Who among Ramsey/Özil/Cazorla should be dropped?

Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by sammy89, Aug 9, 2015.

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Who among Ramsey/Özil/Cazorla should be dropped?

  1. Özil

  2. Ramsey

  3. Cazorla

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. RandyMarsh

    RandyMarsh Established Member

    If our RW atm is being used effectively as a second striker then why aren't we playing Theo there? Not only is he more of a goal threat than Ramsey but he's massively effective for counter attacks (something we're not executing well enough atm), while being a constant outlet to help us counter a high press. Theo would also compliment Giroud better atm by getting to the by-line and giving him good service.

    It seems that Ramsey most of the time is on the shoulder of the defence, next to Giroud in a front 2. Who's better at this sort of role than Walcott?

    It's baffling.
     
    Gooner Zig likes this.
  2. BobP

    BobP Memri Fan

    Cazorla is a liability through the middle, therefore we play Ramsey on the right, to solidify and provide support. Ramsey and Coquelin together are simply not good enough on the ball.

    There are two solutions to releasing our right wing and unleashing Ox, either Wilshere is partnered with Coquelin. Jack can both burst forward at key moments also has the ability to dictate play.

    Or we can bring in a defensively competent ball player to play alongside Ramsey. Ramsey would be released to do what he does best.

    Or if we want to stress internal solutions, play Wilshere and Ramsey together at the base of midfield, suicidal though.
     
  3. Gooner n Proud

    Gooner n Proud a.k.a. nasri_8 and Voice of Flamini

    Because when you have two wide forwards like Walcott and Sanchez our possession football suffers in the final third as both players do tend to lose the ball.
     
  4. RandyMarsh

    RandyMarsh Established Member

    But our possession football ain't working mate. We have too many players wanting to do the same thing. Walcott is the perfect foil for all these ball-to-feet players we have in our side.

    It's all about balance.
     
  5. Gooner n Proud

    Gooner n Proud a.k.a. nasri_8 and Voice of Flamini

    It's not just about our possession game as a style more of just having the ability to keep the ball when progressing in the final third trying to build an attack, Walcott and Sanchez unfortunately both struggle with this. You talk about balance but in actual fact those two flanking a striker like Giroud would actually imbalance us immensely, its the reason Wenger rarely played Walcott-Giroud- Podolski together 3 years ago.
     
  6. say yes

    say yes To VAR

    One of Cazorla/Coq needs to go.

    We need Ramsey's drive in the middle.
     
    Gooner n Proud and krengon like this.
  7. Rain Dance

    Rain Dance Well-Known Member Trusted

    Don't you love it when people forgot Podolski was replaced with Gervinho and Wenger did try Gervinho Giroud Ramsey and cost us lots of points, just to prove their opinion?
    FOX news would proud about these posts
     
  8. GabeGooner

    GabeGooner Well-Known Member

    This is not the best way to look at things.

    Firstly, we always need Coquelin on the pitch; that's how we recover the ball. Without Coquelin we have a problem – whether we're at 0-0, 2 goals down or 4 goals up. If you lose the ball, you need to get it back; and neither Cazorla or Ramsey are going to do that.

    Secondly, neither player can do it all and we will need to adapt based on opponent. We play Coquelin and Cazorla when we need to control a game. We play Coquelin and Ramsey when we need a dynamic, athletic midfield presence.

    It really is that simple. It won't happen because we don't have a tactical manager who thinks in that way, but that's what we should be doing.
     
  9. Gooner Zig

    Gooner Zig AM's Resident Accountant Trusted

    How often does Cazorla/Coq control the middle? They haven't controlled anything over the past three fixtures and numerous times last season we were overrun in midfield by far inferior teams.

    Cazorla is a luxury IMO and we should have bought a proper CM to phase him out this season.
     
    Gooner n Proud likes this.
  10. Gooner n Proud

    Gooner n Proud a.k.a. nasri_8 and Voice of Flamini

    Give me one game when Ramsey-Giroud-Gervinho were the front 3?

    I think you meant Ramsey-Gervinho-Podolksi whom I actually felt was a decent combination at first with Cazorla as the playmaker and Arteta partnering Diaby in the deeplying midfield positions but overall Gervinhos finishing was just too woeful and we lost Diaby to injury 6 games into the season causing us to tweak the team for months until we found a suitable balance again which wasn't until March 2013 after that defeat at white hart lane which saw us drop Sceszney, Vermalaen and Wilshere for Fabianski, koscielny and Rosicky.
     
    American_Gooner likes this.
  11. Gooner n Proud

    Gooner n Proud a.k.a. nasri_8 and Voice of Flamini

    Don't you think Wilshere can play alongside Coquelin in the middle?
     
  12. Gooner Zig

    Gooner Zig AM's Resident Accountant Trusted

    It could work better than Ramsey/Coq as Jack is a better passer and ball carrier than Ramsey but far less of a goal threat. I don't think Wenger sees Jack as a cM at all though.
     
  13. RandyMarsh

    RandyMarsh Established Member

    I think we'll see Ramsey-Cazorla in central midfield and Wilshere on the wing, when Jack comes back. He'll try and squeeze them all in no doubt.

    No way he plays a team which forces two of Ramsey/Cazorla/Özil/Wilshere onto the bench regularly.
     
  14. Nyctophobia

    Nyctophobia Well-Known Member

    The issue we face with Ramsey is that it seems like his job more than anything is to get goals, if we put Ramsey in the middle he can't be doing those runs and be pushing into the box he'd have to be more reserved, I don't think he wants that kind of role and it doesn't seem like Wenger wants that for him either.

    No matter how I look at it it's Ramsey that doesn't fit in, that doesn't mean it's his fault or that I'm badmouthing him, but he's a rubbish winger let's be honest, he's not much of a dribbler, he can't do much productive on the flank and anyway he prefers to be on the left so he can take off shots comfortably, have we ever tried to play him on the left? Alexis can play on the right after all and Ox and so on, if Ramsey then didn't start drifting over to the right we'd have some sort of width with players spread out, we only make it harder for ourselves playing so tightly doesn't matter if we're potentially good at it, it's stupid to try to do things the hard way.

    I feel that on the pitch Arsenal tries too hard, there's too much effort being put in trying to play ''our way'' and honestly I'm not a fan of it, Wenger has said Ramsey needs to get back to basics, but actually I think Wenger needs to go back to basics as well, regardless of what you think our players or managers are doing right or wrong, we are not a effective team and that's clear to see when we play, we've shown we can be, but we didn't push on from that and that is what's most disappointing to me.
     
    RandyMarsh likes this.
  15. RandyMarsh

    RandyMarsh Established Member

    Theoretically, our team is set up even better to cope with ramsey's forward runs now with Coquelin in there to cover for him as opposed to Arteta. I just think he does it wayyyy too much nowadays, to no avail.

    Agree with the rest of your post though. He's not been used properly and neither is our team in general.
     
  16. Nyctophobia

    Nyctophobia Well-Known Member

    I don't mind Ramsey's runs that much it's more the fact that a lot of the time he's playing we're playing two players in the same position and we're leaving a gaping hole in our formation, Coquelin does cover him much better true, but I stand by that Ramsey playing this way he should be at AMC if anywhere and there's just another problem again.

    Too many cooks in the kitchen.
     
  17. pikey2000

    pikey2000 Well-Known Member

    If we look at last years Chelsea team you saw Matic partnered a lot with Fabregas and it worked, I would say Coquelin partnered with Santi is the closest thing we have to that combination i.e a ball winner with a ball player, muscle with finesse the difference between our side and theirs is not great player VS player for me our failings are tactically, whether that be what Arsène is sending his players out to do OR the players failing to take execute his plans

    Chelsea are a better TEAM, they all know their jobs and exectue 90% of the time.

    The other main difference is that for me their full backs can defend better than ours and do not raid forward as much which makes them a much more difficult unit to break down, add to that the clinical finishes of Costa and you can see why they are always 9 points ahead of us (I don't see the current league standings as relevant)

    Role - Chelsea - Arsenal
    Ball winner - Matic - Coquelin
    Box to Box - Ramires - Ramsey (at least he should be)
    DLP/CM - Fabregas - Santi
    AM - Fabregas/Oscar - Özil
    LW - Hazard - Sanchez
    RW - Pedro - Ox/Theo

    Role for Role we aren't far off them in terms of having the right players and a similar level of quality - it has to be a tactical issue for us
     
  18. SiMamu

    SiMamu Part time Leeds fan

    If we want to move Ramsey back into the middle, I think the ideal partner out of the players currently at the club is Jack Wilshere, once he's fit. I know that Wilshere operating in his England role for Arsenal divides opinion, but I think it's the only way to fit both in without suffering from the 'death by playmakers' with an attacking midfielder out wide rather than the more adept option of Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain.

    Ramsey requires a 'controller' beside him in midfield, as he isn't good enough in possession to perform such a role, whilst such a role would also limit his game. Arteta no longer has the legs, whilst Cazorla is too offensive for the role. The same could be argued for Wilshere, but he has proven himself adept at the base of a midfield for England and during his debut season. For England, he has at least one workhorse next to him. Ramsey can play as a similar workhorse type, but better on the ball, if he is willing to be disciplined. Wilshere essentially played as the deepest midfielder when partnered with Alex Song in 10/11, as Song was going through his Songinho phase (with the Xabi Asongso being his phase for the following season). Ramsey is just as good defensively as Song when he puts his mind to it, whilst being more mobile and slightly weaker (but Ramsey's no weakling). If Wilshere can operate in the role alongside an undisciplined Song, he can do likewise alongside an undisciplined Ramsey.

    For the midfield to truly work, Ramsey would need to be more disciplined than both himself at present and Song in 10/11. He'd probably score more if he didn't start bombing forward the minute we get the ball, so that whilst Koscielny and Mertesacker are knocking it about together, Ramsey's further forward than Giroud. If he was forced to wait until Özil was looking for a final ball to play to make his run, he wouldn't be picked up by a marker by the time the move comes to him, and he also wouldn't leave the midfield liable to a counter. He'd also need to learn that when Wilshere carries it forward and decides to continue his run - like he did for his second goal v Slovakia - then Ramsey cannot be joining the attack, he instead needs to fill in for Wilshere.

    Some may argue that this will lose Wilshere's quality in the final third. What quality? He's a poor finisher (as shown in the 1-2 home loss to Man Utd in 2014) and just gets chopped down after running into the people the closer he gets the goal. He's not a frequent scorer, but he is a scorer of great goals.
     
    Nyctophobia likes this.
  19. Rex Banter

    Rex Banter YNWA Trusted

    I don't get why people want to copy the Chelsea system? Players aren't robots, no two players are exactly alike.

    The system I think would work is a Coq/Ramsey pairing focused on outmuscling the opposition in the middle, getting the ball quickly to Özil who can either spread it quickly to Theo/Ox or Alexis making aggressive runs in behind. Or Özil can use Giroud to hold up the ball, Ramsey could run from deep and break late into the box.

    The annoying thing is it worked so well in 13/14, it was no surprise that once Theo, Ramsey and eventually Özil were seriously injured our title challenge went up in smoke. That team was a mismatch nightmare, and could hurt you in several different ways.
     
  20. pikey2000

    pikey2000 Well-Known Member

    The question on the thread is who needs to be dropped and the answer is none of them, the same type of players work well enough in the Chelsea system which for me implies we aren't getting it right tactically.

    The problem with your suggestion of Coquelin and Ramsey in CM is Ramsey vacates it far too often so it becomes just Coq in CM and we are more open than we need to be. That said its a partnership that hasn't played much and I would be up for seeing more of it before I committed it to the bin like Wenger seems to have :)
     

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