Does Arsenal's academy need more investment?

As a team that believes in youth it seems to me we don't develop enough players from 6-16. Other than Wilshere and Ashley Cole we've bought most of our best youngsters in at 15-18 from other clubs. We're often called Barcelona light so why arn't we copying their academy? (Especially now when we can recruit from further than 90mins away)

Dortmund have a Barcelona style academy and look at the players they've been producing!

Aneke, Frimpong, Yennaris, Afobe are all from the academy and recruited between 6-16 and either are or will be first team players. The barca academy is much older than ours so this is our first true arsenal generation coming through. I'm satisfied.

I think you're being very optimistic, i think all will be at least Championship players but i wouldnt go further than that. (Frimpong is probably the best of the bunch)

Depends on what you mean by more investment - financial or as in emphasis?

Firstly we need to achieve the new top level ratings from the FA;
then we need to recuit more domestic players regardless of where they are now that the 90 minute rule is no longer applicable;
then we need to set our systems football approach in the foundation of all we do;
and then not only provide then with the technical skills but ALSO coach/drill into that style of play.

IMO our/AW's 'failing' is that he relies upon player intelligence to make the decisions on the pitch (as opposed to coaching drills or sideline tactical instructions). However players at Barca, Ajax and even City's Galacticos are heavily coached & drilled into the fundamental requirements of their styles of play. Far too often we don't appear to be on the pitch & reports from players indicate our training places more emphasis on the individual and/or small passing triangle activities, as opposed to how to apply that as a unit, or in attack or defence.

Both i would say Anzac, I think we're neglecting 6-12 age groups and if we ever hoped to produce players like Barcelona we would need to incorporate a boarding school to our academy. Something like 6-12 optional boarders then 12-18 encouraged as they would be at the club from 8-8 to incorporate school and training. Also boarding would mean diet control and control over social lives. How many of us know good footballers that lost their way in their mid/late teens?

No.

If we're comparing our academy to Barcelona's then of course we're going to look inadequate. This is the best generation of Spanish footballers ever and they've been refining their academy and keeping to the same philosophy since Cruyff was the manager in the late 80's. And they also have the best player in the world who scores over a goal a game, so that will make any team look much better.

I think our academy is really good, but being a top team it is hard for them to make it. The likelihood of a player of 18, 19, or 20 breaking through to the first team and being better than the best available player in the world in his position is very slim.

But if you look at our current squad it is pretty clear that academy players are making their mark. Szczesny, Mannone, Djourou, Gibbs, Coquelin, Frimpong, and Wilshere all came through the academy. Right behind them we have Yennaris, Aneke, Afobe, Henderson and Gnabry all knocking on the door of the first team.

I'd say that 7 first teamers is a good return on the investment, and that even the ones that don't make it we're able to sell for a profit.

No.

If we're comparing our academy to Barcelona's then of course we're going to look inadequate. This is the best generation of Spanish footballers ever and they've been refining their academy and keeping to the same philosophy since Cruyff was the manager in the late 80's. And they also have the best player in the world who scores over a goal a game, so that will make any team look much better.

I think our academy is really good, but being a top team it is hard for them to make it. The likelihood of a player of 18, 19, or 20 breaking through to the first team and being better than the best available player in the world in his position is very slim.

But if you look at our current squad it is pretty clear that academy players are making their mark. Szczesny, Mannone, Djourou, Gibbs, Coquelin, Frimpong, and Wilshere all came through the academy. Right behind them we have Yennaris, Aneke, Afobe, Henderson and Gnabry all knocking on the door of the first team.

I'd say that 7 first teamers is a good return on the investment, and that even the ones that don't make it we're able to sell for a profit.

IMO we are not even close to the success of the likes of our own domestic counterparts in City, LFC, ManU, WHam or Saints, let alone the CL standard required from Barca, Ajax or SLB.
We still buy in most of our success from off shore.

Of those 7 only Szczesny is a genuine 1st teamer,
with Wilshere having been one until injured prior to the purchase of Arteta & Cazorla, & the rest are no more than Senior Squad players.
That's not bad but it's no where good enough for a club that places an emphasis on internal youth development ABOVE that of the match day squad.

No.

If we're comparing our academy to Barcelona's then of course we're going to look inadequate. This is the best generation of Spanish footballers ever and they've been refining their academy and keeping to the same philosophy since Cruyff was the manager in the late 80's. And they also have the best player in the world who scores over a goal a game, so that will make any team look much better.

I think our academy is really good, but being a top team it is hard for them to make it. The likelihood of a player of 18, 19, or 20 breaking through to the first team and being better than the best available player in the world in his position is very slim.

But if you look at our current squad it is pretty clear that academy players are making their mark. Szczesny, Mannone, Djourou, Gibbs, Coquelin, Frimpong, and Wilshere all came through the academy. Right behind them we have Yennaris, Aneke, Afobe, Henderson and Gnabry all knocking on the door of the first team.

I'd say that 7 first teamers is a good return on the investment, and that even the ones that don't make it we're able to sell for a profit.

other than frimpong and wilshere all those players came to us at 15-16 and weren't developed by us.

Our academy is getting better and it's a bit hit and miss with young players. Maybe 1 out of every 100 may come good. Does that ratio seem right? We have some very promising talent in the academy now and when you look at who seems to be next in line to make the step up it may be more promising than at any other time in our recent history.

How long has Dortmund's academy being going now? Not sure how long Arsneal's academy has been around but certainly the seriousness surrounding how it's operated and the importance of growing our own players is as important or moreso than at any other time that I can remember.

Our academy is getting better and it's a bit hit and miss with young players. Maybe 1 out of every 100 may come good. Does that ratio seem right? We have some very promising talent in the academy now and when you look at who seems to be next in line to make the step up it may be more promising than at any other time in our recent history.

How long has Dortmund's academy being going now? Not sure how long Arsneal's academy has been around but certainly the seriousness surrounding how it's operated and the importance of growing our own players is as important or moreso than at any other time that I can remember.

If you really want to get nitpicky we can always find a problem with something. But right now we have 7 players from the youth program who are part of the first team. Szczesny, and Gibbs are starters. Wilshere was a starter before his injury and may be one when he gets back. Mannone has looked good this season and Djourou, Coq and Frimpong are squad players.

We can say that we should have more or could be better, but if anything we have increased our focus towards developing quality young players. Making Bould and Banfield first team coaches will only increase the chances of young players moving to the first team. Wenger also said that he didn't buy a replacement for Song because he had Coquelin and Frimpong.

Overall, I'm pleased with it and our participation in the Next Gen series will only improve our young players.

I would like us to develop more players from 12 onwards instead of bringing in the best from abroad. The players should be well drilled in our style but not exclusively as variety is a big part of football. I would like us to bring through only the best and be more ruthless with those not deemed good enough ie Kyle Bartley. Sell 3 or 4 players like that for 1m and the academy will soon be paying for itself.

Its very hard for Arsenal because if we try to find young english players then we are competing with 7-8 good London teams for the signature and also Arsenal are only allowed to scout players from a specific area

Barcelona sign players at the age of 11-12 and apart from Espanyol have no competition plus they can buy overseas players at a very young age and especially from south america

Saying that we right now have
Szczesny
Mannone
Gibbs
Miquel
Djourou
Coquelin
Frimpong
Wilshere
in the first team that have either come through our youth or played in the youth or reserve games before coming into the first team

Is it the academy thats not producing the Messi's of this world, or is it more that "potential" good players are hard to come by, world class even less so. Much of the problem with getting Messi-types is the UK system for bringing in Non-EU nationals at a young age, which is something that the club simply cant do anything about. So maybe the UK based scouting system we have in place for youths/kids needs a bit of a refinement?

Are we really THAT far away from our domestic rivals in this regard?

Aston Villa - They are bringing youngsters through, mostly because they have to, and none of them have looked that great. Best one to have "made it" and established himself is Agbonlahor

Chelsea - Is Bertand theres or did they buy him? Either way they haven't brought though a player of their own since Terry

Everton - Have produced some pretty good players in Rooney, Rodwell, Osman, but that's still not loads

Fulham - Smalling wasn't theres. Matthew Briggs is supposed to be a good prospect

Liverpool - Gerrard, Carragher, Owen, Murphy, Kelly, Sterling. They've produced a lot, but I wouldn't say anywhere close enough to be envious about

Man Utd - Obviously Scholes, Giggs, Beckham etc. More recently Cleverly, Welbeck and theres a whole host of former Utd academy players scattered along the lower leagues. Definitely ahead of us, but they've dried up a fair bit themselves

Man City - Stephen Ireland is theres as is Micah Richards. Other than that? Joe Hart isn't theres

Newcastle - Steven Taylor and Andy Carroll in recent times

QPR - I really don't know

Reading - Same

Southampton - Bale, Walcott, Ox, Lallana. Yup, they are producing decent players and have had a good academy for a while now

Sunderland - ? Colback?

Swansea - Joe Allen, Taylor. Then i'm struggling

West Ham - Yes, good academy, has been for a while now. Lampard, Ferdinand, Joe Cole, G Johnson

Then i'm struggling with West Brom and Wigan

The thing is, there isn't a problem with our academy, theres a current problem across the board with producing top English players. Something that has been brought on by numerous factors written about by numerous people (style of our league, win at all cost mentality, lack of good training facilities all the way through to our climate). Thing is we try to play a very different brand of football than your typical "english team" it requires technique that a lot of English players just dont have. That's why for me Wenger has been reluctant to buy English and why also when we do start playing an English player, they get into the England team almost straight away, because usually their technical level is above their fellow players because to play for us it has to be

The one player that made it for us (Cole) went on to become the best LB in the world and maybe the best LB ever. The next one (Jack) looks also set to become one of the best players in the world. Anyone else we've produced during that time hasn't gone on to prove they would be any good for us. The sad fact is is that youth training in England is only just NOW starting to change because the authorities have realised that to compete against the best, we can no longer rely on our never say die spirit and are getting left way behind in terms of technique by even the smaller nations (Algeria in the WC comes to mind). We won't see any fruit from this labour for at least another 10-15 years IMO

If your complaining about Arsenal bringing in players too late for Arsenal to have been considered to have "produced" them, then you could say the same for Barcelona.

Puyol- 17; Alcantara- 14; Busquets- 17; Pedro- 17; Cueca- 18; Fontas- 17 and Iniesta was 12 when he joined Barcelona (young enough I suppose).

I think we need to be more ruthless and just kick players out, if we think that they will never make it here. Players like Eastmond, Hoyte, Freeman, Murphy, who never got a serious chance in the first team, shouldn't have stayed here for that long. We are just wasting wages on them.

Its hard in one sense to be critical because setting up an academy isn't something that can be done in a year or two. I would definately be more critical if a few of the current group don't become top seniopr players. They have had a full run through when everything was set-up so it will be a big tell tale to see how close we are.

Also when you consider how many players that came through the academy and are playing in the prem/c-ship we are producing a lot of good pros.

Also you would have to think thay guys like wilshere would come through regardless of what coaching was done.

We are losing out alot because of work permits, if not we'd have shed loads of South American, North American, African, Asian talents at our club at young young ages.

That said, I think our academy is decent enough, a tad overrated but just look at how many PL decent established players are from our academy. Most don't make it here but doesn't mean they are bad players, just that our standards are too high.

@ Cruisio, Liverpool signed Sterling 2 years ago at 15 from QPR, while Danny Murphy was signed at 20 years old from Crewe Alexander.

Saw a stat few years ago, only Manure had more players from their academy playing throughout the English leagues for other clubs than Arsenal. Think our Academy is quality when you look at what we've produced in the last 10 years, Bentley, Cole Gibbs and Jack all have received England recognition while the likes of Stokes, Bradley Johnson, Mark Noble, Lansbury, Bothroyd, Justin Hoyte, countless others have gone on from Arsenal to do well at other Premiership and Championship clubs.

Well there we go then

Fact is there isn't one really stand out academy in our country because of the reasons I stated in my earlier post. Most of the decent ones are at lower leagues or further down the table (Southampton, West Ham, Charlton used to have a good one etc)

Also GDeep we took Gibbs from Wimbledon's academy when that team disbanded, so he technically isn't ours

Wasn't Shearer a Southampton product?

Sure was. After being turned down by Newcastle as they put him in goal during his trial I believe

The one player that made it for us (Cole) went on to become the best LB in the world and maybe the best LB ever. The next one (Jack) looks also set to become one of the best players in the world. Anyone else we've produced during that time hasn't gone on to prove they would be any good for us. The sad fact is is that youth training in England is only just NOW starting to change because the authorities have realised that to compete against the best, we can no longer rely on our never say die spirit and are getting left way behind in terms of technique by even the smaller nations (Algeria in the WC comes to mind). We won't see any fruit from this labour for at least another 10-15 years IMO

Cashley maybe the best LB ever? Have you ever heard of Paolo Maldini and Roberto Carlos?

Everything else I agree with. Although being a Ryo fan boy I'm going to have to say that he too along with JW10 will be another future world class player that has technically come through our academy unless high schools are considered academies these days. I also still have high hopes for Aneke and Afobe. If its true that Farca considered poaching those two then surely they have considerable talent.

Don't think Ashley Cole's name looks too out of place in that company, although he is below them.

Cole has been comfortably the best left back in world football for the last 5 years.

John Terry is a product of West Ham's youth system.

Ashley Cole has been the best left back in the world since 2004.

Some serious overrating of Cole around here imo, around 2004 Zambrotta was the best LB clearly, until his move to Barcelona where he faded a little. Then it was Abidal, followed by that little git Lahm. Cole is great at flashy last ditch tackles, is usually solid in defence but has lost the attacking side of his game at Chelsea.

Think the title of best LB in the world is Jordi Alba's for the next few years barring injury, immense ball control and passing for a fullback, great pace and insane stamina to boot. Had a great last season at Valencia, was tearing teams apart on the left side even though they played more or less with two LBs with him and Mathieu, and he showed that he can do it on a bigger stage too at the Euros, Barcelona sure know their left backs.

Some serious overrating of Cole around here imo, around 2004 Zambrotta was the best LB clearly, until his move to Barcelona where he faded a little. Then it was Abidal, followed by that little git Lahm. Cole is great at flashy last ditch tackles, is usually solid in defence but has lost the attacking side of his game at Chelsea.

Abidal never really had the attacking side to begin with. Cole at his best was a level above Abidal Imo because of this. Lahm and Zambrotta are probably not seen as specialist LBs, as they also have played regularly as RB for large parts of their carreers.
For me, Lahm is the most complete full-back at the moment, be it RB or LB.

The one player that made it for us (Cole) went on to become the best LB in the world and maybe the best LB ever. The next one (Jack) looks also set to become one of the best players in the world. Anyone else we've produced during that time hasn't gone on to prove they would be any good for us. The sad fact is is that youth training in England is only just NOW starting to change because the authorities have realised that to compete against the best, we can no longer rely on our never say die spirit and are getting left way behind in terms of technique by even the smaller nations (Algeria in the WC comes to mind). We won't see any fruit from this labour for at least another 10-15 years IMO

Cashley maybe the best LB ever? Have you ever heard of Paolo Maldini and Roberto Carlos?

Everything else I agree with. Although being a Ryo fan boy I'm going to have to say that he too along with JW10 will be another future world class player that has technically come through our academy unless high schools are considered academies these days. I also still have high hopes for Aneke and Afobe. If its true that Farca considered poaching those two then surely they have considerable talent.

In fairness I mostly consider Maldini a CB

For me, Cole completely changed what a full back was all about. He had the attacking flair of someone like Carlos and great attacking fullbacks before him, but he also lined it up with turning into one hell of a defender, he could get by on his defence alone in all honesty, but he doesn't, he adds both. Certainly in my life time i've never seen anyone do both the attacking side and the defensive role of a full back as well as he does (for me Carlos was a bit weak defensively). Now all full backs are expected to be both whereas they used to just be one or the other

Correct, Terry was another West Ham product

But that's another way of looking at it, lets look at where the best English squad today have come from...

J.Hart - Shewsbury
G.Johnson/K.Walker/M.Richards - West Ham, Sheffield Utd, Man City
Terry, Ferdinand, Cahill, Jagielka, Lescott - West Ham (x2), Aston Villa, Sheffield Utd, Wolves
Cole, Baines, Bertrand, Gibbs - Arsenal (x2) Liverpool, Gillingham

Gerrard, Lampard, Wilshere, Cleverly, Parker, Carrick, Milner - Liverpool, West Ham (x2), Arsenal, Man Utd, Charlton, Leeds

Walcott, Young, Sturridge, A.Johnson - Southampton, Watford, Man City, Middlesborough

Rooney, Welbeck, Defoe - Man Utd (x2), Charlton

Realistically, there are none there we could have realistically got that would have turned out to be good enough for us (i'm including the 90 minute rule in this) and it's not exactly like we've regretted letting any academy products go. The players being produced just aren't good enough spread across most of the country

i would consider Rooney an Everton product, not a ManUtd product. (just to be pedantic)