What can we learn from Dortmund and Montpellier???

Now I know both teams play in inferior leagues and both are somewhat selling club but to be frank in a lot of ways we are similar to both teams in a lot of ways.

1. We try and play attractive football
2. We can't compete with the leagues big spenders
3. If we won the league in 2013 after losing a major attacker it would be a shock

I'm sure you can all see why the comparison is being made in here. Question is can we topple the big spending giants in our league (equivalents of Lyon, PSG and Bayern) and mount a title challenge? unlikely but can we YES WE CAN.

The first step is becoming a great team and some may argue that by losing Thierry, then Cesc now seemingly RVP we will share responsibility rather than being over reliant on our star player I mean who even is our star player if RVP leaves?

The second step is playing the underdog role and to be fair we aren't even seen as even outside bets by most pundits and rival fans which may work in our favour if teams decide to start having a go at us.

I will stop there for now and see what peoples opinions are. My final sub question is would you be happy winning the title and remaining a selling club like Lille, Montpelier and Dortmund now are?? as long as we kept producing talent and remained competitive?

Ultimately it's 11 against 11 in each game and throughout football you see countless examples of the 'lesser' team overcoming the odds and claiming victory over a 'superior' rival.

Teams that overachieve in this way are typically very well drilled and organised teams that work well together and benefit from good tactics and smart substitutions.

Not quite sure Wenger has all of that in his kitbag, but there's no reason to think we can't 'overachieve' and claim a major trophy. First on the agenda would have to be the defence. If the defence is strong and we're hard to beat, there is every chance of achieving something more than many think we deserve.

Teams that overachieve in this way are typically very well drilled and organised teams that work well together and benefit from good tactics and smart substitutions.

That's certainly true for Dortmund (can't judge Montpellier). They're also very fit physically. Don't know how much their brilliant (home) support has contributed, but it has helped for sure.

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For the moment I'ld take winning a title while being a selling club over winning nothing and being the same selling club. Wouldn't take the deal if it meant being an eternal selling club.

Yes this is very true that organisation and discipline are constant themes of overachieving teams. Maybe also the 'no superstar' approach also. It's a long shot but if Theo, Wilshere, Ox, Giroud and Podolski had the seasons that their talent promises then attacking wise we have more than enough BUT you have to be able to win some games 1-0 and maybe that's what we don't have yet.

We'd have to be extremely lucky with injuries and decisions from referees (how likely is that?) to even come close to winning the league as it currently stands. Dortmund really only had to beat Bayern to the league and the French league is a mess where basically any side can win it until PSG start dominating like Lyon used to do. Compare that to the PL where we'd have to do better than Manchester City, Manchester United and Chelsea over 38 games and it seems almost impossible.

Now I know both teams play in inferior leagues and both are somewhat selling club but to be frank in a lot of ways we are similar to both teams in a lot of ways.

1. We try and play attractive football
2. We can't compete with the leagues big spenders
3. If we won the league in 2013 after losing a major attacker it would be a shock

I'm sure you can all see why the comparison is being made in here. Question is can we topple the big spending giants in our league (equivalents of Lyon, PSG and Bayern) and mount a title challenge? unlikely but can we YES WE CAN.

The first step is becoming a great team and some may argue that by losing Thierry, then Cesc now seemingly RVP we will share responsibility rather than being over reliant on our star player I mean who even is our star player if RVP leaves?

The second step is playing the underdog role and to be fair we aren't even seen as even outside bets by most pundits and rival fans which may work in our favour if teams decide to start having a go at us.

I will stop there for now and see what peoples opinions are. My final sub question is would you be happy winning the title and remaining a selling club like Lille, Montpelier and Dortmund now are?? as long as we kept producing talent and remained competitive?

Happy yes! Is it likely? No! The French league is ****.

The Bundesliga is better, but apart from Bayern how many teams have more spending power than Dortmund? I don't know the answer, but it can't be many if any. We have 4-5-6 teams in our league who outspend us. Even Bayern spend within reason. They are like United and can be caught by opponents who use their resources well. Apart from United and Liverpool we have to compete with City, Chelski and possibly Spurs who have limitless resources.

Dortmund also seem to have a more productive academy than we do.

It has also helped Dortmund that Bayern have a few characters in their squad that are known to hide when the going gets tough in Robben and Ribery.

If Man Utd have taught us anything it's that it is the most consistent team that wins the league. If we get more points than the 19 other teams then we will be champions, cliche tired saying but it's true.

I don't like the word overachieving though, were Dortmund supposed to roll over and let Bayern win the title race just because Bayern are a big club? Whatever you achieve in football is because you earn it through hardwork and dedication. If you labeled everything as overachieving/underachieving then achievements on the whole will lose their value as people will just dismiss it by saying "Oh Bayern weren't at their best" while forgetting all the hard work that Dortmund put in.

In football on any given day you don't know what will happen and anybody really can beat anybody as shown by Birmingham beating us in the CC final, Chelsea toppling Barcelona and Wigan beating Man Utd last season. Those are results in isolation though and you need consistency over a league season. Blackburn beat Man Utd at Old Trafford but still went down.

In the grand scheme of things though, Montpellier finished 14th in ligue 1 in 2010-11. We finished third last season so we have a lot less steps to climb then Montpellier then and in terms of league history we are a much bigger club in England than Montpellier are in France. People also forget that Dortmund have won trophies in the past, they didn't just come out of the blue to win league titles. They won the Champions league in 1997 and have won 8 league titles. That's not too shabby a record.

If you're asking what we can learn from modern day Dortmund then it's simple. The best team wins the league, if you deserve to win it over the course of a season then you will, no special tricks, no smoke and mirrors, fancy lights or anything of the sort. If you win it then you are the best team in the country and if we want to have any aspirations of winning the league again then that's what we have to be, the best team in the country.

I can't speak to Montpellier because I only watched a spattering of Ligue 1 games (actually the Cup games were better).

To me, Dortmund's midfield work-rate and defensive solidity is what put them in a position to be able to win Bundesliga. Dortmund only conceded 25 league goals, and have gone 28 league games unbeaten. (Interestingly, Schalke finished in 3rd having conceded 44 goals.)

Teams that overachieve in this way are typically very well drilled and organised teams that work well together and benefit from good tactics and smart substitutions.

Not quite sure Wenger has all of that in his kitbag, but there's no reason to think we can't 'overachieve' and claim a major trophy. First on the agenda would have to be the defence. If the defence is strong and we're hard to beat, there is every chance of achieving something more than many think we deserve.

Exactly. Dortmund won their first title by conceding almost half as many goals as Munich. Montpellier have done the same now in France(PSG and Lille scored more goals). We'd have more chances of winning cups if we were stronger defensively too

For me absolutely nothing. I know you mentioned this in your opening post but winning the PL is a million miles away from winning the German and particularly the French league.

It always annoys me when people say 'oh look X won the Z league spending no money - it can be done' as if it was anywhere near that simple.

For me absolutely nothing. I know you mentioned this in your opening post but winning the PL is a million miles away from winning the German and particularly the French league.

It always annoys me when people say 'oh look X won the Z league spending no money - it can be done' as if it was anywhere near that simple.

Exactly. To win the Premier League, you need to beat the financial strength of Chelsea, Manchester City as well as Manchester United, so long as Lord Wrigley is there. And even if you win it, you will find it much hard to retain the title.

Sooner or later, PSG will win the league in France.

Nigh on impossible to replicate their success league-wise.

IMO the comparisson beame null & void as soon as Dortmund successfully DEFENDED their Bundesliga title last season (after having sold their premier player from their 1st title). Defending the PL title is something AW has failed to do so at ANY time.

So far as competition for the league title goes IMO Serie A is a more apt comparisson regarding the number of contenders.

The killer blow for Arsenal these last few years is that each season they have lost one of or more of their most important players. Quite frankly I know of no other side that has been able to adjust, change formation, tactics so many times in recent seasons to accommodate this revolving door saga. To our credit we have always maintained a presence in the CL whilst suffering this "crippling" loss of talent. The teamwork that a Dortmund show has been brought about by good coaching and the fact that the team has been together for a few years now without any major loss of stars. Arsenal on the other hand has lost a MAJOR star EVERY season thus affecting the bonding of the team and weakening the collective.

Arsène pulls off miracles in keeping this team competitive when you think of how much "talent" has slipped out the front door in recent seasons.

If we were able to keep our squad together and by that I mean the best players then I know we could challenge mega-bucks Chelsea, $hitty, UTd and the rest. However, the reality is, as we are once again experiencing, that we lose our star player and thus have to rebuild yet again. Thus making it almost impossible to beat the big(ger) boys over the course of a season.

Which important players have Chelsea, Utd or $hitty lost in the last few years? I can't think of any.

It would be like UTD losing a Rooney every season, or Chelsea losing a Drogba-how would they fare then?

IMO the comparisson beame null & void as soon as Dortmund successfully DEFENDED their Bundesliga title last season (after having sold their premier player from their 1st title). Defending the PL title is something AW has failed to do so at ANY time.

So far as competition for the league title goes IMO Serie A is a more apt comparisson regarding the number of contenders.

Hence the title what can we learn from them .

IMO the comparisson beame null & void as soon as Dortmund successfully DEFENDED their Bundesliga title last season (after having sold their premier player from their 1st title). Defending the PL title is something AW has failed to do so at ANY time.

So far as competition for the league title goes IMO Serie A is a more apt comparisson regarding the number of contenders.

Hence the title what can we learn from them .

Somehow I don't think it was intended that way - seemed to me it was focused upon resources & the little fancied club v the big boys/spending.

Here's another take on it that was alluded to in an earlier post = choose your battles & priorities.

AW has his development project,
whilst we are looking to be competitive & win titles.
As our business model & current strategies lay we can NOT do BOTH at the same time,
as the 'needs' of AW's methodology when applied to his project are directly counter productive to being competitive to compete & win titles.
Further to this because of the 'needs' of the development project then it also perpetuates the endless revolving door cycle regarding our senior & top class players as they start to reach their potential.

Bottom line - develop the kids & become a glorified academy;
challenge for titles & let the kids develop elsewhere;
or change your business model strategies to enable BOTH to occur.

Other clubs are able to challenge AND develop youngsters as seen at Dortmund,
however we can not do so because of AW's training & coaching methodology that relies upon player development via game time.
A different manager with a different methodology would be able to do both,
just as Rodgers can get a squad of domestic players from a lower division to play possession passing football whilst being technically 'inferior'.

Anzac in derailing thread into anti-AW rant shocker! Unprecedented!

IMO the comparisson beame null & void as soon as Dortmund successfully DEFENDED their Bundesliga title last season (after having sold their premier player from their 1st title). Defending the PL title is something AW has failed to do so at ANY time.

So far as competition for the league title goes IMO Serie A is a more apt comparisson regarding the number of contenders.

Hence the title what can we learn from them .

Somehow I don't think it was intended that way - seemed to me it was focused upon resources & the little fancied club v the big boys/spending.

Yes exactly it's what can we learn from Dortmund and Montpellier not so much a comparison as you alluded to.

Happy yes! Is it likely? No! The French league is ****.

The Bundesliga is better, but apart from Bayern how many teams have more spending power than Dortmund? I don't know the answer, but it can't be many if any. We have 4-5-6 teams in our league who outspend us. Even Bayern spend within reason. They are like United and can be caught by opponents who use their resources well. Apart from United and Liverpool we have to compete with City, Chelski and possibly Spurs who have limitless resources.

Dortmund also seem to have a more productive academy than we do.

You will find there are 19 teams that out spend us in the league

based on Sky's data since moving to Emirates

To be honest, in our 2007/08 season we were just 4 points away from being a similar success story. 4 points.

Dear Truth Hurts,

I am surprised you didn't include Udinese in your comparison.
which is more of a comparison than both Dortmund or Montpellier.

Udinese lost their star player EVERY SEASON except for their talisman Toto Di Natale (which is actually too old to be sold) and yet crept up their league above Inter, Napoli, Lazio and Roma who literally have better squad for two consecutive season. And one penalty kick away from kicking us from CL.
While there's no sane people would bet on them to lift scudetto, learning how they can literally punch above their weight is something crucial to our team.
Something I believe that's why you are making this thread.

Seems I am the only one who see Udinese as a good team...

Seems I am the only one who see Udinese as a good team...

You're not looking hard enough.

the bundesliga and ligue 1 may be of lower quality, but it's the same concept. It's not as if the other 19 teams threw in the towel and said "oh well we're all **** because we play in this country anyway." and that's how they won it.

we're good relative to our league. We're a top 4 team.

Montpellier specifically, were not a top team, even relative to ligue 1 and yet they still won it.

It's not as if we're trying to win a harder league with the same quality of players as these other teams did, so writing them off as useless exceptions because of inferior leagues makes no sense. We have the players and the ability, but something isn't clicking. Those teams lacked the type of players we have, but something about the way they behaved or played worked. That's what we can learn from.

No one thinks we need to model ourselves on a french or german team that somehow won the league as underdogs. But it wouldn't hurt to take a look and see what those out of nowhere victors might have in common.

Happy yes! Is it likely? No! The French league is ****.

The Bundesliga is better, but apart from Bayern how many teams have more spending power than Dortmund? I don't know the answer, but it can't be many if any. We have 4-5-6 teams in our league who outspend us. Even Bayern spend within reason. They are like United and can be caught by opponents who use their resources well. Apart from United and Liverpool we have to compete with City, Chelski and possibly Spurs who have limitless resources.

Dortmund also seem to have a more productive academy than we do.

You will find there are 19 teams that out spend us in the league

based on Sky's data since moving to Emirates

Did you fail maths at school? We might have the lowest net transfer spend of all Premiership clubs, but we have the 4th or 5th highest wage bill.I can't believe there are still people out there who only look at transfer fees.

Dear Truth Hurts,

I am surprised you didn't include Udinese in your comparison.
which is more of a comparison than both Dortmund or Montpellier.

Udinese lost their star player EVERY SEASON except for their talisman Toto Di Natale (which is actually too old to be sold) and yet crept up their league above Inter, Napoli, Lazio and Roma who literally have better squad for two consecutive season. And one penalty kick away from kicking us from CL.
While there's no sane people would bet on them to lift scudetto, learning how they can literally punch above their weight is something crucial to our team.
Something I believe that's why you are making this thread.

Seems I am the only one who see Udinese as a good team...

Udinese are a good side but there's not really anything we can learn from them tbf, not exactly doing anything that we aren't.

Happy yes! Is it likely? No! The French league is ****.

The Bundesliga is better, but apart from Bayern how many teams have more spending power than Dortmund? I don't know the answer, but it can't be many if any. We have 4-5-6 teams in our league who outspend us. Even Bayern spend within reason. They are like United and can be caught by opponents who use their resources well. Apart from United and Liverpool we have to compete with City, Chelski and possibly Spurs who have limitless resources.

Dortmund also seem to have a more productive academy than we do.

You will find there are 19 teams that out spend us in the league

based on Sky's data since moving to Emirates

Did you fail maths at school? We might have the lowest net transfer spend of all Premiership clubs, but we have the 4th or 5th highest wage bill.I can't believe there are still people out there who only look at transfer fees.

wow nice to see you're an ass. Point being made is we spent less than majority of the teams

wow nice to see you're an ass. Point being made is we spent less than majority of the teams[/quote]

No, we don't! Lets assume Stoke or Sunderland have an annual deficit of 15 million on transfer fees. Then lets assume their annual first team wage bill is 35 million. That means they have spent 50 million.

Now lets assume Arsenal have made an average net profit of 15 million on transfer fees, but their wage bill is 100 million. That means Arsenal have effectively spent 85 million which is considerably more than Stoke and Sunderland.

Bottom line is City, Chelski and United definitely outspend us. Liverpool possibly do as well. We spend more than the other 15 teams in the league, so realistically 4th - 5th is where we should expect to finish. Anything above that would be over-achieving and anything below that under-achieving.

If Spurs get the Qatari investment we'd drop to 5th - 6th highest spenders.

In the context of the original post that means Dortmund only have leapfrog one club with deeper pockets. Thats possible as we proved last season by finishing higher than at least one (but possibly two) club who spent more than us. Finishing higher than 5 or 6 bigger spenders is not doable in the modern game.

To be honest, in our 2007/08 season we were just 4 points away from being a similar success story. 4 points.

In the grand scheme of things, Manchester United should have wrapped up the title much earlier. How it got to the final day, I don't know.

As for Arsenal, the four draws in February and March is what killed the team. Case of a team peaking too soon.

Dortmund played as a team, with very good individuals in each position, no weaknesses. Unlike the weaknesses we've had, ie last season no real CAM, in the past lack of defensive cover. They just had quality players too all over the park, think of how many that would walk into our side.

Philosophy wise, Dortmund is very similar to us, with their focus on youth development and finding gems in the market.

Let's no put what we've achieved down too much either, we've won trophies despite spending much less than Man United and we've been inches away from the league and Champions League. We are a great club