Arsenal Tactics Talk

[RandyMarsh]

(Continued) If anyone's interested also, this is our stats when we had Welbeck at ST:

Pl 16/ W 8/ D 4/ L 4 Win Percentage: 50%

And that god awful 4-1-4-1 at the start of last season with Wilshere and Ramsey in CAM and Özil on the wing:

Pl 9/ W 3/ D 3/ L 3 Win Percentage: 33%

 

[Bould14]

Giroud needs speed around him because he doesn't have any. As everyone as posted before. When he have no wingers around Giroud they almost in a sense negate his strong attributes.

Wenger is stuck in his head wants to fit all these midfielders.

 

[Gooner n Proud]

At the start of 13/14 where we played our best football for years and Giroud was in the form of his Arsenal career our attacking quartet most games was:

Wilshere---Özil---Cazorla
Giroud

With Ramsey in behind, none of those players are particularly quick but the system got the best out of Giroud.

 

[Batman]

At the start of 13/14 where we played our best football for years and Giroud was in the form of his Arsenal career our attacking quartet most games was:

Wilshere---Özil---Cazorla
Giroud

With Ramsey in behind, none of those players are particularly quick but the system got the best out of Giroud.

Any team built around getting the best out of Giroud is doomed. You can't put a squad out to cater to a player that average. It's madness. This team should be built to get the best out of the likes of Sanchez, Özil and Cech who actually are World Class or at the very least have displayed the kind of World Class ability that wins you trophies. What happened in the first half of 13/14 doesn't matter at all now. If Giroud has shown anything in his time here it's that his hot patches don't last and even when he's playing well his finishing is suspect and he needs too many easy chances to score. You can't build your attack to cater to a player like that. When he's at his best Giroud is acting as a fulcrum and laying the ball off to the wide players making runs inside. Frankly I'd rather just play with pace up front which actually puts fear into defenders and creates space and rely on excellent passers like Cazorla and Özil to find runners rather than Giroud.

 

[yybecause]

At the start of 13/14 where we played our best football for years and Giroud was in the form of his Arsenal career our attacking quartet most games was:

Wilshere---Özil---Cazorla
Giroud

With Ramsey in behind, none of those players are particularly quick but the system got the best out of Giroud.

Walcott was playing wide there, and it was crucial for Giroud, just as Ramsey making all those runs and scoring for fun. As soon as those tho went down, our hame suffered and Giroud became a torn in the eye for many

 

[Jazz]

Those stats are telling, especially since most people had already figured as much from watching our games so its not just a numbers myth.

I really just want us to get a proper striker in so Wenger will have no choice but to bench Giroud and have 2 pacey winger since 2 of Alexis, Ox or Theo must start surely.

Second best option would be to get a starting winger so at least this would 100% mean 2 pacey winger since Alexis would obviously be on the other wing. The only issue is that this may not bench Giroud.

The worst outcome is we don't get any attacker which probably means a midfielder on the wing and Giroud up front. Even though we are perfectly capable of doing:
Alexis.......Theo......Ox
I think we all know it mostly likely won't happen.

 

[Maxim]

Walcott was playing wide there, and it was crucial for Giroud, just as Ramsey making all those runs and scoring for fun. As soon as those tho went down, our hame suffered and Giroud became a torn in the eye for many

Actually, Theo barely played at the start of that season because he was injured for most of it. In fact, he finished that season with less than 800 mins played in the league.

It was just that the we had our best midfielder playing consistently in midfield with the team built around him ...and he absolutely ran the show.

 

[Maxim]

At the start of 13/14 where we played our best football for years and Giroud was in the form of his Arsenal career our attacking quartet most games was:

Wilshere---Özil---Cazorla
Giroud

With Ramsey in behind, none of those players are particularly quick but the system got the best out of Giroud.

Agree, and to add to that, most games the 5 midfielders played behind Giroud were any 5 of Arteta, Flamini, Rosicky, Özil, Santi, Wilshere and ofcourse Ramsey.

The most surprising thing about that season is Ramsey actually played many games alongside Flamini who is just as limited on the ball is Coq is. Flamini actually played as much in 13/14 as Coq did in 14/15.

Contrary to popular belief, I think he can form a partnership with Coq, you just have to give the two a chance to actually play next to each other and build that partnership, just as Coq and Santi did, just as Ramsey and Arteta did. It isn't always perfect from the off.

I pray Arsène doesn't listen to the masses and plonk santi back in the middle with coq. It isn't a long term solution, you cannot build the team around a MF pair of a 30 year old with no physicality and a very limited destroyer as much as I love both.

All the while one of the best all action midfielders in the world is shoved wide or warming the bench.

Don't do it Arsène..... please.

 

[SA Gunner]

I wanted to resurrect this thread to ask questions about our ability to deal with the tactics displayed against us last night.

Sure you can tie it to the opening goal which destabilized our game management plans, but if we look closer we can tie this defeat and the subsequent tactics to a few other teams as well.

Thoughts?

 

[TheGlitch]

I wanted to resurrect this thread to ask questions about our ability to deal with the tactics displayed against us last night.

Sure you can tie it to the opening goal which destabilized our game management plans, but if we look closer we can tie this defeat and the subsequent tactics to a few other teams as well.

Thoughts?

Not much you can do with a ref like that.
We needed refreshment, same set of players again again.
They played 442 for much of the game, push up on us and ddnt let us really get comfy.
We fell into a trap, it ddnt feel like we had game plan. Koscienly tried his city heriocs a few times but his passing god awful. Instead of playing to giroud strenght amd lumping it to him then attavk the second ball we keep trying to play out defense but only to lose the ball in midfield. Our fullback could have been the catalyst monreal and bellerin got into some good positions but really failed themselves awfully.

 

[samshere]

We will always struggle against balls behind the defense line as long as we have Mertesacker and Flamini in the team. There's no drastic rethink of tactics needed. I suspect if we had got the first goal the game would have turned differently.
Their first goal was a long range effort, second should have been ruled out, third shouldn't have been a corner and fourth after we'd given up mentally. All this with half our team injured and the same team playing almost every game for the last month. Shouldn't base anything on this result.

 

[Rimaal]

I doubt any post I'd make in this thread today would be objective. Right now the only words running through my mind are "crap" and cruder synonyms of "crap"

I'll come back after Monday's match, maybe I'll be a be more balanced in my view then. Or at the very least more eloquent.

 

[MutableEarth]

Here is my main issue - the balance between flexibility and stability dictated by our personnel. It's all well and good citing injuries, and I accept that most teams will have injuries every season anyway, albeit we get them at a disproportionately high rate.

However, our squad - as potential title-chasers - should do one of 2 things:

- Have enough flexibility and different, available options that can potentially offer an alternative strategy to approach matches with

or

- Have options that do not disrupt the main dynamic of the team so that we do not lose large chunks of vital elements needed for our team to play their game competently.

My issue is that our squad members/back-ups in key areas do neither of these things at the moment, and that's the single biggest problem we face tactically. We have managed to get away with it of late with some good, professional performances that I found impressive in parts, but a result like yesterday was surely coming round the corner and a lot of us missed the signs.

 

[sggooner97]

copy and pasted from my original post: The reason why we lost to Southampton, how to prevent further losses, and how Wenger knows how to prevent such losses but refuses to do it.

1. 
   
2. We lost to Southampton, or rather, we got dominated by Soton, simply because they nullified us tactically. Not because of mentality.
   
   Once every few league games, there comes a manager, who knows to beat Arsenal you just have to set up your team in a very specific way to counter our team. In this case, Koeman was probably licking his lips: he knew that Arsenal under Wenger are extremely easy to beat if his team plays the right way.
   
   Having this knowledge, Koeman set up his team as follows:
   
   1.defensive set up to beat us:
   
   A.50% pressing. the whole Soton team thus sat back behind the halfway line, and pressed aggressively whenever we entered their half.
   As a result, our attack got absolutely pwned.
   
   B. Man mark Özil. Teams who want to stop us from attacking man mark Özil, and as a result the attack just stops flowing.
   
   C. Dominate physically. Wanyama and the other guy physically destroyed our players.
   
   As a result, it's simple: any manager who implements tactics A, B and C when defending against us can easily neutralize our attack.
   
   2. attacking set up to beat us: park the bus then counter with long balls.
   
   A. Long ball to strikers over the midfield.
   
   Koeman told his players to whack long balls to Long and the other striker to attack. As a result, our midfield was bypassed.
   
   BY using this tactic: they soak up pressure then counter, exposing our defense.
   
   hence, what would a team using this anti-wenger tactic need? lets break it down:
   
   1. a disciplined team willing to sit back and press
   2. physical midfielders that are big, strong and aggressive: Wanyama and clasie.
   3. hardworkers strikers that, the moment their team win the ball, bust their ass upfield to run for a long ball: Long and Mane.
   
   Last edited: 16 minutes ago
   sggooner97, 21 minutes agoEditDeleteReport
   #70Reply
   SA Gunner likes this.
3. 
   sggooner97New Member
   part 2:
   
   Wenger's inability to deal with managers who tactically beat us: his tactical inflexibility
   
   As evidenced by the 4-0, the 6-1 (Jose) and several others, we thus deduce that the moment a manager setups his team in the way I mentioned above lets call it the anti Wenger tactic), we have a very high chance of losing.
   
   Managers like Koeman and Jose clearly have Wenger in their back pockets, tactically speaking.
   
   Hence, Wenger's inability to change, to adapt to these tactics is exposed, and is one of his key weaknesses and why I still would like Wenger to resign after this season.
   
   Last edited: 6 minutes ago
   sggooner97, 18 minutes agoEditDeleteReport
   #71Reply
   
   
4. 
   sggooner97New Member
   part 3:
   
   solutions to nullify the anti wenger tactic:
   
   it's actually very simple.
   
   Arsenal have to play counterattack. Soak up their pressure and hit them on the counter. That means several things:
   
   1.,Arsenal have to sit back in their own half and absorb rather than press upfield. It's silly that WEnger lets his players press so high up. To me, this tactic makes no sense.
   
   2. Giroud cannot play striker. Walcott has to. This is fairly self-explanatory..
   
   sggooner97, 14 minutes agoEditDeleteReport
   #72Reply
   
   
5. 
   sggooner97New Member
   part 4:
   
   a weak spine.
   
   Having explained how managers nullify Wenger tactically, and provided the solution (just bloody play theo, bench giroud and play counterattack)
   , another issue is the weak spine.
   
   Flamini, Giroud, and Mertesacker are too weak to be our spine. This could be seen as a result of Wengers faith in players and refusal to bring in replacements.
   
   For example: Giroud should never have been our starting striker for so damned long. Ironically, I started supporting Arsenal at the end of 11/12 and at the start of 12/13, hence... sadly I have known only an Arsenal defined by Giroud.
   
   Flamini should never have been playing in the first place.. A proper DM would help alot. Having said this, El Ninny might help with replacing Flamini.
   
   Mertesacker should be benched by Gabriel.
   
   sggooner97, 10 minutes agoEditDeleteReport
   #73Reply
   
   
6. 
   sggooner97New Member
   part 5: summary
   
   Hence, if we put it all together,
   
   Arsenal can be easily nullified if managers set up their team to sit deep, press hard and play counter with long balls.
   
   Wenger's inability to beat this tactic, and showing us that he repeatedly gets rekt by it several times a season, is one of his main weaknesses.
   
   I also disagree that we lose due to mentality. Honestly, to me, this weak mentality thing is not the true reason for why we lose like this. It's a tactical loss.
   
   

 

[Rain Dance]

First of all use the quote function, not copy and paste ...

2nd. We actually had the ability to nullify Koeman's tactic. Similar anti-Wenger tactic as you described above has been used by Toothnumb, Leicester, Villa and many other teams. We weren't as gung-ho as last season.
3rd. Giroud is actually one of the tactic to dismantle team sitting back and counter as we usually switched to set-piece and long ball tactic, which of course, is dreadful to the "beautiful" Arsenal way. Walcott on the other hand is crucial when we switched to counter attacking WHICH we usually use against bigger teams.
We all know had Giroud be more clinical when it mattered, like vs Toothnumb, we would have appreciate him more (as said by GDeep and Hydro - 2 of the biggest critics)
4th. Giroud and Flamini aren't our spine. Theo is our first choice striker and Coquelin is our first choice DM, don't raise their status because you want to bash them. They are playing because the first choice is out (Walcott is back, I know)
5th. Your idea of doing full counter attack is ****, many teams know how to handle this tactic and outright refused to attack and rather take a 0-0 than risk a loss. Small teams never want to attack us, this has been the same for over a decade.
6th. our mentality does have an issue and it is not a nonsense. Arsenal does look down on its opponents and usually need a wake up call. There is no doubt we usually need a wake up call whenever we play a smaller team

remember, this game happened before. http://www.arsenal.com/match/report/1213/post/first-team/capital-one-cup-reading-5-7-arsenal-report
4-0 before half time.
5-1 vs Pool and 6-1 vs Chelsea were also shellsock outcomes with plenty of goals coming in the beginning of the match

 

[Rain Dance]

double post

 

[Bould14]

We struggled at Southampton because of their high intense press. I doubt with Santi in the side we would have struggled so much to circulate the ball. He can hold the ball against those types of teams.

Ramsey/Flamini useless in that regard.

 

[HollandGooner]

Its a fact that we missed Cazorla as much in the game against Southampton, but after all the attitude and the peformance was as bad as it could be.

 

[SA Gunner]

Looking at the Bournemouth performance, and their tactical display specifically, I would conclude that they probably got it wrong on the day.

Gave us far too much space to get into our rhythm, and in addition sat off us a little too much respect.

Was it a little too late to adjust their tactics after seeing the Southampton hammering? If I were in the stands or in front of the tv watching that, I would be implementing something to that effect immediately.

 

[Aevi]

Looking at the Bournemouth performance, and their tactical display specifically, I would conclude that they probably got it wrong on the day.

Gave us far too much space to get into our rhythm, and in addition sat off us a little too much respect.

Was it a little too late to adjust their tactics after seeing the Southampton hammering? If I were in the stands or in front of the tv watching that, I would be implementing something to that effect immediately.

I think they did, but their pressing, which Southampton likely practiced, was raw and unorganized. They tried to attack the ball to give us little space, but did it wrong and ended up giving us far too much space in other areas.