Arsenal Finances

[Makingtrax]

Emery inherited the contract situation. And in fairness once Raul etc came on board how many new deals did we actually announce. Everyone from Elneny to Nelson signed new deals.

Whether it was Wenger and Gazidis, Wenger or Gazidis under both their watch we allowed assets to run their contracts down. Nasri, Clichy, Sagna, RVP, Cazorla, Mertesacker, Wilshere I could go on and on. It was chronic mis management to allow that to occur. The new guys have come in and improved the position overall. They've spoken about how it has impacted us and how ideally you get a player with 2 years left you either get a new deal or sell.

So that's not a criticism of Emery or the new staff. What we've seen is an improvement in terms of getting people nailed down. But all they've done is fire fight on that regard due to the legacy issues they inherited.

I'm not concerned about loaning players. It's not ideal but at least it's a degree of honesty and transparency that wasn't there before. People use to say Wenger provided cover for the board to penny pitch. Clearly Emery isn't doing that.

There are plenty of improvements in a short period. But getting through the legacy that's been left over will take time.

OK let’s see.

If I’m right and the problem has been with the owner, and in particular, funding not matching the aspirations of fans, then Emery, who seems to be a good manager, will do no better than Wenger . . top 4 mostly and some cups, maybe FA or a Europa. Or possibly worse.

If the problem lay with Wenger as most fans seemed to think at one time, then Emery should not be held back by Kroenke, and should be at the races soon, latter stages of Champions League and be challenging for the league title.

It’s quite simple really.

 

[Makingtrax]

I am making no such comparisons. In fact, I'm baffled by those who say things have got better when there is really nothing to compare with so far.

But I'm also baffled by the arbitrary apportionment of blame. So if you discuss a manager's legacy you have to put the good and the bad in the balance. As far as Emery is concerned it is impossible to judge how well he has done because he hasn't been in the job long enough.

I still think any analysis has to be fair, because if it isn't it is biased and therefore useless in analytical terms.

People saying things are getting better are having a laugh. Things are pretty much the same. And that’s no reflection on Emery, I’m still impressed with him so far.

 

[Mo Britain]

People saying things are getting better are having a laugh. Things are pretty much the same. And that’s no reflection on Emery, I’m still impressed with him so far.

Quite. I like the cut of Emery's jib but changing managers is the kind of window-dressing which happens regularly at unsuccessful clubs to give the semblance of progress.

In our case since Wenger had been in the job so long then change was bound to happen, many would say overdue. But changing managers doesn't guarantee success unless the other factors holding back the club also change and, in our case, that means until either Kronke sells or he suffers a Damascene conversion.

 

[bingobob]

OK let’s see.

If I’m right and the problem has been with the owner, and in particular, funding not matching the aspirations of fans, then Emery, who seems to be a good manager, will do no better than Wenger . . top 4 mostly and some cups, maybe FA or a Europa. Or possibly worse.

If the problem lay with Wenger as most fans seemed to think at one time, then Emery should not be held back by Kroenke, and should be at the races soon, latter stages of Champions League and be challenging for the league title.

It’s quite simple really.

Yes and no.

Wenger spent relative to what he had previously vast sums in his latter years. It is not Kronkes fault that most of those buys were poor.

Emery on the other hand is dealing with that legacy. The legacy of average players that he needs to work with improve or move on. It's not as simple to say because Emery is a "better" manager we should be winning. We should certainly be improving and in areas we are. But it's a process to move under performing guys out and bring in new guys. That will be a proper litmus test.

Was Wenger in his latter years buying poorly or was he buying from a poor market. If Emery has the same issues than it would seem the market we are buying from is wrong. My gut, based on what we've done so far, is in thr past the players were there we've just bought the wrong ones.

 

[Dj_sds -]

That’s a big assumption. And I still believe it was all overplayed by those creating the narrative of ‘big bad Wenger out’, the man in charge of absolutely everything from transfers to the tea drunk in the canteen.

Gazidis bought Stat DNA from the US and convinced Wenger and the board that it would enhance us, even though it identified Gabriel as decent CB. Gazidis was chief executive and officially in charge of financial matters. Gazidis ran the transfer team and was in charge of wages.

Yes Emery’s come but nothing’s changed. He’s yet another good manager . . but we’re still talking about loan players again, still spending 5th, still letting people run down contracts, still paying too much on wages, still struggling with a woeful defence and still 5th in the league.

Until there’s real investment, Emery will have the same problems as Wenger. And the same criticisms . . it’s starting already in the Unai thread.

Out of curiosity, do you think wenger has done anything wrong during his time here? Or is it all gazidis, board, kroenke, squadcost?

 

[bingobob]

I am making no such comparisons. In fact, I'm baffled by those who say things have got better when there is really nothing to compare with so far.

But I'm also baffled by the arbitrary apportionment of blame. So if you discuss a manager's legacy you have to put the good and the bad in the balance. As far as Emery is concerned it is impossible to judge how well he has done because he hasn't been in the job long enough.

I still think any analysis has to be fair, because if it isn't it is biased and therefore useless in analytical terms.

What I am saying isn't biased. What I'm saying is Emery is dealing with Wengers legacy of sinking results and average signings. That won't be turned around immediately. So we need to give him time. If we are three years down the line and are still buying poor, have players running down their contract, are not competitive domestically or in Europe then issues run beyond players and management.

My working hypothesis is that isn't the case. There has been improvement. Xhaka looks better. Mustafi at times has looked better. We looked okay when we had an established back 5. We were winning games last season we would have drew and drawing games we would have lost. Let's see is that a short term bump from a management change or something that can be channelled long term into steady improvement in the previously mentioned areas.

 

[Makingtrax]

Quite. I like the cut of Emery's jib but changing managers is the kind of window-dressing which happens regularly at unsuccessful clubs to give the semblance of progress.

In our case since Wenger had been in the job so long then change was bound to happen, many would say overdue. But changing managers doesn't guarantee success unless the other factors holding the club also change and, in our case, that means until either Kronke sells or he suffers a Damascene conversion.

Exactly. Players make a team, the manager just get’s them to perform to their ability.

And if proof we’re needed Klopp’s 2nd team looked woeful against Wolves, but when his main players are on they look fantastic.

Changing managers is all a club can do to try and give the club a bit of temporary impetus, but they always drop back to somewhere near their squad cost position eventually. Even Leicester bombed out the next season, and Burnley this season.

Wenger was never the problem as we’ll find out in the next few years, as good as Emery is.

 

[Makingtrax]

Out of curiosity, do you think wenger has done anything wrong during his time here? Or is it all gazidis, board, kroenke, squadcost?

From 2004 to 2017 Wenger performed above his squad cost position every single year. Between 2004-2012 we should have been in the bottom half of the table and 2012-2017 he should have been 5th.

Despite all the mocking and criticism he improved what the owners were putting into the club. I don’t see it any other way. Sorry.

 

[Mo Britain]

What I am saying isn't biased. What I'm saying is Emery is dealing with Wengers legacy of sinking results and average signings. That won't be turned around immediately. So we need to give him time. If we are three years down the line and are still buying poor, have players running down their contract, are not competitive domestically or in Europe then issues run beyond players and management.

My working hypothesis is that isn't the case. There has been improvement. Xhaka looks better. Mustafi at times has looked better. We looked okay when we had an established back 5. We were winning games last season we would have drew and drawing games we would have lost. Let's see is that a short term bump from a management change or something that can be channelled long term into steady improvement in the previously mentioned areas.

I fully agree Emery has to be given time but I do not share your negative view of the Wenger era and I maintain that after Emery has left - in 5,10 or 20 years - we will be able to make an assessment of who was the more successful manager for Arsenal. But the only objective way of reaching a conclusion will be to look at trophies won not at intangible generalisations.

A new man always makes changes and often they work, at least for a while, because things which aren't working require changes. So things "appear" to get better and all the players and staff will chip in and say things are getting better. As they would, because they are paid servants of the club and "the king is dead, long live the king".

Emery has a more difficult job than Wenger had in 97. He faces more competition and he has to deal with a board which is effectively a one-man show and that one-man show isn't here, by his own admission, to win trophies which, by contrast, is what we fans want.

 

[Mo Britain]

Exactly. Players make a team, the manager just get’s them to perform to their ability.

And if proof we’re needed Klopp’s 2nd team looked woeful against Wolves, but when his main players are on they look fantastic.

Changing managers is all a club can do to try and give the club a bit of temporary impetus, but they always drop back to somewhere near their squad cost position eventually. Even Leicester bombed out the next season, and Burnley this season.

Wenger was never the problem as we’ll find out in the next few years, as good as Emery is.

Leicester is a good example. Ranieri got them the title and after a string of bad results he was sacked. Shakespeare was eulogised for putting together a good run but when that fizzled out suddenly he was no longer the saviour and got sacked in turn.

Now Puel is questioned and the minute he goes on a bad run he'll be fired when the question should be how far can Leicester go with what they have? The fans get excited because they assume a new manager will usher in a new era of success but usually what you get is another stool pigeon waiting for the next turkey shoot.

 

[Dj_sds -]

From 2004 to 2017 Wenger performed above his squad cost position every single year. Between 2004-2012 we should have been in the bottom half of the table and 2012-2017 he should have been 5th.

Despite all the mocking and criticism he improved what the owners were putting into the club. I don’t see it any other way. Sorry.

Oke fair enough. I agree with you that his performance untill 2010 was good. Do you think any manager could have done a better job from 2010 onwards? We cant know for sure, i know that, but what do you think?

 

[Makingtrax]

Leicester is a good example. Ranieri got them the title and after a string of bad results he was sacked. Shakespeare was eulogised for putting together a good run but when that fizzled out suddenly he was no longer the saviour and got sacked in turn.

Now Puel is questioned and the minute he goes on a bad run he'll be fired when the question should be how far can Leicester go with what they have? The fans get excited because they assume a new manager will usher in a new era of success but usually what you get is another stool pigeon waiting for the next turkey shoot.

This pattern is repeated over and over and over. Yet many fans still can’t see how modern football works.

 

[Makingtrax]

Oke fair enough. I agree with you that his performance untill 2010 was good. Do you think any manager could have done a better job from 2010 onwards? We cant know for sure, i know that, but what do you think?

I think not being anywhere the top spenders in the league we’ll never find another manager who can deliver consistent top 4, 7 FA Cups and 3 league titles again.

Look at Sp**s spending 6th, they’ve acquired some superb cheaper players, got their team ticking over nicely, minimal injuries and a great manager . . . but they still can’t get a sniff of a trophy against the money teams.

 

[ptrcopp]

Even if it's anything? We are run on a self sustaining model. So every buy needs to be spot on. Spending 20 million on Suarez. A player who in 2 years we will be struggling to get rid of as he will be running his contract down and will have no resale value. That could prevent us from spending 50 million on a younger more talented player who could develop and double in value.

We need to distribute our wages more sensibly. You don't buy Suarez when Nelson will come back in the summer. Nelson has a chance to develop into a first team player and has a very high ceiling.

I also believe that we will use Nelson on the left and buy a left footer to play on the right.

Your hypertheticals aboit Suarez are nonsense. If he is running down his contract that’s not his fault it’s the club: firstly for not signing a new deal, secondly for not improving the squad significantly so he wants to leave.

We need players who are going to improve us, obviously. Will Saurez? Emery sees him as a winger and right now he is better than what we have. That shouldn’t hinder Nelson if he is ready next season.

We have spent less in the last few seasons than Everton; both gross and net. Their buys have almost certainly improved them. Which billionaires are pumping money into that club?

 

[The_Playmaker]

Your hypertheticals aboit Suarez are nonsense. If he is running down his contract that’s not his fault it’s the club: firstly for not signing a new deal, secondly for not improving the squad significantly so he wants to leave.

We need players who are going to improve us, obviously. Will Saurez? Emery sees him as a winger and right now he is better than what we have. That shouldn’t hinder Nelson if he is ready next season.

We have spent less in the last few seasons than Everton; both gross and net. Their buys have almost certainly improved them. Which billionaires are pumping money into that club?

Is he better than what we have? Spanish wingers don't really come to England and light it up im afraid.

He is just another body, which is what we need and should only be a loan.

 

[ptrcopp]

Is he better than what we have? Spanish wingers don't really come to England and light it up im afraid.

He is just another body, which is what we need and should only be a loan.

We can have a different discussion about whether he is good enough.

My original point was that we should be a club that spends money in the transfer market to improve. Not a club where the owner just take money out, won’t stuck any in, won’t support the manager: not a club like Newcastle.

That we CANNOT spend money on a Barce reject is evidence enough that the ambitions of those at the top doesn’t meet the ambition of the fans.

 

[ptrcopp]

Kroenke didn't have 100% ownership of us for the last few years. We don't know what kind of damage he did to us by loaning the money to buy Usmanov's shares.

We could be in another era of austerity.

We already are according to some (or most) reports

 

[Manberg]

Robbie from AFTV said the most we ever made on selling a player is all the way back in 2000 on Overmars.

Holy **** if that's true. We are ******

edit: It is according to https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-arsenal/rekordabgaenge/verein/11.

And those figures are in Euros.

That's depressing. We're so badly run.

 

[Makingtrax]

Robbie from AFTV said the most we ever made on selling a player is all the way back in 2000 on Overmars.

Holy **** if that's true. We are ******

edit: It is according to https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-arsenal/rekordabgaenge/verein/11.

And those figures are in Euros.

That's depressing. We're so badly run.

That’s terrible

 

[Makingtrax]

Your hypertheticals aboit Suarez are nonsense. If he is running down his contract that’s not his fault it’s the club: firstly for not signing a new deal, secondly for not improving the squad significantly so he wants to leave.

We need players who are going to improve us, obviously. Will Saurez? Emery sees him as a winger and right now he is better than what we have. That shouldn’t hinder Nelson if he is ready next season.

We have spent less in the last few seasons than Everton; both gross and net. Their buys have almost certainly improved them. Which billionaires are pumping money into that club?

It takes a few seasons to build a squad but they are catching us fast.

CIES squad cost figures 2018/19
Arsenal €428m
Everton €385m