Mesut Özil: Time to Move Ön?

[Jury]

They certainly weren't seen as bigger at the time. Many on here were saying they'd trade those spots for a trophy in a second. It was always Wenger insisting on the importance of CL qualification (which we now know was a actually necessary part of the financing plans re: the stadium). It was only when we finally fell out of those spots that people started to think they were actually quite important after all.

Of course, we had a run of years with both CL and trophies with the "Özil" team.

As much as I wanted a Cup, I knew CL places made more sense. I was as desperate as anyone, but if I'm honest, it was mainly to be able to shove it down the throats of the media and oppo fans, as sad as that may sound. I'm only human. I was 100% with Wenger with the '4th place trophy' thing, even if I knew oppo fans, and even our own, would have a field day with it. I defended him when they got angry about that. It was and always will be more important to the health of a club.

 

[Jury]

All said though, if we were sitting in 5th with a few games to go and were 2 minutes away from winning an FA cup, and you asked me what I wanted more... I'd probably need a piss.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

As much as I wanted a Cup, I knew CL places made more sense. I was as desperate as anyone, but if I'm honest, it was mainly to be able to shove it down the throats of the media and oppo fans, as sad as that may sound. I'm only human. I was 100% with Wenger with the '4th place trophy' thing, even if I knew oppo fans, and even our own, would have a field day with it. I defended him when they got angry about that. It was and always will be more important to the health of a club.

Doesn't sound sad to me. I felt the same way, which is part of the reason I hold those FA Cups (especially the first) in such high regard. And part of the reason I get a bit thorny when people downplay them. The club was desperate for a trophy due to the relentless talk in the media, etc. We needed to end that just so the narrative could finally change. That 2014 cup was massive in that sense.

As much as the CL spots were more important from a purely rational perspective, the tangible materialism of trophies is kind of what it's all meant to be about for big clubs and we needed to get them back.

 

[Makingtrax]

They certainly weren't seen as bigger at the time. Many on here were saying they'd trade those spots for a trophy in a second. It was always Wenger insisting on the importance of CL qualification (which we now know was a actually necessary part of the financing plans re: the stadium). It was only when we finally fell out of those spots that people started to think they were actually quite important after all.

Of course, we had a run of years with both CL and trophies with the "Özil" team.

This. Except Wenger never fell out of those spots, he was driven out after 20 years by a fan base bored with top 4 and a few FACups. It was nye on impossible for either the team or Wenger to compete under the pressure of boycotts, protests, planes and social media rants against them. Anybody who knows anything about football is aware that the top 4 is an extremely difficult place to reside. To perform with that weight against you is an expectation too far.

And it wasn’t just the confidence of the players that was affected, including Özil, but a panic that set into the whole club, from rash buying of players like Perez and Mustafi, to Wenger breaking with his normal swashbuckling tactics and adopting more reactive styles that didn’t suit him or the team.

 

[Red London]

Too much is made of the ending of the 'trophy drought'. He was present when we won 3 FA cups, just like all the other players were.

If you want to play that game, he was also part of the group that saw us fall off the edge footballing map; I think it would be extremely unfair to make the observation that he was present at that horrible time, because we all know it's nothing but a lame implication, right? That's all it is. You couldn't have one but ignore the other, so in the interest of fairness and to acknowledge ALL the players in success and failure, lets just let the two periods--the Cesc years and all those CL places, and the Özil period of a few FA cups before disappearing from the elite group--offset each other. Can't say fairer than that.

At the end of the day, though, his legacy will fade away. He'll never be looked on as fondly as Cesc was. If you think that's unfair, we'll revisit the discussion after he's robbed another years living off the club. It'll get worse, no question.

Exactly. I hate when people talk about winning trophies with Özil like he was the main driving force and we couldn’t do it without him. He was a part of the team but there much more influential players for us like Mertesacker, Sanchez, and especially Rambo. I don’t remember Özil being a massive factor toward winning any semi finals or finals for us.

It takes away from what we’ve done as a team anyway, and it’s just nitpicking facts to suit them. At the end of the day we have declined stature and respect wise since Özil joined us, but no one goes around saying he was the contributing factor to that because it’s far fetched.

As Özil showed in the final the other day he isn’t a big game player anyway, if you’re playing **** he will play **** 90% of the time

 

[Jury]

Doesn't sound sad to me. I felt the same way, which is part of the reason I hold those FA Cups (especially the first) in such high regard. And part of the reason I get a bit thorny when people downplay them. The club was desperate for a trophy due to the relentless talk in the media, etc. We needed to end that just so the narrative could finally change. That 2014 cup was massive in that sense.

As much as the CL spots were more important from a purely rational perspective, the tangible materialism of trophies is kind of what it's all meant to be about for big clubs and we needed to get them back.

It was nice for us, but look where we are now. We won 3 in 4 years and we haven't been worse off since the mid 90's. The FA cup isn't what it used to be in England or even Europe. It's a shot in the arm for a club but, as a big club, it has to make use of it.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

It was nice for us, but look where we are now. We won 3 in 4 years and we haven't been worse off since the mid 90's. The FA cup isn't what it used to be in England or even Europe. It's a shot in the arm for a club but, as a big club, it has to make use of it.

I suppose. But we missed the CL by all of one point last year (and didnt' we do the same previously..?) We could easily be in it right now if not for stupid errors by current players/management.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

I guess I'd just rather be where we are now with those three trophies in hand than have the CL run be unbroken and still not have a trophy since 2005.

 

[Jury]

Exactly. I hate when people talk about winning trophies with Özil like he was the main driving force and we couldn’t do it without him. He was a part of the team but there much more influential players for us like Mertesacker, Sanchez, and especially Rambo. I don’t remember Özil being a massive factor toward winning any semi finals or finals for us.

Per and Ramsey... I was at the Chelsea final and witnessed the best of both that day.

It's not a slant on Özil, but when I think of those triumphs, his name couldn't be further from my mind. I automatically think Ramsey, Per, Cazorla, Alexis, Kos... even Wilshere ffs. I can't even place Özil in any of those finals, honestly.

 

[Jury]

I guess I'd just rather be where we are now with those three trophies in hand than have the CL run be unbroken and still not have a trophy since 2005.

I suppose it's better in the bank. We're not miles off, so if we can get back in there like we should, those trophies will look better in the cabinet.

 

[Tosker]

the fans don't get a great day out for coming third or fourth, or any memories to hang on to in the dark days

 

[Makingtrax]

Per and Ramsey... I was at the Chelsea final and witnessed the best of both that day.

It's not a slant on Özil, but when I think of those triumphs, his name couldn't be further from my mind. I automatically think Ramsey, Per, Cazorla, Alexis, Kos... even Wilshere ffs. I can't even place Özil in any of those finals, honestly.

That’s only because it’s your narrative. The reality is different.

This from the BBC website after the 2017 Cup Final

Mesut Özil (attacking midfielder) - 8
Helped Arsenal run the show in the first half and dug in to do a shift defensively too. Crisp and creative with his passing.

Did you know: Özil hit the woodwork for the first time in a game in any competition this season.

 

[Jury]

That’s only because it’s your narrative. The reality is different.

This from the BBC website after the 2017 Cup Final

Mesut Özil (attacking midfielder) - 8
Helped Arsenal run the show in the first half and dug in to do a shift defensively too. Crisp and creative with his passing.

Did you know: Özil hit the woodwork for the first time in a game in any competition this season.

I was there, lad. That doesn't explain why his name doesn't spring to mind when I think of those triumphs. You saying his name springs to mind for you? I don't believe you. Nothing to do with narrative. Hitting the post is all I can remember. Failing to seal the game when it was easier to score. That is it.

 

[Makingtrax]

I was there, lad. That doesn't explain why his name doesn't spring to mind when I think of those triumphs. You saying his name springs to mind for you? I don't believe you. Nothing to do with narrative. Hitting the post is all I can remember. Failing to seal the game when it was easier to score. That it it.

Being there doesn’t stop you being blinkered.

 

[Jury]

Being there doesn’t stop you being blinkered.

Ok, you keep convincing yourself with newspaper clippings while I watch the games.

 

[Makingtrax]

Ok, you keep convincing yourself with newspaper clippings while I watch the games.

I watched the game too. Per and Ramsey were excellent, I’m not disagreeing, but Özil also played well that day. You trying to write him out of history is only because you’ve set against him.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

It's a damn shame he hit the post near the end of that game, would have been a great moment to seal the win.

 

[Jury]

I watched the game too. Per and Ramsey were excellent, I’m not disagreeing, but Özil also played well that day. You trying to write him out of history is only because you’ve set against him.

Im not, he was there and is part of it no matter what. He and others. I can't help it if his pass completion stat in one of the 3 finals we won didn't catch my eye or isn't etched in my memory forever. That's all I'm saying. Why does that has to be a dig at Özil? Oh, I'm Jury , I forgot.

 

[Jury]

This. Except Wenger never fell out of those spots, he was driven out after 20 years by a fan base bored with top 4 and a few FACups. It was nye on impossible for either the team or Wenger to compete under the pressure of boycotts, protests, planes and social media rants against them. Anybody who knows anything about football is aware that the top 4 is an extremely difficult place to reside. To perform with that weight against you is an expectation too far.

And it wasn’t just the confidence of the players that was affected, including Özil, but a panic that set into the whole club, from rash buying of players like Perez and Mustafi, to Wenger breaking with his normal swashbuckling tactics and adopting more reactive styles that didn’t suit him or the team.

When are you ever going to accept that it was Wenger that got himself the boot? Are you totally incapable of ever accepting facts, and you talk about me and my narratives?

 

[kraphtous]

Özil, Wenger and Alexis were the most important people during our recent FA Cup runs. Wenger because he managed to sign Mesut Özil and for successfully using his strengths which led to our first trophy. Ramsey didn't win it before his arrival, Cesc couldn't, van Persie couldn't. After that success, it meant we could sign Alexis Sanchez who helped Özil win the other two. Others helped in moments but when I think of the most important people, it's those three and it's no surprise that we can't win anymore without 2 of those 3.