Bundesliga 2012/2013

German champions Borussia Dortmund kick off the new season with a home game against Werder Bremen.

No Kagawa anymore but big summer signing Marco Reus makes his debut, nearly 10 minutes gone and no goals. Game is on ESPN.

BANG 1-0

Marco Reus scores on his debut to give Dortmund the lead, nice finish.

Blaszczykowski has started quite well, looking very lively.

Chelsea loanee, De Bruyne playing for Bremen, as our new boys Elia and Czech international full back Selassie.

Elia misses a 1 on 1 after being put through, should be scoring.

Wow... Absolutely diabolical finish by Elia...

Enjoyable first half, open game, bremen look like they have a goal in them.

I'm switching over to Bolton/Forest - shaping up to be a cracking second half and Benik Afobe could potentially feature.

Deserved equaliser for Bremen. Another great Arnautovic cross headed in by Selassie.

2-1 by Goetze, who's only 2 mins on the pitch. Clinical finish.

what you notice about Bundesliga games is how much better the crowds are than over here. Reuss is genuine quality. Would have him over Goetze given the choice.

Reus is the best player in Germany right now, by far.

Regarding the atmosphere, it depends on the stadium you are in, some have great crowds (Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Dortmund) while others suck ass (Bayern, Wolfsburg and the likes). Funny that you mention it though, people over here think English crowds are the world's best, most folks who are somewhat (remotely) interested in football will blab about Anfield having the most passionate crowd of the world.

The top five leagues of the world can't compare to some of the crowds in Greece, Poland or the ex-Yugoslavian nations though, the atmosphere in the stadiums of the likes of Hajduk Split, PAOK and so on is on a completely different level

It's a different kind of atmosphere in those countries you mention. More aggressive. It may be passionate, but a wrong kind of passion in some cases.

Schalke have quite a good crowd too, don't they? I know a few people from Holland who go there quite regularly, mostly because of the passionate but friendly atmosphere. (fans of opposite teams in the same pubs etc.)

I'd like to visit a Dortmund or Schalke game myself someday, since it's not that far away, and I believe it's relatively easy to get tickets.

Regardless of possible aggression in the stadiums (which I of course do not condone), the fans there are clearly more passionate about their clubs. You don't see English or German fans spending their last money on a season ticket (well, it could well be your last money if we're talking about the Grove ), because it is more of a hobby around our parts.

I've personally met some PAOK fans, and I can tell that a lot of those guys are clinically insane. Of course rivalries play a very big part, but even if it weren't for rival clubs, those guys' lives would still revolve only about their clubs.

I have a few friends who are season ticket holders of Eintracht Frankfurt (my hometown club), used to be one myself, and I can completely understand their disgust of hardcore fans always being associated with hooliganism/violence, those are the supporters that in the hundreds travel hundreds of kilometers to watch their club play in some shitty rainy suburb against some Sunday league team in the DFB-Pokal (German FA Cup) because they actually care about their club, just to come home and read some sensationalist bullshit about them being a plight on society.

Oh, and **** Schalke. Scum club with scum supporters, they are basically Chelsea in that nobody in Germany likes them, with a bit more passionate supporters (who are still Chavs though).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhKftfXFU8I" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of the greatest days in football history.

Seriously? I always thought that Bayern Munchen was by far the most despised club in Germany. Schalke seems a likeable club from what I have seen on Sportschau and the occasional 90 minutes. Funny how different the image people have about certain clubs can be across borders.

Reus is the best player in Germany right now, by far.

Regarding the atmosphere, it depends on the stadium you are in, some have great crowds (Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Dortmund) while others suck ass (Bayern, Wolfsburg and the likes). Funny that you mention it though, people over here think English crowds are the world's best, most folks who are somewhat (remotely) interested in football will blab about Anfield having the most passionate crowd of the world.

The top five leagues of the world can't compare to some of the crowds in Greece, Poland or the ex-Yugoslavian nations though, the atmosphere in the stadiums of the likes of Hajduk Split, PAOK and so on is on a completely different level

I think the myth of good atmosphere at English matches,especially Anfield, comes from the 60s,70s and 80s. It doesn't make it true of course

Agree about Greece,Turkey,Croatia etc. Problem there, apart from the aggression, is the fact a majority of matches only draw small crowds. Egypt and Argentina are also capable of generating amazing atmospheres.

I love the Southern European and South American madness. Still I rate the Bundesliga highest when it comes to good atmospheres. Nearly all big stadiums are filled with real football fans who come to support their teams very vocally.

Seriously? I always thought that Bayern Munchen was by far the most despised club in Germany. Schalke seems a likeable club from what I have seen on Sportschau and the occasional 90 minutes. Funny how different the image people have about certain clubs can be across borders.

Public perception and reality are not always the same thing.

Schalke have the image of working class club from an economically downtrodden area supported by loyal, passionate fans.

Bayern have the image of arrogant, rich title buyers who destroy it for everyone else.

Here is a bit of football history to counter that. In the early 1900s Bayern were already a cosmopolitan club. They were one of the first German clubs to import playing and management talent from abroad. Like many other middle class clubs they had a significant Jewish membership and a Jewish chairman Kurt Landauer.

In 1932 Bayern won their first German title. Then the Nazis came. That was it for Bayern. Landauer had to leave the country and the club was persecuted for the next 12 years. Clubs like Schalke or Bayern's local rivals 1860 were favoured by the Nazi regime. Schalke dominated football during the Nazi era.

After the war Landauer returned to Bayern, and the club was slowly rebuilt into what it is now.

Yep, Bayern weren't called "FC Hollywood" in Germany during the 90s for nothing.

With players like Klinsmann, Matthäus, Kahn, or later Effenberg, and Managers like Beckenbauer or Trapattoni, you've always had a guarantee for a media-****-up.

Bayern players are struggling against the newly promoted side.

Still 0-0 right after the 30th minute.

2-0 now, Mandzukic. They like a big centre forward. Gomez, and now Mandzukic as well. Perhaps we can interest them in Chamakh

3-0...Robben.

Seriously? I always thought that Bayern Munchen was by far the most despised club in Germany. Schalke seems a likeable club from what I have seen on Sportschau and the occasional 90 minutes. Funny how different the image people have about certain clubs can be across borders.

Public perception and reality are not always the same thing.

Schalke have the image of working class club from an economically downtrodden area supported by loyal, passionate fans.

Bayern have the image of arrogant, rich title buyers who destroy it for everyone else.

Here is a bit of football history to counter that. In the early 1900s Bayern were already a cosmopolitan club. They were one of the first German clubs to import playing and management talent from abroad. Like many other middle class clubs they had a significant Jewish membership and a Jewish chairman Kurt Landauer.

In 1932 Bayern won their first German title. Then the Nazis came. That was it for Bayern. Landauer had to leave the country and the club was persecuted for the next 12 years. Clubs like Schalke or Bayern's local rivals 1860 were favoured by the Nazi regime. Schalke dominated football during the Nazi era.

After the war Landauer returned to Bayern, and the club was slowly rebuilt into what it is now.

Your image of Schalke is a bit off Schalke are close 2nd in terms of most hated club in Germany, after Bayern obviously. The standard Schalke fan is unemployed, an alcoholic, sports the same jump suit every day and usually has a dense stench of a mix of cheap beer and vomit following him.
In other words, something like this:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... halker.jpg

They have loyal fans though, while Bayern's fans are as plastic as it gets, most of their following is from Berlin (more than 500 miles away) or some other cities, glory hunters in the truest sense of the word.

Also, Bayern's success is more down to Hoeness' work since the early 80s, who started as director back then and helped the club financially by implementing some American merchandise strategies. Since then, they started systematically crippling the league by buying every half-decent player the domestic competition produces. It helped them in becoming the domestic record champion, but immensely weakened the position of the Bundesliga, who, having the largest FA of the world and having a financially solid foundation, should definitely be in a better position than battling Italy for third place in the UEFA five year ranking.

Seriously? I always thought that Bayern Munchen was by far the most despised club in Germany. Schalke seems a likeable club from what I have seen on Sportschau and the occasional 90 minutes. Funny how different the image people have about certain clubs can be across borders.

Public perception and reality are not always the same thing.

Schalke have the image of working class club from an economically downtrodden area supported by loyal, passionate fans.

Bayern have the image of arrogant, rich title buyers who destroy it for everyone else.

Here is a bit of football history to counter that. In the early 1900s Bayern were already a cosmopolitan club. They were one of the first German clubs to import playing and management talent from abroad. Like many other middle class clubs they had a significant Jewish membership and a Jewish chairman Kurt Landauer.

In 1932 Bayern won their first German title. Then the Nazis came. That was it for Bayern. Landauer had to leave the country and the club was persecuted for the next 12 years. Clubs like Schalke or Bayern's local rivals 1860 were favoured by the Nazi regime. Schalke dominated football during the Nazi era.

After the war Landauer returned to Bayern, and the club was slowly rebuilt into what it is now.

Your image of Schalke is a bit off Schalke are close 2nd in terms of most hated club in Germany, after Bayern obviously. The standard Schalke fan is unemployed, an alcoholic, sports the same jump suit every day and usually has a dense stench of a mix of cheap beer and vomit following him.
In other words, something like this:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... halker.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They have loyal fans though, while Bayern's fans are as plastic as it gets, most of their following is from Berlin (more than 500 miles away) or some other cities, glory hunters in the truest sense of the word.

Also, Bayern's success is more down to Hoeness' work since the early 80s, who started as director back then and helped the club financially by implementing some American merchandise strategies. Since then, they started systematically crippling the league by buying every half-decent player the domestic competition produces. It helped them in becoming the domestic record champion, but immensely weakened the position of the Bundesliga, who, having the largest FA of the world and having a financially solid foundation, should definitely be in a better position than battling Italy for third place in the UEFA five year ranking.

I think the plastic aspect of their support is overstated. Its like United or Real. Yes, the majority come from elsewhere, but the suggestion these clubs are not popular in their home cities is a myth propagated by their local rivals. Spurs claim to be the best supported club in North London.

Yes, obviously their success is linked to their economic power, but it was all built the right way.

You are also ignoring the fact they put German football on the map in the 60s and 70s with their golden teams. Those were largely based on youth products.

Of the European superclubs they are probably the most honourable. Must be hard for you to acknowledge, but its hard to argue with.

Your stereotypical Schalke fan probably isn't that different from the stereotypical Newcastle or Liverpool. Football folklore dictates that people like that are better fans than middle class Arsenal fans. Its working class snobbery.

I think the plastic aspect of their support is overstated. Its like United or Real. Yes, the majority come from elsewhere, but the suggestion these clubs are not popular in their home cities is a myth propagated by their local rivals. Spurs claim to be the best supported club in North London.

Not saying they aren't supported in their home cities, obviously Bayern have some fans in Munich and Manure in Manchester/Trafford, else they couldn't fill their 70k stadiums. My point was another, as I already stated their fans consist largely of glory hunting fans from elsewhere, who are fans only as long as it is convenient to them.

Yes, obviously their success is linked to their economic power, but it was all built the right way.

Agreed.

You are also ignoring the fact they put German football on the map in the 60s and 70s with their golden teams. Those were largely based on youth products.

Not ignoring it, it simply wasn't the point of the discussion. We were talking about the here and now, and how they got to the position they are in. Until this day they still produce more and better youth players than most other teams, I won't let the fact that they are a despicable bunch blur my vision.

Of the European superclubs they are probably the most honourable. Must be hard for you to acknowledge, but its hard to argue with.

Never. I'll just say that you think that way because you're not exposed to all the **** they stir everyday in the media, no matter whether it's about the club bosses (Hoeness, Rummenigge, Nerlinger resp. Sammer), their on pitch behaviour, the way they conduct their transfers or their ridiculous unwarranted self-imporatnce - they are absolutely the worst, can't even hate Spurs or Manure as much as I hate them. Even if I did not have to hear about their **** every day, e.g. I didn't live in Germany I'd still hate their guts.

Your stereotypical Schalke fan probably isn't that different from the stereotypical Newcastle or Liverpool. Football folklore dictates that people like that are better fans than middle class Arsenal fans. Its working class snobbery.

I don't care about folklore or whatever, and I'm what you'd call working class myself probably. I'm just giving my opinion of the Bundesliga as a German citizen and fan that regularly is in the stadium for Bundesliga matches.

@ jones, I would have thought that the most hated clubs are the artificial ones like Wolfsburg,Leverkusen and Hoffenheim? No tradition, no sex appeal, no fans etc. They are certainly the ones that do least for me.

Those three clubs you mentioned are well hated too, especially VW and Hoffenheim, the world's first club with the stadium atmosphere coming from the stadium speakers.

There is obviously no official ranking of which club is hated most, though I feel those three are, while despicable, not relevant enough across Germany.

For the UK crowd who don't have ESPN - ITV 4 showing Bundesliga highlights.

Cheers, recording it, might watch it later on.

Javi Martinez got his debut today as a late sub for Schweinsteiger. 6 - 1 Bayern with Mandzukic looking unplayable. Similar player to Giroud, proving that strikers of that type do have a place in good teams.

Unplayable is a bit much maybe, that's just your average Stuttgart performance when in Munich. Don't know why it is, been the case for years that they get mullered when away to Bayern.

Unplayable is a bit much maybe, that's just your average Stuttgart performance when in Munich. Don't know why it is, been the case for years that they get mullered when away to Bayern.

meh, point is Mandzukic looked good for the type of lanky striker we have written off during most of the Wenger era. He looked dangerous for Croatia in the Euros as well. IIRC he was the only player who genuinely seemed to stress the Spanish.

My main reason for highlighting his performance is the fact a lot of people seem to already have given up on Giroud after three matches. Very similar players as far as I can see.