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Raul's Transfer Targets: Summer 2019

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Who would you rather have?


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benjamin86

Established Member
I think that these cooperations or feeder teams just don't work out (as easily) as we tend to think. The theory is easy: Form this sort of cooperation and club A can send its top talents to club B, who are happy to get some of them. But I think the reality and practicality of that is way more difficult.

It is harder to incorporate talent instead of proven quality, for big clubs and smaller clubs, as the first thing you look at is current performance. The only "easy" situation to do it is if you're in kind of no man's land. Teams in the middle of the table neither in punching distance of international spots and at the same time not in danger of relegation are the most likely to incorporate talent, as it's just the lowest risk situation for tempering with current performance in favour of giving game time to youngsters.

Even if e.g. Girona belong to the same onwners as City, there's surely very little interest in risking them playing in the 1st or 2nd division just so they will field more youngsters they loaned out from the parent club.

Young players need a working environment, at club, squad and performance level to grow. Very, very few youngsters come in and pull a relegation battling side up a few levels. A very good example is Timo Werner, you came into the fold of Stuttgart's first team as a massive talent, but was almost instantly tasked and burdened with the hopes of scoring the team out of the relegation zone. That's a massive burden for an 18 year old player and realistically something he has very little chance of succeeding in, considering most young players struggle with consistency - which is absolutely ok. They need a working architecture around them to flourish.
Our example Werner crumbled under that burden, left Stuttgart after they got relegated for Leipzig and instantly exploded in the vastly more settled environment of Red Bull.

So even if a smaller club is owned by the same people as a bigger club, it's in no one's interest to hazard that smaller club's performance and status by making them play 5 loaned out parent club youngsters. At the most you could probably have 3 at them at your disposal and work on properly incorporating them and giving them ample game time, but mostly it's even less, I'd tend to think.

You'd also have to completely align the two club's philosophies in terms of recruiting, development, manager choice, etc.

I think it's testament to the questionable nature of cooperations and feeder clubs that the only example of this working out more than it does not is the Red Bull franchise, which's standout feature is that all of the clubs in it are run by Rangnick and Mintzlaff, but at the same time are still kind of run as separate entities - testament to this being that players aren't mostly loaned out from Leipzig to Salzburg, but that Salzburg buys them and if they are ready for the next step it will be tried (mostly successfully) to keep them in the franchise, they will be sold on to big sister Leipzig. You should also keep in mind that these clubs are so entangled that their academies are basically one academy feeding both clubs. This kind of setup is a very longterm process and it's not surprising very few of these cooperations besides the very thought out, planned out Red Bull franchise work out.

I suppose New York would make more sense than Girona as there's no relegation? But yeah you're probably right in it being much more difficult than i considered.

I'm interested to see how the Udinese and Watford relationship evolves, if it will eventually end up something similar to Red Bull or continue as is with Watford getting the fruits of the Pozzo scouting network to air in the premiership shop window and sending their lesser players to Udinese.
 

benjamin86

Established Member
I think that these cooperations or feeder teams just don't work out (as easily) as we tend to think. The theory is easy: Form this sort of cooperation and club A can send its top talents to club B, who are happy to get some of them. But I think the reality and practicality of that is way more difficult.

It is harder to incorporate talent instead of proven quality, for big clubs and smaller clubs, as the first thing you look at is current performance. The only "easy" situation to do it is if you're in kind of no man's land. Teams in the middle of the table neither in punching distance of international spots and at the same time not in danger of relegation are the most likely to incorporate talent, as it's just the lowest risk situation for tempering with current performance in favour of giving game time to youngsters.

Even if e.g. Girona belong to the same onwners as City, there's surely very little interest in risking them playing in the 1st or 2nd division just so they will field more youngsters they loaned out from the parent club.

Young players need a working environment, at club, squad and performance level to grow. Very, very few youngsters come in and pull a relegation battling side up a few levels. A very good example is Timo Werner, you came into the fold of Stuttgart's first team as a massive talent, but was almost instantly tasked and burdened with the hopes of scoring the team out of the relegation zone. That's a massive burden for an 18 year old player and realistically something he has very little chance of succeeding in, considering most young players struggle with consistency - which is absolutely ok. They need a working architecture around them to flourish.
Our example Werner crumbled under that burden, left Stuttgart after they got relegated for Leipzig and instantly exploded in the vastly more settled environment of Red Bull.

So even if a smaller club is owned by the same people as a bigger club, it's in no one's interest to hazard that smaller club's performance and status by making them play 5 loaned out parent club youngsters. At the most you could probably have 3 at them at your disposal and work on properly incorporating them and giving them ample game time, but mostly it's even less, I'd tend to think.

You'd also have to completely align the two club's philosophies in terms of recruiting, development, manager choice, etc.

I think it's testament to the questionable nature of cooperations and feeder clubs that the only example of this working out more than it does not is the Red Bull franchise, which's standout feature is that all of the clubs in it are run by Rangnick and Mintzlaff, but at the same time are still kind of run as separate entities - testament to this being that players aren't mostly loaned out from Leipzig to Salzburg, but that Salzburg buys them and if they are ready for the next step it will be tried (mostly successfully) to keep them in the franchise, they will be sold on to big sister Leipzig. You should also keep in mind that these clubs are so entangled that their academies are basically one academy feeding both clubs. This kind of setup is a very longterm process and it's not surprising very few of these cooperations besides the very thought out, planned out Red Bull franchise work out.
Also you did just make me wonder how well considered AFC loans are, do we have someone coming up with a developmental plan for the academy players and evaluating the quality of a loan because Emile Smith Rowe loan is just the latest in many useless loans.
 

ArsenalFever

Active Member
Seen quite a bit of him, and he is a good player, but nope, not nearly good enough for Arsenal. Certainly considering the price Genk will want. He is not ready for Premier League. Wolfsburg would be a better move for him.
I don't think your giving him enough credit, for a winger, he's a very complete player, he's got a good directness, balanced well with timing and decision, similar playing style to how I could of envisioned Wilshere, if he reached he's potential.
is he any good?
Many regard him as the best player for Genk, who have just won their league by 7 points clear, playing in a country that just reached the semi finals of the world cup, he could do more than fill a hole left by Welbeck imo and would be a great addition even as a utility player for the prices being quoted, quality wise, I think he could play at any club, given the chance. Koulibaly was bought by Napoli from Genk, a good example of league quality jump.
I would be pretty pleased if we signed him.
 

Slartibartfast

CIES Loyalist
I suppose New York would make more sense than Girona as there's no relegation? But yeah you're probably right in it being much more difficult than i considered.

I'm interested to see how the Udinese and Watford relationship evolves, if it will eventually end up something similar to Red Bull or continue as is with Watford getting the fruits of the Pozzo scouting network to air in the premiership shop window and sending their lesser players to Udinese.

A couple of problems with loaning players to NYCFC, however, would be the March to October schedule, which would have the players playing during the summer and off in the winter; and the league structure of MLS as a single entity. Players sign contracts with the league, not with individual teams, so a direct loan may not even be possible.
 

The_Playmaker

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
You can see 9 players coming in??
I'd be very sceptical for half of that.

I think there is a possibility we will bring in a lot of players. We may go big on just one. But we need a rebuild and I think we need to do most of it now.

If you think about our squad, we have 29 players listed. Out of those 29, Suarez, Welbeck, Ramsey, Cech and Licthsteiner are already gone.

That's down to 24. Jenkinson, Asano and Elneny will go with Ospina and Martinez replaced by one ( OR Martinez will stay). That's 20.

Of that 20, Mavropanos needs a loan. You then have Chambers and Mustafi who most likely will be sold. You are now down to 18 first team members. That is roughly 12 players out and then is before even thinking about selling a few more that aren't good enough or have too high wages with little contribution.

Sell Xhaka, Özil and Miki and we are down to 15. Sure we could ending keeping them, but it makes sense to just sell them as well as Monreal. Leaves you with 14. Keep Koscielny in a Kompany role and buy 9 players. You then have a squad of 23.

We need to sell smart and buy smart apparantly.
 

SingmeasongSong

Right Sometimes
I think there is a possibility we will bring in a lot of players. We may go big on just one. But we need a rebuild and I think we need to do most of it now.

If you think about our squad, we have 29 players listed. Out of those 29, Suarez, Welbeck, Ramsey, Cech and Licthsteiner are already gone.

That's down to 24. Jenkinson, Asano and Elneny will go with Ospina and Martinez replaced by one ( OR Martinez will stay). That's 20.

Of that 20, Mavropanos needs a loan. You then have Chambers and Mustafi who most likely will be sold. You are now down to 18 first team members. That is roughly 12 players out and then is before even thinking about selling a few more that aren't good enough or have too high wages with little contribution.

Sell Xhaka, Özil and Miki and we are down to 15. Sure we could ending keeping them, but it makes sense to just sell them as well as Monreal. Leaves you with 14. Keep Koscielny in a Kompany role and buy 9 players. You then have a squad of 23.

We need to sell smart and buy smart apparantly.

Dont hold your breath for seeing Mustafi as well as chambers going out or being certain of Mavropanos going on loan.

Also expect some places being filled by youngsters (and I ****ing hope so !) rather than new incomings
 

The_Playmaker

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
Dont hold your breath for seeing Mustafi as well as chambers going out or being certain of Mavropanos going on loan.

Also expect some places being filled by youngsters (and I ****ing hope so !) rather than new incomings

You have to look at it from Emery's point of view. He has one season to trigger an extension of his contract. If he is unable to get Arsenal back into the Champions league and finishing top four with a good rebuild, he won't be trusted with another high profile job again. He will be a Europa League manager at best.

He has to be ruthless. He deemed Chambers not good enough so he let him go on loan. He played okay and now has some value. He has to sell him. Mavropanos is so raw that he had to keep subbing him off. He isn't good enough and needs a loan. If he loaned Chambers he should loan Mavropanos.

He then has players that he can't trust, are not good enough, Too old, or not worth their wage. He has to get rid. He can't afford to be battling with these players and tinkering his tactics to accommodate all of their weaknesses physically as well as mentally.

Players he can trust: Bellerin, Sokratis, Leno, Lacazette, Auba, Torreira. That is it.

Players he can develop: Iwobi, AMN, Guendouzi, Kolasinac.

Players who are too old: Monreal, Koscielny.

Players who are too error prone and consistently cost us: Xhaka, Mustafi.

Players who have baggage or are simply too inconsistent considering their wage: Miki,Özil.

Players who contribute nothing: Elneny, Asano, Ospina, Jenkinson.

Keep the players you can trust and the ones you can develop. Promote the youth who can contribute. Ie. Willock and Nelson. Loan the youth who can contribute next season and ****ing sell the ones who need to be sold.
 

Gooner416

Master of Stonks
Trusted ⭐

Country: Canada
You have to look at it from Emery's point of view. He has one season to trigger an extension of his contract. If he is unable to get Arsenal back into the Champions league and finishing top four with a good rebuild, he won't be trusted with another high profile job again. He will be a Europa League manager at best.

He has to be ruthless. He deemed Chambers not good enough so he let him go on loan. He played okay and now has some value. He has to sell him. Mavropanos is so raw that he had to keep subbing him off. He isn't good enough and needs a loan. If he loaned Chambers he should loan Mavropanos.

He then has players that he can't trust, are not good enough, Too old, or not worth their wage. He has to get rid. He can't afford to be battling with these players and tinkering his tactics to accommodate all of their weaknesses physically as well as mentally.

Players he can trust: Bellerin, Sokratis, Leno, Lacazette, Auba, Torreira. That is it.

Players he can develop: Iwobi, AMN, Guendouzi, Kolasinac.

Players who are too old: Monreal, Koscielny.

Players who are too error prone and consistently cost us: Xhaka, Mustafi.

Players who have baggage or are simply too inconsistent considering their wage: Miki,Özil.

Players who contribute nothing: Elneny, Asano, Ospina, Jenkinson.

Keep the players you can trust and the ones you can develop. Promote the youth who can contribute. Ie. Willock and Nelson. Loan the youth who can contribute next season and ****ing sell the ones who need to be sold.
Solid list and you make a good point about one season, however Guendouzi is a player he can trust and Unai has made that one obvious by how much he played him this season.
 

SingmeasongSong

Right Sometimes
You have to look at it from Emery's point of view. He has one season to trigger an extension of his contract. If he is unable to get Arsenal back into the Champions league and finishing top four with a good rebuild, he won't be trusted with another high profile job again. He will be a Europa League manager at best.

He has to be ruthless. He deemed Chambers not good enough so he let him go on loan. He played okay and now has some value. He has to sell him. Mavropanos is so raw that he had to keep subbing him off. He isn't good enough and needs a loan. If he loaned Chambers he should loan Mavropanos.

He then has players that he can't trust, are not good enough, Too old, or not worth their wage. He has to get rid. He can't afford to be battling with these players and tinkering his tactics to accommodate all of their weaknesses physically as well as mentally.

Players he can trust: Bellerin, Sokratis, Leno, Lacazette, Auba, Torreira. That is it.

Players he can develop: Iwobi, AMN, Guendouzi, Kolasinac.

Players who are too old: Monreal, Koscielny.

Players who are too error prone and consistently cost us: Xhaka, Mustafi.

Players who have baggage or are simply too inconsistent considering their wage: Miki,Özil.

Players who contribute nothing: Elneny, Asano, Ospina, Jenkinson.

Keep the players you can trust and the ones you can develop. Promote the youth who can contribute. Ie. Willock and Nelson. Loan the youth who can contribute next season and ****ing sell the ones who need to be sold.

I am not argumenting against what YOU WANT TO HAPPEN, I am simply claiming it wont happen.

And at least I would not want that much. 4-5 very good buys and the rest for our amazing talents is the best solution
 

Tomb Bombadil

Active Member
If Neto's release clause is €80 million and Valencia needs to raise €42 million by the end of June, it's highly unlikely that they would sell Neto for €20 million. That would be less than half what they need, so they'd need to sell off others just to raise that much. I mean, seriously, why would they do that?

But even if they were willing to sell at such a cut rate price, I think Arsenal would be better off spending the money on Keylor Navas if the believe they need a goalkeeper. But I don't see them spending €20 million on a goalkeeper until they've filled more pressing needs.
If they have to sell players to make money, the price goes down normaly. Neto will be a 30 year old goalkeeper and would cost probably max €20-25 million if they don't want to sell. If they have to sell their negotiation position will be worse. Why would they do that? They need €42 million.

And yeah I also think we shouldn't spend money on a Neto transfer.
 

Dutch D

Well-Known Member & FPL Champion 19/20
Nah Ziyech is a typical Özil player a lot of creativity on the ball.
He can definitely beat a man though, not with pace but with trickery. He also works incredibly hard, puts his heart into the game. We could use that in our squad.

Would definitely complement rather than replace Özil.
 

Flying Okapis

Most Well-Known Member
If they have to sell players to make money, the price goes down normaly. Neto will be a 30 year old goalkeeper and would cost probably max €20-25 million if they don't want to sell. If they have to sell their negotiation position will be worse. Why would they do that? They need €42 million.

And yeah I also think we shouldn't spend money on a Neto transfer.

Regardless of price we should not touch Neto, Leno has had a good first season, Neto and Leno is overkill, yes its great having a good backup but do we need to be dropping anything over £10mil on a back up, even as I write '£10mil' that seems too much.. just keep Ospina for another year, a goalkeeper is the last thing we need right now, address it when Ospina leaves, if Ospina doesn't appreciate being back up then tough titties, tell him that is his roll and move on.

Plus if we sign Neto the continuing b.s of playing one GK in important European and cup games will continue, personally I would like for that crap to stop.
 

scytheavatar

Established Member
Solid list and you make a good point about one season, however Guendouzi is a player he can trust and Unai has made that one obvious by how much he played him this season.

Guendouzi is not a player Emery can trust, yet he ends up being trusted far more than he should have. And neither is Torreira is that much better, both are highly flawed players who are inferior and less reliable than Xhaka ATM. If we rush to sell Xhaka and not spend to bring in an upgrade like Rúben Neves we will regret it. We have more problems in midfield than we have in defense, the ease in which opposition teams can pressure us out of the pitch is sickening.
 

Dutch D

Well-Known Member & FPL Champion 19/20
OUT: Cech, Koss, Chambers (20M), Mustafi ( 20M ), Monreal ( 5M ), Jenkinson, Xhaka ( 30 M ), Elnneny ( 2M ), Özil ( 30M ), Welbeck ( 10M ), Mkhy ( 15M ), Iwobi ( 25M ).

Budget: 40 M + ( 157 M ).

Buy:

That young German GK for free
Saliba ( 15M )
Tierney ( 30M )
Ndombele ( 50M )
Havertz ( 50 M )
Trossard ( 15 M )
Backup RB ( 15 M )
Left footed CB ( whoever can play for the rest of budget )

Incorporate Saka, Amaechi, Nelson, Smith-Rowe, Willock, Nketiah, Medley, young RBs ( Osei-Tutu, Daley Campbell ), Medley, Okonkwo and John-Jules as much in the first team and look for QUALITY LOANS for them.

This is preparation for the next two summers in which we have to get: young striker, star winger, captain of our defense and a midfield controlling player.
This is not the wish list thread mate.
 
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