame foreign managers for taking jobs off young English coaches. How about blame the clubs that keep appointing rubbish managers like Allardyce, Pardew, Sherwood and the likes? They are no more than short term fixes to survive relegation before they stall and get sacked a year or 2 later. None of them have shown the ability to develop a club and take them forward but keep getting jobs. Blame the clubs for appointing rubbish like them.

There simply aren't a lot of great, young English managers. There's Eddie How and Sean Dyche, but beyond that it isn't too exciting. Guys like Pulis, Allardyce, Pardew, Moyes, etc., know how to keep a side in the Premier League generally, but are hardly going to move the team up beyond that.

 

[GDeep™]

There is a level of manager coming in from abroad and getting chances that an English manager putting his work in, isn't.

Bob Bradley for example. There are managers in the lower leagues better than Bradley.

 

[GDeep™]

In other countries you feel there is still an emphasis on recruiting one of your own, Spain, Italy, Germany etc.

England is maybe one of the first big leagues where a foreigner is looked at before a Brit. I'm not sure thats only because there is a lack of decent young managers.

15 years ago, Everton would've gone down the leagues and hired David Moyes. Today Everton only wanted to hire a certain type of manager, a Brit from the lower leagues didn't fit into that.

Not that Merson is talking about a Koeman anyway.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

One of the deciding factors to go for a foreign manager is because they have connections and an idea of the market abroad where foreign players are cheaper to get. British players generally are expensive while not being that good in terms of technique and tactical understanding in most cases. British managers themselves don't go abroad for jobs as often as they should since they earn a lot here already and don't want to fit in a foreign culture.

I think the biggest obstacle is the fact that everything is so great in English football bubble and living in it. Handsome pay, media attention, resources to basically buy your way out of everything etc etc. Its anti development when you can just throw money at the problem instead of developing. Affects the players and managers.

 

[BBF]

Laughable stuff from Merse and co again on Sky Sports. So this "geezer" brought Estoril into the Portuguese first division and qualified for Europe in their first season before losing their best players, rebuilding and qualifying again. They're now a solid established mid table team in the Liga NOS. Then he went to Sporting and won the Taca de Portugal which was their first trophy in years and set the team up for Jorge Jesus to deliver their best league campaign in which they would have been deserved winners. After that he broke records at Olympiakos and showed they could compete in the Champions League when beating us a couple of years ago. And they're saying he should prove himself in the Championship before being offered a job in the PL? Nonsense.

Then they blame foreign managers for taking jobs off young English coaches. How about blame the clubs that keep appointing rubbish managers like Allardyce, Pardew, Sherwood and the likes? They are no more than short term fixes to survive relegation before they stall and get sacked a year or 2 later. None of them have shown the ability to develop a club and take them forward but keep getting jobs. Blame the clubs for appointing rubbish like them.

As much as I'd like to have a good laugh at Paul Merson, he is right to an extent, what does he know about the premier league? That's not to suggest he's a bad manager though, but it's a completely different ball game to what foreigners expect. Even Guardiola said that the other day.

I don't know about what this geezer did in Portugal, but winning at Olympiakos in a rigged league isn't an achievement. When their budget is 10 tiers above the second placed team, and they openly rig it, it's not an achievement. Would I give the Hull job to an unproved Englishman? **** no. But I also agree to an extent that British managers aren't really given much of a shot anymore. They should be earning their badges and progressing on the right level just like everyone else in Europe. People should be starting on the lower levels, regardless of nationality.

 

[BBF]

You look at Garry Monk who got sacked by Swansea within a year, he's now done what no one thought possible, and is on the brink of getting Leeds promoted. That's where he should have started from the beginning, and who would have thought Garry Monk would turn out to be somewhat decent? Yeah English managers are generally crap, but the opportunity isn't there, and we watch a league where we receive the best imports all in one league. The Portuguese league might have 2 leading managers who happen to be Portuguese within their league, England have at least 8-10 leading managers from foreign leagues in theirs.

It's easy to be like "hur dur English managers are crap, they'd be leading top teams if they were any good" but that's not how it works. The premier league environment isn't right for British managers or start up managers of any nationality.

 

[Giroud]

As much as I'd like to have a good laugh at Paul Merson, he is right to an extent, what does he know about the premier league? That's not to suggest he's a bad manager though, but it's a completely different ball game to what foreigners expect. Even Guardiola said that the other day.

I don't know about what this geezer did in Portugal, but winning at Olympiakos in a rigged league isn't an achievement. When their budget is 10 tiers above the second placed team, and they openly rig it, it's not an achievement. Would I give the Hull job to an unproved Englishman? **** no. But I also agree to an extent that British managers aren't really given much of a shot anymore. They should be earning their badges and progressing on the right level just like everyone else in Europe. People should be starting on the lower levels, regardless of nationality.

In his first press conference he spoke about learning English while in Greece because his goal was to manage in the Premier League. That was over a year ago so it's likely he's invested some time in researching the league and you're just as bad as Merse and Thompson labeling him like that. Plenty of managers fail at dominant clubs however Silva took them to a new level breaking records.

Silva started in the second division in Portugal so he's already experienced the lower levels of football and built his career from there. How is a manager who brought Estoril to the first division and helped them qualify for Europe twice, successful at two clubs much bigger than Hull City unproven? Hull should be honoured that a manager with a CV like that is now their manager. What English manager available could boast that pedigree?

You can't blame Hull for not giving English coaches a chance. They tried with Bruce and he couldn't establish them in the Premier League, neither could Phelan. Can't blame them now for going for a foreign coach.

If young English coaches aren't getting a chance the blame should be put on stale managers like Allardyce, Moyes and Pardew who clearly are inept at developing a club and taking them forward in the current climate yet keep getting jobs for a year or 2 before getting the sack. These guys aren't up to managing in the Premier League and are responsible for taking up jobs from young English managers coaching in the Championship, not highly proven European managers like Silva.

 

[Giroud]

It's easy to be like "hur dur English managers are crap, they'd be leading top teams if they were any good" but that's not how it works. The premier league environment isn't right for British managers or start up managers of any nationality.

Don't make it out like the Premier League is special. No top league is easy for any manager to start in. Silva proved himself at the lower levels before two successful stints at big European clubs and is well qualified to manage in the Premier League at this stage.

 

[Giroud]

There is a level of manager coming in from abroad and getting chances that an English manager putting his work in, isn't.

Bob Bradley for example. There are managers in the lower leagues better than Bradley.

I agree about Bradley but I also think Guidolin was harshly sacked. They had a tough schedule and were better than what the results showed and in time would have turned things around. They were shocking altogether under Bradley.

Care to share some more examples?

In other countries you feel there is still an emphasis on recruiting one of your own, Spain, Italy, Germany etc.

England is maybe one of the first big leagues where a foreigner is looked at before a Brit. I'm not sure thats only because there is a lack of decent young managers.

15 years ago, Everton would've gone down the leagues and hired David Moyes. Today Everton only wanted to hire a certain type of manager, a Brit from the lower leagues didn't fit into that.

Not that Merson is talking about a Koeman anyway.

English is basically the world language and because most people in Western Europe grow up learning English as a second language managing in the Premier League is always going to be an option. On the other hand the language barrier means working abroad is not an option for English coaches. With the money in the Premier League attracting foreign coaches too it's definitely a harder market for English coaches to break into but it's complete rubbish to suggest that clubs look at foreigners before Brits when average managers like Allardyce, Pardew, McClaren etc keep getting jobs.

15 years ago the world wasn't as globalised as it is now. Less Europeans spoke English and there was less money in the league so not as many foreign coaches were attracted to the jobs. Today is a completely different environment with quality options from abroad available and willing to work in England so clubs like Everton don't have to go a look in the lower leagues for coaches.

 

[carter777]

 

[Rimaal]

Man U v Hull EFL semi-final;

Ibra ill and not playing, otherwise a stong team from Man U.
Pogba shoulder barge on Henriksen just put Henriksen out of play for the duration.

 

[asukru]

A good deal for Everton I would say

 

[BBF]

In his first press conference he spoke about learning English while in Greece because his goal was to manage in the Premier League. That was over a year ago so it's likely he's invested some time in researching the league and you're just as bad as Merse and Thompson labeling him like that. Plenty of managers fail at dominant clubs however Silva took them to a new level breaking records.

Silva started in the second division in Portugal so he's already experienced the lower levels of football and built his career from there. How is a manager who brought Estoril to the first division and helped them qualify for Europe twice, successful at two clubs much bigger than Hull City unproven? Hull should be honoured that a manager with a CV like that is now their manager. What English manager available could boast that pedigree?

You can't blame Hull for not giving English coaches a chance. They tried with Bruce and he couldn't establish them in the Premier League, neither could Phelan. Can't blame them now for going for a foreign coach.

If young English coaches aren't getting a chance the blame should be put on stale managers like Allardyce, Moyes and Pardew who clearly are inept at developing a club and taking them forward in the current climate yet keep getting jobs for a year or 2 before getting the sack. These guys aren't up to managing in the Premier League and are responsible for taking up jobs from young English managers coaching in the Championship, not highly proven European managers like Silva.

You're quoting a lot of stuff I didn't even say, or agree with Merse on.

The alleged "best manager in the world" Guardiola spent time learning more English, studying the game and dropped 140m within the summer on an already stacked squad... Where's he now? Like I said, he said it was a completely different ball game and he's trying to adapt to how it is in English. What does Silva know about the Premier League? He's learning to speak English... That's all you or me know. Like I said, that's not to suggest he's a bad manager.

What he's done is impressive in Portugal, but Portugal isn't the same level as the Premier league, and your average mid table manager in Portugal probably isn't anywhere near your average manager in the premier league. If that were the case they'd naturally be more managerial imports. That being said, the environment for English managers is naturally within the English football leagues, and like I said, they should be getting their experience there. No one here said anything about him being "unproven" or whatever you're quoting. The only thing I agreed with Merse on was that there isn't much opportunity for young English managers.

As for the "blaming the problem" bit, no, I wouldn't necessarily blame the stale British managers either. I'd blame the commercial, capitalist and competitive environment the Premier League breeds into appointing these types of managers. These types of managers do well because they know the Premier League and they're experienced. They're not particularly good managers, but they know it... That's a huge advantage in the game.

 

[BBF]

Don't make it out like the Premier League is special. No top league is easy for any manager to start in. Silva proved himself at the lower levels before two successful stints at big European clubs and is well qualified to manage in the Premier League at this stage.

What kind of post is this? The Premier League is the most watched league in the world, has the most money in it, and is undeniably in the top 3 tiers of Football. Managing some midtable team in the top two tiers of Portugal is nowhere near the same level as managing the top two tiers of English football.

I don't how you could label his stint at Olympiakos as a major success either. I follow that league because I'm a fan of Panathinaikos and Olympiakos has a history of doping, bribing, and have financial support from mafia-level groups. The same budget that triples the second best finishing team. You just can't take it seriously.

But none of this is actually the point. The point is that the Premier League is a different environment to what most expect. Your average footballing hipster will go on and on about how easy it is to adapt as a manager, and will put out a few names like Mourinho or Pochettino etc etc. Some are undeniably impressive, but most also come from highly respected backgrounds. But at the end of the day, the numbers, and by numbers I mean sackings... just aren't in favour of it. For every success story as a manager there's another 10-15 sackings behind them.

 

[novarek]

The Premier prides itself on having the best the world can offer (bar the cowards Cristiano and Messi), like it or not that is the PL's identity and the reason they can throw so much money around. It's no surprise that a manager that can prove his worth elsewhere in easier pastures gets a shot over the guy with a decent manager career in the lower english leagues.

Like Dyche or Howe, the best bet for an english manager to stay around the PL would be to carry a lower league team up there.

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

The premier league is universal today. That is the reality now.

 

[Giroud]

Ok fair enough @BBF , you don't agree with Merse ignoring his point about English managers not getting a chance. I get you now.

It isn't just the Premier League that is hard for any start up manager. Any of the top leagues in Europe are tough for any new coach and the Premier League isn't special in that regard. It has the money but on tactical level it's miles behind La Liga and the Bundesliga and in footballing terms is not anything special.