Aaron Ramsey - Stick or Twist?

A year and a half ago, Aaron Ramsey was flying. He was beginning to nail down a starting spot alongside Cesc Fabregas. However we all know the injury that Ramsey suffered at Stoke, which halted his development.

Now, a year and a half later, Ramsey has been back 6 months, and I think that it's fair to say that he's gotten over his injury. He's now the hub of our attacking play, with the departures of Fabregas and Nasri, and also with the injury to Wilshere. However, with Wilshere returning from injury hopefully over the next month, and being linked to a variety of attacking midfielders such as Goetze etc. Do we stick with Ramsey? Or do we twist and put another player in his position?

Personally, I've been very, very underwhelmed with Ramsey. I feel that he is the weak link in our attack. Most of our goals are being created by our wingers. I feel that for a player in his position, Ramsey really does not play many, if any incisive passes in a game. I also feel that Ramsey only begins to look for passing options when he is in possession of the ball, rather than having an idea of what is around him before hand, which slows our play greatly, making him hold onto the ball for way too long, with pressure often making him dribble backwards, and pass back to the defence. I feel that improving this position would really take our game up to the next level. It will give us much more variation in our play, rather than relying on Walcott and Gervinho on our wings all the time. We saw today, that when Gervinho and Walcott weren't having the best of games, we lost ideas, and it took a stunning pass from Song to get Van Persie his chance. If we have a good quality, creative midfielder in the centre of the pitch, who has the ability to unlock a tight defense, it will take our attack to a new level.

On the other hand, Ramsey is part of the midfield which has been in great form since our dire start to the season, pulling us out of the depths of near relegation zone, and putting us back into the top 4. He has a great engine, and has aiding our pressing game, which in turn has improved our defensive capabilities (along with Arteta). We must also remember that there were questions over how ready Wilshere was at the start of last season, and it was particularly in the second half of the season that Wilshere really pushed on. Ramsey is not as good as Cesc Fabregas was at the same age, however it is fair to say that Ramsey lost a year of his development.

In my opinion, Ramsey will never be world class, and performs best in a more "supportive" role, rather than being the hub of creativity. He flourished when supporting Fabregas, as the legs of our midfield, breaking up play and making the odd good run. I feel that he would be best playing in a deeper position and rotating with Arteta.

For me, I would twist. Ramsey frustrates me way too much, by slowing our play with his lack of awareness before receiving the ball. His engine and pressing ability is a great attribute, and we must find a creative player who also has the ability to work hard and win the ball. Wilshere is an interesting prospect, who looked good in a more advanced position in preseason, and also has a good defensive game now after playing deeper last season. I don't want this to turn into a wishlist thread, so I won't discuss players to potentially come into that position that are better than Ramsey.

So guys, how do you rate Ramsey's development since the start of the season, and where do you see him improving to? Should we stick with him, or twist with the January transfer window and Wilshere's return fast approaching.

- TO CLARIFY, THE QUESTION IS "SHOULD RAMSEY REMAIN OUR FIRST CHOICE AM, OR SHOULD WE BE LOOKING AT OTHER OPTIONS?"

I think with Wilshere, Ramsey and Rosicky our CAM position is in good shape. However, since Wilshere is still injured and Rosicky is not young anymore, I wouldn't mind a winger who can play through the center if needed. Our depth on the wings is frighteningly low.

I have to disagree partly.

I think his ability to create chances is underrated, not to speak about his ability to get into goal scoring positions.
Ramsey has so far played many great defence-splitting balls, to each player of our attack at least once this season, so saying he has not big an influence on our attacking play considering his position isn't fair. Then, there's his tremendous ability to get into good goal scoring positions (of which his teammates still aren't aware as often as they should), but he still lacks that bit of composure in front of goal (as do many in our team) to finish his chances, but that'll come with time.

It's also too early to claim he's completely gotten over his injury. An injury, as a horrific one as he suffered, isn't something you shake off within half a year. He's still lacking that drive and last bit of decisiveness he's had prior to that injury. Whether that'll return, I don't know. Regardless of that, I'm willing to give him more time on that front, a full season at least.

I think many people should adapt their expectations to what we've got at the moment, rather than what we've had (hinting at the immense quality of Fabregas). Ramsey is a player who's still developing, a player who's given the starting spot in a team that got ripped his heart out this summer and struggled massively to get going for large parts of the first two months. It was a team effort to get us out of that slump, and a recognisable part of that is down to Ramsey as well (I just point to his performance at Stamford Bridge), just compare his recent performances to the ones at the start of the season, where the criticism he got was justified, to an extent.
For me, ever since his poor game against Spurs, he has improved and kept doing so. He got better on the ball, his passing became sharper and his work rate above everything, improved massively.

The only question for me is, whether the role he currently plays does suit him 100%. To an extent, he has done well there but there're still some faults in his game, something I'm not sure he'd ever fix (taking too long to release the ball, tendency of slowing down our game), so I partly agree with the OP in that regard. Maybe his best performances do lie in a role similar to Arteta's, where he can pick the ball up deep and carry it a bit up field before passing to the playmaker.

Conclusion for me is to wait and see how well he does over the next couple of weeks until Jack gets back. Then the whole situation needs to be reassessed, from my point of view.
So....stick.

And GOONER1991, I think you've got the powers to add a poll.

And GOONER1991, I think you've got the powers to add a poll.

Good idea, I forgot I can do that now

I'd definitely give 1 of Rosicky or Benny a turn, after all we're playing a system with a CAM and they and Arshavin are the only 2 real AM's in the team, the reason I didn't include Arshavin as an option is because there is still a quite a bit of defensive work required in the role and he's not up to it.

We've been spoiled over the years with Fabregas' exquisite passing range. Today there were two opportunities whereby Ramsey had the chance of putting our attackers through on goal, yet he failed to execute the pass. Both times I said to myself that Cesc would've pulled that off with a blindfold on. He's unlucky in that he's coming through right after the departure of Cesc and so he'll be compared to him.

He's made some very encouraging progress over the past month or two. Remember that game against Spurs at WHL? now that was a dreadful performance, and I feared for the worst. I'm confident he'll develop into a superb midfielder and form a formidable trio with Wilshere and Song.

With regards to the poll, I don't know which one is the good one so I can't vote. Stick and Twist both sound negative.

Ramsey is my favorite player on the team to be honest, but you've gotta try and be as objective as possible in these kinds of situations. With a healthy Jack and a possible midfield addition of quality, I think you'd have no choice but to relegate Ramsey to the bench for now and hope it doesn't affect his confidence in too detrimental of a way.

Now, a year and a half later, Ramsey has been back 6 months, and I think that it's fair to say that he's gotten over his injury.

I really don't think it is. We've seen time and time again/should recall how long these things can take (if they take at all) and that's it's not only the time out and the recovery but the actual time missed (especially for a young player). As a rough guess it'd be the start of next season when it should be behind him and his development should catch back up.

As for whether he needs rotation ('twist', I guess), that's fine if someone offers more or is playing better. For a start, when Jack's back there will be more options. As for now I think he's been playing pretty well and I do think he'll be the dreaded 'world class' when all's said and done - he can pass, tackle, shoot, and run. I can see him and Jack playing together for a long time.

Well i'd keep the same team for the City game so no immediate changes. Maybe take him out v Villa which is 3 days later. Overall he's doing well and he he has delivered some great through balls in recent games. We could do with subbing him quicker when he's underperforming especially if Rosicky is an option.

It wouldn't hurt to give him a mini-break...let him recharge the batteries and come back hungry to nail down a first team spot. When Jack is back, he's probably not going to play every game anyway.

Ramsey is still not back to his best yet we all know that. He's got lot's of potential and very talented. I would keep him in the side for the Man City game. But I wouldn't mind Rosicky or Yossi starting in that CAM role.

Ramsey has had to come in and replace Cesc Fabregas, one of the best players in the world, a real superstar. I think this thread is similar to what people would've written about Pires when he replaced Overmars, or Henry replacing Anelka. It's hard not to feel underwhelmed when you've lost such quality.

And because that Cesc role is such a crucial one, it is nigh on impossible to seperate Ramsey's own performances and that of the team. Personally I'm a very big fan. His pressing game is fantastic, he covers a lot of ground and most importantly of all - he always looks to get on the ball and make things happen. His passing can seem a little off at times but he's also been responsible for some absolute gems this season. Ones against Stoke and Chelsea come to mind.

The only criticism I would have of Ramsey right now is that he isn't hitting the back of the net enough. It's his job to help to take the goalscoring burden of Robin's shoulders, and he isn't doing that. However, I like the way he's playing and I firmly believe that he's a proper Arsenal legend in the making.

He wont be first choice once Wilshere is back, but I think some of you are being too harsh on him, he really hasn't been as bad as people are making out. Of course, he's not creating chance after chance like Fabregas used to, but there's no player we could get that would be able to do that anyway.

Like mo50 said, we've all gotten used to having Cesc playing in this position and now that he's not here anymore, we're noticing the difference and it's making it look as though Aaron is playing worse than he actually is.

We also have to remember that he's still very young, he's got 10+ years ahead of him and he'll only improve, and I'm very excited about him, I think he'll become a top top player in the next few years.

He messes up several attacks by taking an extra touch,playing the wrong pass etc,etc. He's not an awful player imo but he needs to improve considerably, for the position he is playing in, he isn't performing to the level I want to see, due to this reason I want to see an attacking mid during Jan.

I wouldn't have either Benayoun or Rosicky as a consistent regular starter ahead of him.
So that's a stick then.
He's got an eye for a killer pass, he works his socks off and he can be a goal threat.
He possibly plays a few too many hopeful long balls these days and can get caught in possession, but not to the extent that he's negatively affecting our overall performance.

Possibly wise to rotate him with Benayoun over the Christmas period, he's played in nearly all of our PL games this season so we need to watch that he doesn't get worn out.

A funny thing with the Ramsey drama is the safety net effect (or reversed, somehow): people think of when Ramsey will be (or is) entirely over the injury (all aspects, let's say), but then they assume we can "run the quality test": he's good or bad?

But that's ridiculous considering his age: no other player (not even the super players) are considered anything near their final level at this age. Now add (or - deduct) the missing year of experience, and you have the equivalent of a 19 years old player.

So even assuming all effects of the injury are over - what about some sane player assessment? haven't seen much of those. I'm a bit tired of defending him, but I stick by my early stance (which I've stated for a long time now): he'll come good. He'll be more than good, IMO.

I'm not sure where it was (I'm a bit older than he, so memory, etc.,) I suggested we look at the boy around february-March. Think there will be less questions then (but on the other hand, if he stagnates, I'll concede I was wrong about him).

I thought it was very harsh on him from people today (not the thread) - he did fade in the second half, but I thought he was one of our better players in the first. Still, people in general see him as one of our problems. Dunno.

One thing I think can help him (this may sound strange) is if in fact he runs a bit less, and maybe doesn't try so hard. I know it would seem this is one of his strengths, but he's gonna be all over the pitch even if he only runs 10+ km a game rather than 12 or more, and we have more chance of seeing his great passes, and perhaps less of the lapses within games. I think with experience he'll learn to distribute his efforts to better effect.

FFS mate-the dude has just returned from a career threatening injury-it may take him a whole season to get back to where he was. I don't think Arsène ever thought that he would be starting every game for us this season-he's only 20 going on 21 years old! He can only get better IMO. How many people were underwhelmed with Theo, how many people were underwhelmed with Alex Song. Ramsey is not world class right now but to play at Arsenal and be a nailed on starter at 20 then I would suggest that he might just have what it takes to become world class material

Amazing potential but shouldn't be an automatic starter. I'm sure Jack will come in to his role and Ramsey will rotate among all midfield positions.

I think he droped a lot physically after the injury. He can run all day, that is true, but he was much faster before injury. I went to youtube to watch some older videos of him, and wathcing his foot work today and before is like watching two diferent players. Same problem happened to Rosicky few years ago but Ramsey is younger so there is still hope for him.
IF he can get that pace back he could be a great midfielder, but until then, Jack would be my first choice.Someday maybe they will be something like xavi and iniesta, talent is definitley there

Still young and developing , a lot of his issues are to do with physical sharpness and a lack of sophistication in his midfield play . All issues with a developing player and one that has had his career sorely interrupted .

With the exception of Arteta all our midfield are guilty of giving away posession inexplicably .

Would like him rotated with Rosicky , who I believe has the guile in the attacking third we miss .

I don't think he'll be a starter when Wilshere gets back to full fitness so I guess that's twist, but I'm not sure if you meant the question that way or a more immediate meaning in which case stick. So I didn't vote...

I disagree with the notion that he'd play better in Arteta's position, his passing is far too inconsistent for that in my opinion and he has a tendency to get caught in possession when he's deeper due to a lack of concentration. I agree that he hasn't fully recovered from his injury yet and he looks to me like he's on the brink of becoming an exceptional player though it may take a while for him to iron out the flaws stopping him being that player right now. He has a knack for spotting passes you can't even see coming on the t.v and that's special for me, it's his execution (often over-weights the through-balls) that's lacking at the moment.

I think we'll see Jack play Aaron's current role when he returns but with time for both to develop their game we'll see both of their contributions are too much to leave out and Jack will drop deeper into Arteta's role.

Something I saw today that I guess you could call improvement is that he made quick forward 'through-ball' type passes during swift moves. Sure he over-hit the ball but in previous games he wouldn't go for those and instead would slow down, twirl and pass back or across. You could also see he has the vision to make a Cesc-type pass so now he just needs to learn to execute.

I think he's over the injury, just not in fantastic form.

His passing CAN be phenomenal. (Anyone remember the Olympiakos game a couple of years ago?) He bossed that midfield and made some amazing passes. An outside-of-the-boot, 40 yard pass to put Walcott through springs to mind.

He HAS that ability, I just don't think he's in a run, or perhaps position where he can do that.

He gets forward a lot more than Arteta, but I feel like we're playing a 4-3-3 at the moment rather than the 4-2-3-1, so him and Arteta are doing similar jobs, sort of like what Denilson was supposed to be.

Denilson never used to play defence-splitting passes, but he could keep play ticking over, keep possession, and play to a man in space. His passing stats were always his greatest defence on this forum, because that's what he used to do. Make the short, safe pass, and largely keep possesion.

Ramsey's doing that, only he has got the ability to make the great pass and gets forward 10,000 times better. The Marseille (Away) goal for example.

Arteta's not young. He's going to eventually phased out by Ramsey and Wilshere will be in the hole, behind the striker. Wilshere will be playing in the 2010-2011 Fabregas position and Song and Ramsey support and we'll go back to the 4-2-3-1.

He has the potential, and he's not exactly of the age/return time from injury where we should start to question if he has a future here. When Wilshere comes back, he'll drop to the bench, but by Christmas next season, it'll be a case of whether Arteta can keep his place.
I hope.

One thing I think can help him (this may sound strange) is if in fact he runs a bit less, and maybe doesn't try so hard. I know it would seem this is one of his strengths, but he's gonna be all over the pitch even if he only runs 10+ km a game rather than 12 or more, and we have more chance of seeing his great passes, and perhaps less of the lapses within games. I think with experience he'll learn to distribute his efforts to better effect.

Relaxed concentration. I like it.

voted stick but now realised I'm not sure how you mean it...are you suggesting we should sell him? hope not...

he was bit underwhelming at the start of the season but picked up his form a bit in recent games (wasn't that good yesterday again)

we have no idea in what shape will Jack come back...Aaron may be starter even after he comes back..if not he will still get plenty of playing time anyway

he is already pretty good, very young and talented...great player to have

He's been very average since returning tbh, but it's hard not to like the lad considering the shift he puts in and potential he has in front of goal(missing chances now but he's a consistent 10+ goal midfielder in time).

We just have to accept that he's young and has flaws in his game, is inconsistent. He had an upturn in form 5 or 6 weeks ago, but he's back to playing at an average level in recent weeks.

FWIW, I think:
1) People are exaggerating his level pre-injury vs current form
2) His current position suits him best imo, rather than a deeper one dictating play. He's just not quite ready to be the player we all want him to be, he'll grow in the role in time.

I think the best option would be to buy a relatively cheap 5-10m player who can compete with Ramsey in that role while not confining him to the bench, because let's be honest, Wenger is persevering with him and will not buy a top player to put in front of him. Someone like Granero who can also play in CM/AM might be an option. We have Diaby on our books but he's **** and slow/dumb, will never be good enough for AFC.

He'll be a very good player for us in time, thankfully we have Arteta in that midfield to keep it ticking, and Song has proven useful this season. Plus Jack to return.

I personally am really happy with Ramsey. Granted, he still has his flaws and he might be be a bit inconsistent but I don't believe we are in a position to judge Ramsey just yet.

He has been thrown into a team that recently (at that time) lost arguably the two most important midfielders for this club. What ever the reasons were, it is a huge ask for Ramsey and co. As predicted we would struggle at the beginning of the season, and even though we predicted a loss against United, none of us expected that thrashing. That match unfortunately, put a permanent stamp on a couple of players and I can't help but feel that Ramsey was a victim as well.

That's also not mentioning that he had to learn how to play in a new role, the whole team basically shifted tactically. We used to rely heavily on Cesc in the past but the way I see it now, it is a little bit balanced. Wingers and midfielders do their part and even our bloody full-backs who can't cross for the life of them.

Now look at our midfield, Rasmey has the creative freedom in midfield thanks to the tempo and experience from Arteta. Ramsey has played 19 games overall now out of a possible 26 (23 if you take out CC & Olympiakos away). I can remember seeing him run and run until the final whistle but now struggles to compete for 90 minutes. He looks a bit jaded to me and on top of that there is an enormous amount of pressure at the club let alone the player. He knows he has to deliver and the only thing we can do is be patient and offer him the time he needs.

IMO it will primarily come down to where AW wants the playmaker to play = deeper (as withh Arteta currently), or behind the striker (as with Cesc). Secondly it will come down to whom he see in that role as BOTH Jack & Rambo could play in either position although not the same roles in those positions.

Bottom line = in 2 seasons (before AW's contract expires) the Jack-Rambo pairing will be our starting midfield combo of offensive players, and I expect to see plenty of interchange between the two during a match.

Anyone else think we're a bit "spoilt"? Yeah, Jack is a better prospect than Ramsey and Cesc was better than Ramsey at that age as well. But Jack and Cesc are the exceptions to the rule. Players shouldn't be that good at that age. Ramsey is still an elite talent, in my opinion anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, Jack walks straight back into the starting XI when he's fully fit, and Ramsey and Arteta battle it out for the third midfield spot. With Arteta approaching 30, it looks a perfect situation to gradually ease Arteta out and Ramsey in. Song, Wilshere, Ramsey has to be the long term plan, surely.

I don't think that we're spoiled, Ron - I think we want to have a strong midfield, and we can really see what's holding us back. The real question concerning Aaron here is - is he close to fulfilling that promise, being good enough without a question (a-la Jack), or not; and provided the answer to the first question is "yes" - is it too far for us to settle with him ATM?

I think it's a definite "yes", and that he's not that far. Sure, if we were offered some 26 year old sublime CM that does the same job I'd take him - but that is true regardless of all the relevant questions here.

Fabo - though I'm more positive about Ramsey, I like your post, and agree with your points and criteria (just not so much with the "buy someone" thing: Jack coming back, Rosicky still around? so if it's not the "sublime" case above, in which case he just goes - whatever for?) the point about a mid scoring in future particularly: I haven't seen anyone comment on his move yesterday: yes, he missed; but by inches. And if that ball went in, it would be a top VP move - we'd be screaming even if the man himself did it.

Jack is one we expect will be doing it, but despite his god like status, he's only done it once or twice (and not more than Aaron himself). We haven't had this kind of contribution and moves since Bobby & Ljungberg. And if Fabo's right it's a matter of experience before we see it (and all I've been saying thus far equals just that), then I think we'd be fools to not realize this is worth the (not so long) wait. Back to Ron - if that is what you mean by spoiled - then sure, I agree. As Anzac says:

Bottom line = in 2 seasons ... the Jack-Rambo pairing will be our starting midfield combo of offensive players, and I expect to see plenty of interchange between the two during a match.

I agree with all but the = thing .