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$tan Kroenke Becomes Soul Owner

Maybe

You're wrong, no?
1st of all, we don't have the same freedom to pick young players like Ajax, our scouting pool is more limited. Their competition to get young talents in Dutch league is only a few.
Ajax's freedom is similar to Juventus, Bayern Munchen or Manchester United. They are incredibly famous in Netherland, we aren't as famous as them in England.
Hard to swallow pill, but our brand today aren't as interesting to young talents compared to the 2000's
2nd. British young talents cost more than other leagues' young talents. Making them having low resell value.
furthermore, they can just walk away by refusing a new contract for a better pay.
3rd. We have been in a position where you suggested, our squad was one of the youngest averaged squad during Wenger era, I think it was during Cesc era, ended with players wanting to leave as soon as a good offer came in. We were never settle as a team cause we constantly need to replace a talent
4th. - Low resale value of experienced, average and overpaid players is hurting us more than anything else. -
Are we an economic trading company? or are we a football club aiming for champion? If we are an economic trading company, emphasizing on low resale value is correct but if we are aiming to be champions, then we cut our loses and move them away even without getting even.

5th. What's hurting us is the lack of desire to be a champion, to measure everything in profit, to forget tactical approach worth more than value of a player, to forget clubs with less capital capable to perform cause they have desire to win.
We are one of the TOP 10 RICHEST club in the world ffs.


That's BULSHIT, Kroenke is a part of the management, his son(s) are the head of management team. He doesn't get a free pass cause he doesn't know how football works.
1. We have the freedom to take young players from UK and from abroad, and it's something we've been doing for many years.
2. England is not the only country in the world that has talented players, and even if you buy more expensive talents from UK, they usually easily sellable
3. Everything is a straight line for you. Yes, at the time we were not in a position to offer good money to out best players. Now, we are in a position to offer huge money to our best players. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I've said combination of talented youth and top quality experience. I didn't say we need to have 15 youngsters in our team, but having 7-8 of them and 7-8 more experienced players is a good balance. It would put us in a position where we can pay and keep top quality and sell young players that didn't show enough.
4. How exactly do you think we can be a top team if we don't have quality financial management? One way is Man City way, the other way is being smart and efficient with what we have
5. We are, by saying that you are just confirming my theory. We have budget of 450m and we spend all of it. Kroenke didn't take 200m from our budget and let us play with 250. Whole budge is available and it's down to the management how we use it. We have huge wage bill, we've spent 100m on garbage players that we can't sell and we don't want to keep and all that is to get 5th place. I can assure you that Kroenke didn't waste money on Xhaka, Mustafi, Perez and Elneny, Kroenke didn't give new contracts to players that don't add anything to our game. It's down to the management and the only reasonable thing he did is to fire all of them and bring new management in.

Kroenke is a business owner, and as you say, he doesn't know anything about football. So why would he have any influence on dealing with football related things? If warren Buffet buys a chemical factory in Europe, do you think he should know everything about chemistry? I would say no, he should hire people who know a thing or two about that field, exactly what Kroenke did with hiring Raul.
 

Rain Dance

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
1. We have the freedom to take young players from UK and from abroad, and it's something we've been doing for many years.
Nope, compared to Ajax, Bayern Munchen and Juventus, Arsenal's coverage is far lower. They literally have the whole country as a youth scouting ground and have set up football schools all over the world. Arsenal are behind Manchester United and Liverpool in England on youth and probably behind on Southampton too, since some of our players like Theo and Ox came from their youth
We were able to poach youth star players from Barcelona because UK has a lower age for young player to sign a pro deal.
Seriously, if you really think our youth scouting system is anywhere near as good as Ajax youth scout system, I think you need to learn more about Ajax
2. England is not the only country in the world that has talented players, and even if you buy more expensive talents from UK, they usually easily sellable
Nope, British players tend to stay in Britain and move around in EPL clubs. This is a fact that was discussed already several years ago. https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...feb/03/english-footballers-europe-ashley-cole

And moving a player from Arsenal to other club is difficult cause
1. We do not want players would move toward a rival but good player would only move toward another good club as Arsenal has a reputation as a top 4 club, moving to a lower stature club is not good for their career. i.e RvP, Sanchez & Giroud
2. Wage issue, and even if wage is not a problem these days, point number 1 is still the biggest hurdle
Also, buying foreign talents mean adaptability problem, happened to Jose Reyes, Arshavin and several more players who failed to adapt to EPL (these also happen more in youth players)

3. Everything is a straight line for you. Yes, at the time we were not in a position to offer good money to out best players. Now, we are in a position to offer huge money to our best players. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I've said combination of talented youth and top quality experience. I didn't say we need to have 15 youngsters in our team, but having 7-8 of them and 7-8 more experienced players is a good balance. It would put us in a position where we can pay and keep top quality and sell young players that didn't show enough.
Yes it a straight line, cause it's just a simple answer. We have been there, we done that, and we are still doing that with some adjustments.
You do not see the problem with this hypothesis? Who would buy young players who didn't show enough? Lesser league clubs. And lesser league clubs pay less.
It's no difference than what we have been doing each year, do you really think the club never thought about this? We have been fielding young players alongside veterans for years.
Also, how do you guarantee the 7-8 young players are capable to be a consistent performers?
You can't, 1 or 2 consistent young players are possible but 7-8 can't be guaranteed
4. How exactly do you think we can be a top team if we don't have quality financial management? One way is Man City way, the other way is being smart and efficient with what we have
Being smart and efficient with what we have? We need a total overhaul to many areas of our team especially the defense. Splurge money and overhaul first WIN EPL or at least be a title contender, afterward we can go back to penny pinching ways.

5. We are, by saying that you are just confirming my theory. We have budget of 450m and we spend all of it. Kroenke didn't take 200m from our budget and let us play with 250. Whole budge is available and it's down to the management how we use it. We have huge wage bill, we've spent 100m on garbage players that we can't sell and we don't want to keep and all that is to get 5th place.
What theory did I confirmed? You wanted us to stay as self sustained as possible and this is what we get.
Our excess garbage came from seasons before this when Kroenke didn't give Wenger transfer fund he needed other than the money he got from selling players.

I can assure you that Kroenke didn't waste money on Xhaka, Mustafi, Perez and Elneny, Kroenke didn't give new contracts to players that don't add anything to our game. It's down to the management and the only reasonable thing he did is to fire all of them and bring new management in.
That's actually Kroenke's job and responsibility as director and owner. And I heard Ivan Gazidis moved to AC Milan cause he got a bigger offer, not because Stan fired him

Kroenke is a business owner, and as you say, he doesn't know anything about football. So why would he have any influence on dealing with football related things? If warren Buffet buys a chemical factory in Europe, do you think he should know everything about chemistry? I would say no, he should hire people who know a thing or two about that field, exactly what Kroenke did with hiring Raul.

And I can assure you if the people Warren buffet's hired to run a chemical factory ****ed up and blew up the factory cause Warren Buffet didn't invest enough to change that factory old faulty machinery, the first name people call out is Warren Buffet.

That's what being an owner is, you don't just sleep and let your underlings churn out money, you need to understand the industry and the mechanics involved. That includes investing on the tools for the factory aka the players for Arsenal
Kroenke doesn't even watch Arsenal on a regular basis.
PS : I thought (and googled a bit to check) Gazidis brought Raul to Arsenal...
 
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Maybe

You're wrong, no?
Nope, compared to Ajax, Bayern Munchen and Juventus, Arsenal's coverage is far lower. They literally have the whole country as a youth scouting ground and have set up football schools all over the world. Arsenal are behind Manchester United and Liverpool in England on youth and probably behind on Southampton too, since some of our players like Theo and Ox came from their youth
We were able to poach youth star players from Barcelona because UK has a lower age for young player to sign a pro deal.
Seriously, if you really think our youth scouting system is anywhere near as good as Ajax youth scout system, I think you need to learn more about Ajax

Nope, British players tend to stay in Britain and move around in EPL clubs. This is a fact that was discussed already several years ago. https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...feb/03/english-footballers-europe-ashley-cole

And moving a player from Arsenal to other club is difficult cause
1. We do not want players would move toward a rival but good player would only move toward another good club as Arsenal has a reputation as a top 4 club, moving to a lower stature club is not good for their career. i.e RvP, Sanchez & Giroud
2. Wage issue, and even if wage is not a problem these days, point number 1 is still the biggest hurdle
Also, buying foreign talents mean adaptability problem, happened to Jose Reyes, Arshavin and several more players who failed to adapt to EPL (these also happen more in youth players)

Yes it a straight line, cause it's just a simple answer. We have been there, we done that, and we are still doing that with some adjustments.
You do not see the problem with this hypothesis? Who would buy young players who didn't show enough? Lesser league clubs. And lesser league clubs pay less.
It's no difference than what we have been doing each year, do you really think the club never thought about this? We have been fielding young players alongside veterans for years.
Also, how do you guarantee the 7-8 young players are capable to be a consistent performers?
You can't, 1 or 2 consistent young players are possible but 7-8 can't be guaranteed

Being smart and efficient with what we have? We need a total overhaul to many areas of our team especially the defense. Splurge money and overhaul first WIN EPL or at least be a title contender, afterward we can go back to penny pinching ways.


What theory did I confirmed? You wanted us to stay as self sustained as possible and this is what we get.
Our excess garbage came from seasons before this when Kroenke didn't give Wenger transfer fund he needed other than the money he got from selling players.


That's actually Kroenke's job and responsibility as director and owner. And I heard Ivan Gazidis moved to AC Milan cause he got a bigger offer, not because Stan fired him



And I can assure you if the people Warren buffet's hired to run a chemical factory ****ed up and blew up the factory cause Warren Buffet didn't invest enough to change that factory old faulty machinery, the first name people call out is Warren Buffet.

That's what being an owner is, you don't just sleep and let your underlings churn out money, you need to understand the industry and the mechanics involved. That includes investing on the tools for the factory aka the players for Arsenal
Kroenke doesn't even watch Arsenal on a regular basis.
PS : I thought (and googled a bit to check) Gazidis brought Raul to Arsenal...
I don't really see what are you trying to prove with Reyes and Arshavin and our scouting network. The whole modern era of Arsenal was built on scouting network and foreign players. For every Reyes, Arshavin and Vela we have players like Henry, Fabregas and RvP who did adjust to UK and had a great career here. (From my experience, UK is the easiest country to adapt to)
You are still going with your argument that 10-15 years ago we couldn't keep our young players because we couldn't offer them money, which is true, but I don't see why you can't understand that we can offer them money now as it's clear that we have multiple contracts from 150k-350k.
Everybody want's an overhaul here, but there is not a lot to sell, and the reason for that is that we didn't produce any additional value over the last couple of years.
I will repeat myself here, Kroenke didn't ban investments here (yet), we spend the whole budget every year. If you can't understand that, I'm afraid there's not much to discuss in that case.
You should be more specific with what do you want from Kroenke. He allows us to spend our budget and he doesn't interfere with football side of business. The only thing he can do more here is to come and watch our games, if that helps.
 

Flying Okapis

Most Well-Known Member
Have to agree with the above regarding the club spending money of late, people make out that we spend nothing when in reality;

Auba: 60m
Laca: 50m
Xhaka: 40m
Mustafi: 36m
Özil: 42m
Sanchez: 38m
Sokratis: 14m
Torreira: 27m
Leno: 22m
Perez: 18m
Elneny: 11m
Chambers: 18m
Welbeck: 18m
Gabriel: 13m
Debuchy: 13m

That is a random list of some of the last 5yrs of players in, I'm not claiming they are good or bad buys all I'm stating is thats over £400mil on transfer fees alone, we have spent money, we have just spent money poorly, very poorly with players moving on for low resale value or on a free due to contracts and bad management, none of which is really down to Kroenke personally, there is no way he would know Mustafi is a bad buy etc.

You also have to remember the times we had the Bendtners and Denilsons etc who were on decent wages and were at the club for a long long time as no other club would touch them, the club has been pissing money down the drain since we moved to the Emirates.
 

scytheavatar

Established Member
I will repeat myself here, Kroenke didn't ban investments here (yet), we spend the whole budget every year. If you can't understand that, I'm afraid there's not much to discuss in that case.
You should be more specific with what do you want from Kroenke. He allows us to spend our budget and he doesn't interfere with football side of business. The only thing he can do more here is to come and watch our games, if that helps.

I want Kroenke to tell Raul, Emery and co that either they start competing in the league or they will be sacked. He should have already told that to Gazidis and Wenger like years ago. Kroenke shouldn't tell our management how to run a club, but he should set targets and demands for the management to meet. Tell them that if they need him to pump money into the club then they bloody well should be putting him on gunpoint to pony up the money. If Kroenke doesn't have the hunger for success then how can you expect the players and management to be hungry?
 

Mo Britain

Doom Monger
To justify Kronke's "business model" now by looking back at a time when there was just one club wealthier than ours in the league is to say that horse-drawn carriages might still have a future within a transport system. To exculpate him as if our plummeting down the league had not happened since he took control is merely Stockholm syndrome.
 

Flying Okapis

Most Well-Known Member
To justify Kronke's "business model" now by looking back at a time when there was just one club wealthier than ours in the league is to say that horse-drawn carriages might still have a future within a transport system. To exculpate him as if our plummeting down the league had not happened since he took control is merely Stockholm syndrome.

Kroenke has his fair share of responsibility in our demise however to simply put all the blame at his door is wrong. You also cannot expect him to invest his own money, outside of the oil clubs not many do, the money injected into clubs is usually a loan from the owner at favourable rates, its not free money.

The money has been there, the money has also been spent, its not going to be more than the oil clubs and powerhouses.
 

Maybe

You're wrong, no?
I want Kroenke to tell Raul, Emery and co that either they start competing in the league or they will be sacked. He should have already told that to Gazidis and Wenger like years ago. Kroenke shouldn't tell our management how to run a club, but he should set targets and demands for the management to meet. Tell them that if they need him to pump money into the club then they bloody well should be putting him on gunpoint to pony up the money. If Kroenke doesn't have the hunger for success then how can you expect the players and management to be hungry?
That is definitely the part that I agree with you about Kroenke. I wouldn't go that far that he should speak with Emery, but if the business as a whole doesn't work well (which has happened for the last 10 years), I would like to see new faces with fresh ideas on top of our club.
 

Mo Britain

Doom Monger
Kroenke has his fair share of responsibility in our demise however to simply put all the blame at his door is wrong. You also cannot expect him to invest his own money, outside of the oil clubs not many do, the money injected into clubs is usually a loan from the owner at favourable rates, its not free money.

The money has been there, the money has also been spent, its not going to be more than the oil clubs and powerhouses.
Actually I can. Because it is his club so he has not just an opportunity but arguably a responsibility. A football club is not a chemical factory, I don't see 60,000 turning up every other week to cheer a chemical factory, or to buy a shirt with it colours, or dvds of it etc etc etc.

What we have here is in fact the obverse of what you are suggesting, we have an owner who HAS used some of his money in order to acquire the huge assets and revenue generated by a football club, and then uses said club to get free money in leverage for his borrowing elsewhere. Not a million miles from what the Glazers did at Manu and arguably worse because the Glazers (incompetents as they might be) appreciate there is a link between success on the pitch and success off it, which link Kronke has denied in public.
 

GoonerJeeves

Established Member
Trusted ⭐

Country: Norway
For all the faults of Kroenke, he has not bought the club by straddling it with debts like Glazers. That comparison is not a fair one.

The crux of the matter is that we will most likely never be able to compete with City under the current ownership. There simply isn't enough money.
 

pigge

#Pigge #Equality

Player:Martinelli
For all the faults of Kroenke, he has not bought the club by straddling it with debts like Glazers. That comparison is not a fair one.

The crux of the matter is that we will most likely never be able to compete with City under the current ownership. There simply isn't enough money.
We probably can tbh. We need to moneyball this sh1t.
A good structure with a clear purpose to what it should achieve (i.e a certain kind of football that sould work at the top), a manager with vision, ideas and competence aligned with the vision. THE best scouts avaible and the structure/staff and connections to develop younger players within our academy and through other clubs.

I believe we are trying for something like this atm but it will take time!
 

Flying Okapis

Most Well-Known Member
Actually I can. Because it is his club so he has not just an opportunity but arguably a responsibility. A football club is not a chemical factory, I don't see 60,000 turning up every other week to cheer a chemical factory, or to buy a shirt with it colours, or dvds of it etc etc etc.

What we have here is in fact the obverse of what you are suggesting, we have an owner who HAS used some of his money in order to acquire the huge assets and revenue generated by a football club, and then uses said club to get free money in leverage for his borrowing elsewhere. Not a million miles from what the Glazers did at Manu and arguably worse because the Glazers (incompetents as they might be) appreciate there is a link between success on the pitch and success off it, which link Kronke has denied in public.

Its a business purchase he hasn't bought the club as a fan, but yeah its not a chemical factory (strange comparison).

Ok so he purchased the club with Kroenke money but its extremely different to injecting cash available for transfers. His purchase of the club is an investment for him, when he decides to sell he would plan and I imagine has done his research that the sale of the club will return the money he paid for it back to him and then some, as well as making money in duration of his ownership.

Injecting money into the club for transfers is not the same, investing his own money into transfers would be a risk for him to take especially with the return we get on resale value of players, that you cannot expect him to do. Could you imagine how wasteful it would have been for him to invest in the signings of Mustafi and Özil, surely the club using its own money for transfers is better than a Kroenke loan which would come with fee's, interest and a repayment scheme in his favour?
 

Flying Okapis

Most Well-Known Member
We probably can tbh. We need to moneyball this sh1t.
A good structure with a clear purpose to what it should achieve (i.e a certain kind of football that sould work at the top), a manager with vision, ideas and competence aligned with the vision. THE best scouts avaible and the structure/staff and connections to develop younger players within our academy and through other clubs.

I believe we are trying for something like this atm but it will take time!

I get what your saying with trying to find a new route to go down, just want to highlight a few points on 'moneyball', as good as it was and how it worked I believe there is also a lot of failed attempts at it.

I think you need to find a balance for it to work, that MLB scenario is probably similar to Leicester winning the league, its a one off and not a successful route to take consistently.
 

pigge

#Pigge #Equality

Player:Martinelli
I get what your saying with trying to find a new route to go down, just want to highlight a few points on 'moneyball', as good as it was and how it worked I believe there is also a lot of failed attempts at it.
I think you need to find a balance for it to work, that MLB scenario is probably similar to Leicester winning the league, its a one off and not a successful route to take consistently.
Sure, but there are Good examples of it working in atletico madrid, dortmund, pool/Sp**s (atm att least)
 

Mo Britain

Doom Monger
Its a business purchase he hasn't bought the club as a fan, but yeah its not a chemical factory (strange comparison).

Ok so he purchased the club with Kroenke money but its extremely different to injecting cash available for transfers. His purchase of the club is an investment for him, when he decides to sell he would plan and I imagine has done his research that the sale of the club will return the money he paid for it back to him and then some, as well as making money in duration of his ownership.

Injecting money into the club for transfers is not the same, investing his own money into transfers would be a risk for him to take especially with the return we get on resale value of players, that you cannot expect him to do. Could you imagine how wasteful it would have been for him to invest in the signings of Mustafi and Özil, surely the club using its own money for transfers is better than a Kroenke loan which would come with fee's, interest and a repayment scheme in his favour?

I didn't invent the comparison, an earlier poster said a football club was a business same as a chemical factory.

If he didn't have an appetite for the risks and rewards of a volatile sport like football then the answer is simply "don't invest". The industry is not going to change to suit him so ultimately it will be a sporting failure and we will pay the price of our team becoming a third-rate outfit.

As I said, I don't want his money. I want him to go. He can make his money on the sale and go. Others will then take over with an interest in investing the money he doesn't want to invest. This is not his scene and it's mutual he's not wanted here.

Maybe when we clock in at 10th regularly you will understand my point of view, if you're still here. I suspect this place will be rather less busy then.
 

Sanchez11

Nobody Is Coming!

Country: England
For all the faults of Kroenke, he has not bought the club by straddling it with debts like Glazers. That comparison is not a fair one.

The crux of the matter is that we will most likely never be able to compete with City under the current ownership. There simply isn't enough money.
Liverpool have proved that with shrewd business you can compete. Stan, Ivan and Wenger are all to blame imo.
 

Gervais

Established Member
Any business owner worth their salt will make a capital investment, or at least rejig certain aspects of their business in order to give it every opportunity to be successful.

Kroenke doesn't even come to our games, him and his son have absolutely no dealings with the club for a good 95% of the season. That is not how any business owner should operate, never mind one that owns a business worth about £2bn.

Arsenal is an asset to Kroenke. Nothing more, nothing less. He has proven over the last 11 years of being an investor and majority shareholder, that he has no intention of seeing this club succeed on the pitch.

You cannot run a successful business if you're not producing a successful product and Arsenal will continue to suffer until the current board of directors (minus Ken Friar) are ****ed off.
 

TheEconomist

Established Member
For all the faults of Kroenke, he has not bought the club by straddling it with debts like Glazers. That comparison is not a fair one.

The crux of the matter is that we will most likely never be able to compete with City under the current ownership. There simply isn't enough money.
Sorry but I have to disagree with the essence of what you are saying here. You are correct that he didn't buy the club by saddling it with debt, but since buying Arsenal he has taken out debt elsewhere using Arsenal's bank balance as collateral. We have more money in the bank than any other PL club (200m+) and we can't use it because Kroenke's other business interests prevent us from doing so.

We have enough money, we wouldn't even need his own cash if he would just release the cash that we have generated ourselves. To say we simply don't have the money just isn't true. We do have it - we can't use it because of Kroenke
 

Let's play Aubamawang

Well-Known Member
For all the faults of Kroenke, he has not bought the club by straddling it with debts like Glazers. That comparison is not a fair one.

The crux of the matter is that we will most likely never be able to compete with City under the current ownership. There simply isn't enough money.
Didn't Knoenke leverage the club's assets to get a bridge loan to pay off Usmanov for his shares? No better than the Glazers really.
 

Flying Okapis

Most Well-Known Member
I didn't invent the comparison, an earlier poster said a football club was a business same as a chemical factory.

If he didn't have an appetite for the risks and rewards of a volatile sport like football then the answer is simply "don't invest". The industry is not going to change to suit him so ultimately it will be a sporting failure and we will pay the price of our team becoming a third-rate outfit.

As I said, I don't want his money. I want him to go. He can make his money on the sale and go. Others will then take over with an interest in investing the money he doesn't want to invest. This is not his scene and it's mutual he's not wanted here.

Maybe when we clock in at 10th regularly you will understand my point of view, if you're still here. I suspect this place will be rather less busy then.

Its a business investment though, his team or whatever clearly researched the global expansion of football and the forever going up TV and sponsorship deals etc, he was always going to make money on his return which is smart business.

Look, I'd rather he sold to someone else as well, I'm by no means a fan of the guy nor do I want him as the owner, but he is and as bad as we have become since he took over I just don't think it is entirely his fault, yes he put the club in the wrong hands but the people who made the football decisions ie transfers, contract renewals werent Kroenke.

As for your "Maybe when we clock in at 10th regularly you will understand my point of view, if you're still here. I suspect this place will be rather less busy then", grow up, I've been here longer than you if you want to start measuring.. ffs, we're all fans here lets not try and one up each other and prove who is a super fan or most loyal, we all have our support for the club.
 
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