A very poor Premier League.

The Man Utd result today and our Champions League form had me thinking that the English Premier League is no where near being the best in the world. It may be in terms of excitement, but in terms of the standard of player and level of tactics it is far from being the best.

Look at the team the Champions of England put out today - Djemba-Djemba, Forlan, Fortune, Butt. They are utter utter crap and would not get near Madrid, Juve, Milan etc. And then they have the Neville sisters...say no more.

Likewise Arsenal. Edu is an atrocious player. Wiltord and Gilberto are distinctly ordinary and my Gran has more technical ability than Parlour. And these are the teams that have dominated in England for seven years.

Teams like Liverpool and Newcastle, supposed title challengers are just a joke.

Compare this to the squads that the top teams in Spain and Italy possess. Players on their bench would walk into our team at present. Look at the lessons Madrid taught Utd last year and Inter taught us this, they are far more advanced both technically and tactically.

The fact is that the standard of the English Premier League is very very poor compared to that throughout Europe.

what do you want us to do about it? breakdown and start crying?! The priemership might not be up to the standard of the spanish league, but everyone will agree that it is easily the second most entertaining league in europe. Italy comes nowhere near it in terms of entertainment. As an arsenal fan, i am surprised you have brought this argument up considering this is the main argument used by the press to justify arsenal's poor performance in europe. Basically what they are saying, and what you are confirming, is that arsenal are not a great side. we are an average team that can only dominate the mediocre priemership but fall short in europe. This is something i totally disagree with. I think fulham's victory today over man utd, who have won the european cup, should re-instate some faith in the competitiveness of the priemership.

the prem is only the third best league in europe, behind spain and italy. we believe we are an elite team because we can beat the likes of southampton and boro. wowee. as soon as we come up against teams with tactical nous, like inter and pretty much everyone else in the CL, we look like a school team. it is becoming really, really embarrassing to watch us get outthought in the CL every other week. we are not a "great" side, and neither are we a mediocre one. We are just not good enough for the CL.

what do you want us to do about it? breakdown and start crying?! The priemership might not be up to the standard of the spanish league, but everyone will agree that it is easily the second most entertaining league in europe. Italy comes nowhere near it in terms of entertainment. As an arsenal fan, i am surprised you have brought this argument up considering this is the main argument used by the press to justify arsenal's poor performance in europe. Basically what they are saying, and what you are confirming, is that arsenal are not a great side. we are an average team that can only dominate the mediocre priemership but fall short in europe. This is something i totally disagree with. I think fulham's victory today over man utd, who have won the european cup, should re-instate some faith in the competitiveness of the priemership.

I said, if you read my post, that the premier league in terms of entertainment IS the best, but in terms of quality it is far from being the best.
It is far more entertaining that Italian football only if you watch football goals, but if you appreciate the technical side of football then there is no better than Serie A. Compared to the standard of this league, the Premier league is a joke.

Not every team has quality all the way through. I've seen R.madrids bench and its nothing to be proud of.

Our top 3 are quality, as we go lower our league is very crap.

European teams are VERY over-rated. Watch their league and you will see why. The problem with the english is they hate changing their system of play, this is why they fail over and over.......

jazz - very, very true about real madrid. why does no one ever mention how weak their bench is? they have the best first eleven in europe but, beyond that, their squad consists of very ordinary players on big contracts or unproven youngsters.

european teams are indeed slightly overrated but the reason for their success is that they take tactics seriously. they recognise that quality is not enough - you have to approach tough games with a gameplan and stick to it. The Wenger approach to managaement in totally non-tactical. it is based on the theory that, as long as you have technically skillful players, the manager's job is simply to get them in the right mental and physical condition - no instructions about tactics, no restrictions on their freedom, etc. this works brilliantly against 75% of teams but, against tacticallly sussed european sides (even weaker ones like kiev), it fails.

sol i think you are a bit harsh on edu and parlour and wiltord. amn utd's midfield was **** today and they paid the price. This league is not the best but i think definitely the most entertaining.

Likewise Arsenal. Edu is an atrocious player. Wiltord and Gilberto are distinctly ordinary and my Gran has more technical ability than Parlour.

Is he really? In all honesty, that bad? Ok he's been known to have the odd dodgy pass and he can only score from a rebound etc etc, but he aint that bad. Cut him some slack, he's hardly a 1st team regular is he, i think he needs a bit more time cause he's not eaxctly featured in the team regularly for the past couple of years. He'll come out of this seasona better player, altho i personally think he's great.

Wiltord, i think has perhaps come to end of the line but i am not going to slag him off, he created one of the best moments in my life, ever so I'll keep schtum.

And as for your gran? Tht the new signing to keep Henry company up front

Sol, I do not agree with you.
Spanish football is good.
Have not watched any Italian football.
I think PL is very good, I love it.
I think our PL is the best

parlour is the romford pele. sol!

sol, according to you, its pretty pointless trying to win the priemership. so if we do win the league, no point celebrating because sol wishes arsenal had won the primera liga instead!

sol didn't say that, he just said that the prem is not as good as spain or italy. acknowledging that truth doesn't mean you don't want arsenal to win the prem. it is bizarre that you could draw that inference.

I will maintain that winning the Premiership is the most testing of the lot. Yes there are fewer teams dominating and of quality - but the competition and pressure is that much higher. Coupled with the pace of the game, and the passion - there is really, in my eyes, only one championship worth getting your heart involved with.

Indeed. The Premier League is of a pretty good standard. A LOT of pace and physical battles all over. Compared with the "boring" Italian leagues and Spanish football.
It is indeed very arguable........

sol, according to you, its pretty pointless trying to win the priemership. so if we do win the league, no point celebrating because sol wishes arsenal had won the primera liga instead!

Thank you for your thoughtful and constructive reply.


imo the English league is far far behind the other two in terms of quality, aswell as tactical and technical ability.

sorry but if you bring up a ridiculous issue like that, you get a ridiculous reply. but i will give you a constructive reply....

All the leagues have their own different features. The spanish league has the high technical ability as you have been saying, whilst the italian league is based on rigid defending, which might be boring but is very effective. The english league's unique feature more than makes up for the lag in tecnique when compared to the spanish league. This feature is determination, and the will to win. An example would be say man utd vs bolton last semptember. Bolton know they might not have the resources or the talent (and technique!) man utd have on show. But their manager had instilled a 11 v 11 menatality in them, it didnt matter what big names utd had playing, at the end day it was player vs player. And no matter what sweet football man utd played that day they found it impossible to break a determned bolton side. In spain, you would rarely see an upset of that proportion. Arsène wenger himself knows the importance of this determination in the english game thats why he was going on about how the current crop of players have inherited this from the english players that had left (i.e. adams, dixon e.t.c). he called it part of the culture of the club. No other league can boast this. Arsenal, though a continental team, have slowly instilled the art of winning ugly which we have seen quite a few times this season. It is for this reason that i feel the english league can hold its own against the elite of europe.

Actually I think manutd's loss yesterday just shows that the premiership is improving.Before Manutd and Arsenal used to dominate the proceedings.In the Spanish League all the top teams lose frequently and that shows the quality of La Liga.There are 6 teams who deserve to be in the top 4 in La Liga (to get the champions league berth).For example last year Valencia missed out on a cl berth!Here Newcastle and Liverpool are ****.Also past 5 years 4 teams have won the La Liga!

Actually I think manutd's loss yesterday just shows that the premiership is improving.Before Manutd and Arsenal used to dominate the proceedings.In the Spanish League all the top teams lose frequently and that shows the quality of La Liga.There are 6 teams who deserve to be in the top 4 in La Liga (to get the champions league berth).For example last year Valencia missed out on a cl berth!Here Newcastle and Liverpool are ****.Also past 5 years 4 teams have won the La Liga!

I agree with that - I think the EPL is getting better in terms that it seems we can have more than 2 teams seriously contending for the Premiership...and CONSISTENTLY (season after season) performing well in the Prem.. that's perhaps the main good thing to come out of the CHelski revolution.

I agree that of the big three leagues in Europe, the EPL is a little step down from Spain and Italy in terms of quality (though I must confess, watching Italian football gets too boring more often that I'd like it to - the rigid defence is effective, but makes for a not so exciting match sometimes)...but don't think it's that far behind.

Sol... But then again, Manure do beat the big teams in Europe...

What about Stuttgart?

sorry but if you bring up a ridiculous issue like that, you get a ridiculous reply. but i will give you a constructive reply....

All the leagues have their own different features. The spanish league has the high technical ability as you have been saying, whilst the italian league is based on rigid defending, which might be boring but is very effective. The english league's unique feature more than makes up for the lag in tecnique when compared to the spanish league. This feature is determination, and the will to win. An example would be say man utd vs bolton last semptember. Bolton know they might not have the resources or the talent (and technique!) man utd have on show. But their manager had instilled a 11 v 11 menatality in them, it didnt matter what big names utd had playing, at the end day it was player vs player. And no matter what sweet football man utd played that day they found it impossible to break a determned bolton side. In spain, you would rarely see an upset of that proportion. Arsène wenger himself knows the importance of this determination in the english game thats why he was going on about how the current crop of players have inherited this from the english players that had left (i.e. adams, dixon e.t.c). he called it part of the culture of the club. No other league can boast this. Arsenal, though a continental team, have slowly instilled the art of winning ugly which we have seen quite a few times this season. It is for this reason that i feel the english league can hold its own against the elite of europe.

Why is it a ridiculous issue?
Your post proves my point. You say the Spanish league is the best technically and the italian tactically, both of which are true.

Then you say the English makes up for it by having "determination, and the will to win."

That proves my point, and i thank you for it. That has nothing to do with footballing abiltiy. People may run around a lot and try harder, but that adds nothing to sheer quality. The art of defending does not exist in this country. It is a joke. Teams like Milan and Valencia would walk our league.

Again, thank you for proving my point.

The Wenger approach to managaement in totally non-tactical. it is based on the theory that, as long as you have technically skillful players, the manager's job is simply to get them in the right mental and physical condition - no instructions about tactics, no restrictions on their freedom, etc. this works brilliantly against 75% of teams but, against tacticallly sussed european sides (even weaker ones like kiev), it fails.

That isn't Wenger's approach. That is the english approach. Thats how most teams in england play like in europe, this country isn't about tactics, its about pace mainly.

Watch the Liverpool vs Arsenal game last season at anfield, I doubt you will find many matches in any european league as good as that match. The attacking display was stunning, R.Madrid would of been proud with our first half display. A shame we left empty handed, won't get into that though.........

Like I said the english teams are as good as any european sides. To say otherwise is totally wrong. Tactically we are miles behind. Sven has seen most top european sides, last season he said not a single person could ever convince him our sides aren't as good. Basically tactically we always get it wrong. Man utd could of beaten R.Madrid at old trafford and could of got through, they didn't because Fergie got his tactics horribly wrong. Juve showed the whole world what tactics are about, you see them against r.madrid in the 2nd leg, tactically they were simply perfect. They destroyed R.madrid, yes I mean destroyed.

Lets look at the top 2 leagues in the world. Has anyone noticed why do the italiens usually get the better of the spanish, its because tactically they are much better.

So basically what I'm saying is our teams are as good, just our tactics aren't right

The Wenger approach to managaement in totally non-tactical. it is based on the theory that, as long as you have technically skillful players, the manager's job is simply to get them in the right mental and physical condition - no instructions about tactics, no restrictions on their freedom, etc. this works brilliantly against 75% of teams but, against tacticallly sussed european sides (even weaker ones like kiev), it fails.

So basically what I'm saying is our teams are as good, just our tactics aren't right

Another post that proves my point.

Ever thought why it is that we are so hopeless tactically?
it is because the standard of team in the EPL is so very average that Arsneal/Mancs/Chelsea can basically put 11 players on the pitch with the aim of scoring more goals, and it works, as the table shows year in year out.
This approach though, will not work in Europe.

it is because the standard of team in the EPL is so very average that Arsneal/Mancs/Chelsea can basically put 11 players on the pitch with the aim of scoring more goals

Funny, I always thought that was the objective of football, to score more goals and the other team.

Everyday is a school day ...

Oh, and as for the teams in Europe being better tactically - I think you will find that despite Arsenal's poor approach to tactics, Italian teams have a poor record against us at Highbury.

Maybe their tactica aren't good enough ...

Oh, and we also have an excellent record against German teams.

I don't know, could just be that our objective is to score more goals than the opposition!

Just a wild guess.

it is because the standard of team in the EPL is so very average that Arsneal/Mancs/Chelsea can basically put 11 players on the pitch with the aim of scoring more goals

Funny, I always thought that was the objective of football, to score more goals and the other team.

Everyday is a school day ...

Almost a good attempt at sounding patronising.

I meant clever arse that they are able just to go out on the pitch and play, without any form of 'tactics,' something which if you do in Europe you will be found out. And something also you cant do in Italy or Spain.

Oh, and as for the teams in Europe being better tactically - I think you will find that despite Arsenal's poor approach to tactics, Italian teams have a poor record against us at Highbury.

Maybe their tactica aren't good enough ...

Oh, and we also have an excellent record against German teams.

I don't know, could just be that our objective is to score more goals than the opposition!

Just a wild guess.

So? We can beat them in one off games.

Just remind me of our overall record. Just a wild guess, but i think it is crap.

Almost a good attempt at sounding patronising.

I meant clever arse that they are able just to go out on the pitch and play, without any form of 'tactics,' something which if you do in Europe you will be found out. And something also you cant do in Italy or Spain.

Are you saying that Wenger, Fergie and Ranieri don't use any form of tactics in the Premier League?

Good grief. Who needs a manager then, eh? Just tell them 11 lads to go out on the pitch and play.

No wonder Man Utd lost to Fulham. And Arsenal beat Chelsea. Without any form of tactics.

Oh I don't know about the Spanish or Italian league. You seem to be much more of an expert, but I can just voucher a thought that I think their objective is to go out and score more goals than the opposition.

Always a good tactic to me.

Of course, unless the rules have changed ...

Just remind me of our overall record. Just a wild guess, but i think it is crap.

Since you asked for it:


v Juventus:
P W D L F A
4 2 1 1 5 3

v Lazio
P W D L F A
4 2 2 0 7 3

And there is that 0-3 lost to Inter.

Hardly "crap", as you put it.

Almost a good attempt at sounding patronising.

I meant clever arse that they are able just to go out on the pitch and play, without any form of 'tactics,' something which if you do in Europe you will be found out. And something also you cant do in Italy or Spain.

Are you saying that Wenger, Fergie and Ranieri don't use any form of tactics in the Premier League?

Good grief. Who needs a manager then, eh? Just tell them 11 lads to go out on the pitch and play.

No wonder Man Utd lost to Fulham. And Arsenal beat Chelsea. Without any form of tactics.

Oh I don't know about the Spanish or Italian league. You seem to be much more of an expert, but I can just voucher a thought that I think their objective is to go out and score more goals than the opposition.

Always a good tactic to me.

Of course, unless the rules have changed ...

But Ash your tactics are for 1 game you go on about the fulham match but thats a blip in a Season where you play with fresh players in May.