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They are called Referees

Are you for VAR or not?


  • Total voters
    130

Sniper Mik

Not a Closet Sp**s Fan
What if there's a contentious decision on one end of the pitch, and VAR isn't immediately called because the ball doesn't go out of play, and the team counters and there's another contentious decision at the other end? What do the officials do in that case?
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
Arsenal supporters have got be crazy not to want VAR. It was whole new experience watching the Chelsea match not wondering what **** up's around the corner.

The penalty decisions in Arsenal's recent matches have been nothing short of scandalous. We've been robbed of 5 points in the league at least. And it's all very well Mike Dean apologising after the game, but you can't get those points back.

Mike Dean has awarded Arsenal a third of the penalties he's award on average to other clubs. This has got to stop.

Arsenal for Justice, VAR in any form is better than nothing. The short wait adds a bit of tension.
 

Toby

No longer a Stuttgart Fan
Moderator
What if there's a contentious decision on one end of the pitch, and VAR isn't immediately called because the ball doesn't go out of play, and the team counters and there's another contentious decision at the other end? What do the officials do in that case?

Had something like that case in the Bundesliga. I don't remember which game it was, but it went like this:
Team A had the ball and a player of theirs was fouled in the middle of the pitch, ref let play on, VAR didn't come in right away. Team B now had the ball and countered, got into A's box where a player was fouled. Team B now was awarded a penalty. Now the VAR got in, canceled the penalty decision and basically rewinded the whole game back to the foul committed by B which allowed them to start their counter in the first place.
Seems kinda right in hindsight, but seeing it live on TV it was all a bit bonkers...the ref and VAR not seeing the first foul, game goes on for minutes, then another foul happens and suddenly the game is rewinded

I dont see the connection between the two incidents. One decision was made without VAR, and the was. Both incidents were different in a number of ways too. At the end of the day, it's still human eyes and brains that make the final call. I can't see where it can or has to improve. I think it worked as good as anyone could have hoped!

That's the whole problem to me. Why does the VAR come in in one case, and not in the other? What's the rule on that? If the rules on VAR are as unclear as all the other rules, and there's still a faulty human being behind the monitor, the whole things doesn't make a lot of sense, because there's still the same seeming arbitrariness regarding decisions as without VAR.

Concerning what I wrote earlier, in that I think the problem of bad refereeing lies with FAs, ref associations and individuals, I remembered that not too long ago german ref Manuel Gräfe came forward highlighting some shady things going on behind the scenes of the german ref association:

- refs weren't chosen on merit, quality and performance
- they were however chosen on personal sympathy, favours and deference to authority
- Felix Zwayer, a ref massively entangled in the 2005 Bundesliga betting scandal around ref Robert Hoyzer, has still climbed to the top of german refereeing

No matter how ridiculously wrong some VAR decisions were, the german ref boss Hellmut Krug always defended his boys, instead of acknowledging a problem. Until he was recently fired after being under suspicion of rigging games through VAR...

And that right there is why VAR doesn't work, because it's not just about the technology but about rules and humans. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for VAR. But I don't think it's the solution to the overall problem of bad refereeing in football in the last couple of years.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
Had something like that case in the Bundesliga. I don't remember which game it was, but it went like this:
Team A had the ball and a player of theirs was fouled in the middle of the pitch, ref let play on, VAR didn't come in right away. Team B now had the ball and countered, got into A's box where a player was fouled. Team B now was awarded a penalty. Now the VAR got in, canceled the penalty decision and basically rewinded the whole game back to the foul committed by B which allowed them to start their counter in the first place.
Seems kinda right in hindsight, but seeing it live on TV it was all a bit bonkers...the ref and VAR not seeing the first foul, game goes on for minutes, then another foul happens and suddenly the game is rewinded



That's the whole problem to me. Why does the VAR come in in one case, and not in the other? What's the rule on that? If the rules on VAR are as unclear as all the other rules, and there's still a faulty human being behind the monitor, the whole things doesn't make a lot of sense, because there's still the same seeming arbitrariness regarding decisions as without VAR.

Concerning what I wrote earlier, in that I think the problem of bad refereeing lies with FAs, ref associations and individuals, I remembered that not too long ago german ref Manuel Gräfe came forward highlighting some shady things going on behind the scenes of the german ref association:

- refs weren't chosen on merit, quality and performance
- they were however chosen on personal sympathy, favours and deference to authority
- Felix Zwayer, a ref massively entangled in the 2005 Bundesliga betting scandal around ref Robert Hoyzer, has still climbed to the top of german refereeing

No matter how ridiculously wrong some VAR decisions were, the german ref boss Hellmut Krug always defended his boys, instead of acknowledging a problem. Until he was recently fired after being under suspicion of rigging games through VAR...

And that right there is why VAR doesn't work, because it's not just about the technology but about rules and humans. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for VAR. But I don't think it's the solution to the overall problem of bad refereeing in football in the last couple of years.
Don't think anybody would say VAR was perfect. But is it much better than the current fiasco . . hell, yes.
 
Last edited:

Mark Tobias

Mr. Agreeable
Had something like that case in the Bundesliga. I don't remember which game it was, but it went like this:
Team A had the ball and a player of theirs was fouled in the middle of the pitch, ref let play on, VAR didn't come in right away. Team B now had the ball and countered, got into A's box where a player was fouled. Team B now was awarded a penalty. Now the VAR got in, canceled the penalty decision and basically rewinded the whole game back to the foul committed by B which allowed them to start their counter in the first place.
Seems kinda right in hindsight, but seeing it live on TV it was all a bit bonkers...the ref and VAR not seeing the first foul, game goes on for minutes, then another foul happens and suddenly the game is rewinded
Okay so for me, this sounds a lot like watching rugby and the way in which the advantage rule is played. The game can seemingly go on and be brought back (rewinded as you put it).
Sorry to make a daft connection like that. I know they are two different sports with completely different challenges concerning VAR. It does however seem that if this comes in then an evolution of how we perceive the game may need to change.
 

IslingtonBornandbred

Active Member
They need to figure how it's going to work best and smoothest without ruining the spectacle and pace of game. Here's some qualified English referee's opinions on how it was used the other night:

The game was stopped and Atkinson was listening to VAR for a while, presumably about a possible Chelsea penalty that had just occurred.

If VAR thought it was a penalty, Atkinson should have:
a) taken the advice
b) reviewed the incident pitch-side

The game was stopped and they talked... then nothing happened?

If VAR didn't think it was a penalty - they shouldn't have been talking.



If they iron it out, it will be a good system. It doesn't even seem that complicated, they're just getting used to it I suppose. The theory behind it is fine they just need to cut out minutes of talking with no outcome like in this game, that's what ruins it. VAR should look at a call and say either "Ref I think it was a penalty, you should take a look" or nothing at all. What's hard about that?

Josh it can get complicated. Lets say seconds before that possible penalty that wasn't given (which is possibly not a penalty) there was an offside that was missed by AR. What do you do then?

The protocol is a 67 page document. IMO there are more problems with implementing it when it gets complicated than there are with the protocol itself.


Obviously it's not *that* simple but it certainly looked like they were making it more complicated than they needed to.

In that case, the penalty would be looked at by the VAR and they would also look at anything that could have happened in the attacking phase of play that led to the penalty. Offside would be spotted and it would be brought back for offside as it occurred before the penalty incident (if it was a penalty). If they decided it wasn't a pen, would they bring it back? Not so sure...

It's the dialogue I'm saying needs to be simplistic, Atkinson had a couple of lengthy conversations - there's no need.

But this is the problem, to go all the way back to any potential offside I expect you're talking about 30-60 seconds of play that needs to be reviewed from multiple angles, with perhaps certain sections of it also viewed in slow-mo. I can easily see how that adds up to 3 minutes - and if the VAR then goes on to decide he's not sure and would like the ref to take another look, that could easily become 5. A huge chunk of which would have basically nothing happening as far as the fans in the stadium are concerned, and nothing for them to look at or watch, as big-screen replays of the relevant decision aren't allowed (as they are in rugby, cricket, NFL etc)

As I've said before, I'm a big fan of the concept of VAR, but I think the system they've come up with is an awful implementation of it.
 

Toby

No longer a Stuttgart Fan
Moderator
VAR wasn't being used in 2-2 draw with Chelsea the other day.

Alright, that got lost on me. But the question still stands, as I feel it is unclear when, how and who decides when to use VAR and when not.

Maybe it should either be completely in the hands of the on field ref to decide when he wants to review footage and when not.
Or the VAR should function like a second, independent ref with veto rights, simultaneously to the on field ref team reviewing all situations. Then broadcast the discussions, so fans can actually comprehend and follow what's going on, thus seeing the worth of the VAR and making it all more transparent and clear.

It does however seem that if this comes in then an evolution of how we perceive the game may need to change.

It feels off when something like that happens, but I'm absolutely okay with "rewinds" or longer pauses and losing a little momentum, if it helps getting the refeering right and more coherent.
You don't even have to stop games on field for the VAR to still review a situation like a quick free kick or corner - if the decision was wrong it's okay to "rewind" the game, at least for me.

But is it a much better than the current fiasco . . hell, yes.

Not in the Bundesliga. There's still the same amount of wrong decisions and mistakes, VAR has just made it more complicated. The host of still wrong decisions and the uncertainty and non-transparency on how it works has turned people against VAR, because it doesn't help the bad refereeing and warps the game's pace.

The best or most clear decisions came along when the VAR came in, the ref paused the game, went and had a look himself at the sideline, then made his decision. But that approach still doesn't clarify when the VAR actually comes in and what his competences are.
 

YeahBee

Terrible hot takes
It is a bit shallow that they introduce this now anyway

there is a problem with refeering but instead of the VAR issue I see the climate of so much else as more troubeling

frekkin asshole players crowding the ref, diving and overplaying contact and stupid reckless tackles to.

there are good refs in England, problem is that they are refing rugby

Just frekkin gather all managers and captains before the season starts, LAY DOWN THE LAW, Dredd STYLE!

clean up the sport, shouldn't cost a dime

if brutes who run headfirst into each other can manage why can't football players?
 

YeahBee

Terrible hot takes
I played football and handball
I am not innocent:
broken rules deliberatly, chewed refs out etc etc


I still see some guys from other surrounding teams as rivals, would never let a kid of mine play in one of those teams.
and yet I have also been involved in martial arts, the atmosphere is so totally different, even when we choke each other, kick n punch each other in the head there is respect and friendly atmosphere amongst rivals, no *****ing about refeering or appelled ref calls or even points.

it is common to just go to other clubs and train, unheard of in team sports from my experience.
 

Jury

A-M's drunk uncle
Alright, that got lost on me. But the question still stands, as I feel it is unclear when, how and who decides when to use VAR and when not.

Maybe it should either be completely in the hands of the on field ref to decide when he wants to review footage and when not.
In England, it is. It's solely down to the ref. If he's happy that either nothing happened or he made the correct decision, it goes no further.
 

Jury

A-M's drunk uncle
It's not perfect yet, but we have to feel our way along; see what works best in certain scenarios and what doesn't.

It's already better and it can only improve. It's a step in the right direction.
 

Toby

No longer a Stuttgart Fan
Moderator
In England, it is. It's solely down to the ref. If he's happy that either nothing happened or he made the correct decision, it goes no further.

That's a lot better than in Germany. The video ref can come in whenever he wants, or not, or be called upon, or not. Final decision is with the on field ref, but it's been pretty clear that when the video ref comes in, a lot of refs feel pressured into changing their decision - for better or worse.
 

Jury

A-M's drunk uncle
That's a lot better than in Germany. The video ref can come in whenever he wants, or not, or be called upon, or not. Final decision is with the on field ref, but it's been pretty clear that when the video ref comes in, a lot of refs feel pressured into changing their decision - for better or worse.
Tbh, I'd prefer a panel reviewing all potentially crunch decisions with the ability to alert the ref asap if he made a fault. They'd have to move quickly to make that work, but it's something to work towards. The whole point of this, that we're seeking to get the potentially game changing decisions correct as often as possible, must not be lost under all the these teething issues and quibbles.
 

Toby

No longer a Stuttgart Fan
Moderator
Tbh, I'd prefer a panel reviewing all potentially crunch decisions with the ability to alert the ref if he made a fauklt.

That's definitely the way to go. A panel reviewing basically any situation and quickly alerting the ref when he called something wrong under the guidance of an overhauled, clear set of rules.
 
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