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UEFA Champions League 2018/19

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Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
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Player:Saliba
Kloppo got a Dortmund team starting Kuba and Kevin Großkreutz into a CL final in 2013.

That "Klopp is only successfull because he bought Becker and van Dijk" is a far too simple look at it. By far doesn't explain all of it 'cause it takes out all other factors. Yes, money and thus the ability to bring in very good players helps, but even then it starts with who you actually bring in: Who of the 70m rated CBs fits exactly what you need? And that right there is already where it's a question beyond money and more a question of quality of the manager, scouting and further backroom staff. United and PSG are very good examples of what happens when money is regarded as the only deciding factor.
Klopp is a very good motivational manager. But it doesn’t matter how good you are if you haven’t got the players to back it up.

In the Prem Klopp came, 8th 4th and 4th and we saw the same problems that Arsenal had under Wenger, he would press and attack with fluidity, but as soon as the lower teams countered, his defence made mistakes and shipped goals. His team was scoring 70 or 80 + goals a season but he was shipping 40+ on average.

Suddenly he improves the team by buying top quality defenders and he can trust them not to make mistakes. So this season he’s back to scoring 80+, but here’s the point, they’ve only let in 22 goals . . . a massive difference half the previous two seasons. And now he’s challenging for the title, playing the same swashbuckling style.
 

Toby

No longer a Stuttgart Fan
Moderator
Suddenly he improves the team by buying top quality defenders and he can trust them not to make mistakes. So this season he’s back to scoring 80+, but here’s the point, they’ve only let in 22 goals . . . a massive difference half the previous two seasons. And now he’s challenging for the title, playing the same swashbuckling style.

As I said, of course high quality players like van Dijk and Becker do make a difference, that's one of simplest facts in football - better players are better.

You do omit two things, though:
First, as I said, one of the tricks is knowing who to spend your money on. There are various good, high priced players out there. It's not just the manager who decides on this, but various executives and scouts, but it should be absolutely clear you can't just throw money at random high quality expensive players and just expect them to function devoid of having included any other factors in your process of signing them. That's what United do and look how that works. Any player, no matter if they cost 5m or 80m can be a hit or a flop. Money alone doesn't explain everything.

And second, you also omit that Klopp did change his tactics this season. A better CB and GK he trusts more might be a factor in why he did it, but he also could've done it last season already and they would've probably shipped less goals. This season Liverpool is far more balanced and level headed than last, they can even sit back and suck up pressure like they did last night, something that was unthinkable with them last season.

So, yes, it's nice to have so much money you can spent 70m on one player alone and it gives you a big advantage, but you overestimate the factor "money" and underestimate everything that goes into chosing on who exactly to spend on and then building a unit out of that.
 

GeorgiaGunner

#FreeClaude
Klopp struggled until he got VVD and Alisson etc.

Klopp and Pep both had the advantage to be able to buy the players they wanted to suit their style of play.

They’d be banging their head against the wall watching Mustafi, Iwobi, Kola etc. and doing no better than Emery or Wenger.
Klopp just beat Barca 4-0, starting Origi and Shaqiri up top, with Henderson and Milner as part of his midfield 3.

Agreed he's got a (much) better squad, but I think it's fair to hold the opinion that he'd do incrementally better with our dross. He's a top, top manager. Emery is a tier or two down.
 

Mohamed7

Well-Known Member
Kloppo got a Dortmund team starting Kuba and Kevin Großkreutz into a CL final in 2013.

That "Klopp is only successfull because he bought Becker and van Dijk" is a far too simple look at it. By far doesn't explain all of it 'cause it takes out all other factors. Yes, money and thus the ability to bring in very good players helps, but even then it starts with who you actually bring in: Who of the 70m rated CBs fits exactly what you need? And that right there is already where it's a question beyond money and more a question of quality of the manager, scouting and further backroom staff. United and PSG are very good examples of what happens when money is regarded as the only deciding factor.

This is where Klopp gets a huge credit and why he has taken Liverpool to another level. He knows his tactics, he knows which players fit that, and he has utilized the money very efficiently.

Beyond the two clubs you mentioned as an example, you could use the money from Saurez as direct example. They used a huge junk of it with Benteke, a poor man's Andy Carrol.

As far as Unai Emery is concerned, the jury is still out there. Let's give him more time.
 

Mo Britain

Doom Monger
Yh but they havent made any real difference have they?
Every player can only contribute so much. Leno has turned out to be a decent replacement for Cech, Sokratis is one of two reliable centre-backs we have, Torreira has had some very good games full of energy and winning balls and Guendouzi has faded but has great promise.
 

Toby

No longer a Stuttgart Fan
Moderator
This is where Klopp gets a huge credit and why he has taken Liverpool to another level. He knows his tactics, he knows which players fit that, and he has utilized the money very efficiently.

It's not just Klopp, though. Fenway has over 5 years focused in on what they want LFC to be. Went from Hodgson and Dalglish to Rodgers and now Klopp. They had office and executive turnarounds, going from Damien Comolli to the Transfer Comittee to Michael Edwards. They've developed this club and slowly focused in on a certain direction and now are clear about their identity. That's how they play, how they handle their business, what managers they get, what players the sign. Arsenal is just at the beginning of such a development.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
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Country: England

Player:Saliba
Any player, no matter if they cost 5m or 80m can be a hit or a flop. Money alone doesn't explain everything.
That’s very true of course.

But this is about the odds. The more highly valued a player the more likely they are to turn out to do what the manager wants. That’s why money counts.

I haven’t noticed his tactics change, he’s still very much into the high press in most of the games I’ve seen, home or away, but I don’t profess to be an expert on the nuances he may have introduced.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
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Player:Saliba
Klopp just beat Barca 4-0, starting Origi and Shaqiri up top, with Henderson and Milner as part of his midfield 3.

Agreed he's got a (much) better squad, but I think it's fair to hold the opinion that he'd do incrementally better with our dross. He's a top, top manager. Emery is a tier or two down.
He seems to be a very motivational manager. Whether or not he’s better than Emery can never be tested unfortunately.
 

Ceballinhos

Cheating on Santi
Klopp just beat Barca 4-0, starting Origi and Shaqiri up top, with Henderson and Milner as part of his midfield 3.

Agreed he's got a (much) better squad, but I think it's fair to hold the opinion that he'd do incrementally better with our dross. He's a top, top manager. Emery is a tier or two down.

Over the span of 2 games he can do it because he's a great motivational manager.

But for a season long I don't think so.
Let's not forget his first season at Liverpool where he's finished 8th. He was great at getting a very good game against the best sides of the league but they lost so many points against smaller teams.
Even last season they've lost too many points against lesser teams but almost always showed up against the best ones.

Tbf we're in a similar situation right now. Our best games came against the best team we've faced (Napoli home & away, Chelsea, Tottenham...) but we've been mediocre against lesser teams.
Liverpool had a great run in Europa League and we are too so far (finger crossed).

Emery is a tier or two down as you've said, no questions about it.

But I'm not so sure Klopp would do much better with the same squad. I think we would have a similar season.
 

GeorgiaGunner

#FreeClaude
He seems to be a very motivational manager. Whether or not he’s better than Emery can never be tested unfortunately.
There can be no perfectly controlled study, but one can make educated guesses. Would you need to give Steve McClaren 2 decades at the helm of Arsenal before you could conclude with reasonable certainty that Wenger was a superior boss?
 

Sapient Hawk

Can You Smell What The Hawk Is Cooking?
Trusted ⭐

Country: Saudi Arabia
As the match gets closer I feel sick to my stomach feeling these scumbags might progress.

If it were Barca they were facing I wouldn't give them a chance but against Liverpool they might.
 

GeorgiaGunner

#FreeClaude
Over the span of 2 games he can do it because he's a great motivational manager.

But for a season long I don't think so.
Let's not forget his first season at Liverpool where he's finished 8th. He was great at getting a very good game against the best sides of the league but they lost so many points against smaller teams.
Even last season they've lost too many points against lesser teams but almost always showed up against the best ones.

Tbf we're in a similar situation right now. Our best games came against the best team we've faced (Napoli home & away, Chelsea, Tottenham...) but we've been mediocre against lesser teams.
Liverpool had a great run in Europa League and we are too so far (finger crossed).

Emery is a tier or two down as you've said, no questions about it.

But I'm not so sure Klopp would do much better with the same squad. I think we would have a similar season.

"For [this] season long" (Klopp's 4th at the club) Liverpool will likely post the third-highest PL points total of all time, so I disagree with the contention that it's not sustainable.

As for his first, partial season, Ferguson had a pair of 11th place finishes in the 80s and we know how that turned out. Current (and what looks to be momentum for future) results are most relevant.
 

Slartibartfast

CIES Loyalist
As the match gets closer I feel sick to my stomach feeling these scumbags might progress.

If it were Barca they were facing I wouldn't give them a chance but against Liverpool they might.

I won't even watch. Just can't bring myself to watch ****spur in a Champions League semifinal. And I had been really looking forward to seeing more of Ajax as the competition progressed. But I can't. I just can't. If Sp**s scored some fluky late goal to get through it would rip my heart out.
 
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