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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

14Henry

Looking for receipts 👀
We're actually talking about separate things. I'm talking about having the starting point is that VAR gets factual decisions right. I'm not comparing VAR to the absence of VAR, I've already said I'm pro VAR just not its implementation to date. So I'm not counting that offside as a plus, because it was a clear and obvious VAR decision. I'm talking about the times VAR has been applied incorrectly or not applied when it should have been.

The problem with VAR is that the people actually using it are not compenent. And often it's with the simplest of decisions they are getting wrong. Kane yesterday was clearly pushed in the penalty box yesterday when about to plant a header. Var was check. No pen.

Fernandes was dancing in the box, went over the defender. Penalty given. Var was checked. Var official agreed. Those were 2 clear and obvious errors.
 

14Henry

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What am I reading here? Because VAR get some right its ok it get some wrong because it balances out?

No no no. With technology like VAR you should get all decision 100% right. Simple as that.

Who's saying it's ok?

What I am saying is that VAR hasnt cost us 7-8 points which was stated above.

Do you believe we have 7-8 points less solely because of Var?
 

Country: Iceland
Who's saying it's ok?

What I am saying is that VAR hasnt cost us 7-8 points which was stated above.

Do you believe we have 7-8 points less solely because of Var?

VAR should get every decision right. The moment it gets decision wrong and we lose points because of it we have lost points.

I don't know about 7-8 points mate, my memory about football is not that strong. So I can't be bothered going through all games but just take 2-2 draw against Crystal Palace earlier this season. Sokratis scored legit 3rd goal that VAR took from us, even FA has admitted the VAR verdict was wrong.

That's 2 points lost straight there because of VAR.
 

14Henry

Looking for receipts 👀
VAR should get every decision right. The moment it gets decision wrong and we lose points because of it we have lost points.

I don't know about 7-8 points mate, my memory about football is not that strong. So I can't be bothered going through all games but just take 2-2 draw against Crystal Palace earlier this season. Sokratis scored legit 3rd goal that VAR took from us, even FA has admitted the VAR verdict was wrong.

That's 2 points lost straight there because of VAR.

While I agree that the Sokratis decision was hugely wrong that does not guarantee we win the match.

While it increases the probability it doesnt guarantee anything. So even if the goal was given in the 83rd minute or whatever it was would that guarantee 3 points? No.

Nobody knows the consequences of the decisions and I completely agree every decision should be right. However i refuse to believe we are in the position we are in because of VAR.

I dont know how they are going to improve it next season but what I want is a team that doesnt rely on VAR as much as it relies on its players. Yes we want the correct decisions but VAR hasnt been the reason we have lost more points from leading positions than most if not all the teams in the league. Brighton the perfect example.
 

El Duderino

That's, like, your opinion, man.
Moderator
VAR in England will continue to be cack until referees are held accountable for following the rules incorrectly.

You need to strive towards consistency here, and until refs in England get their due and are force to professionalize, this won't happen.
 

14Henry

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VAR in England will continue to be cack until referees are held accountable for following the rules incorrectly.

You need to strive towards consistency here, and until refs in England get their due and are force to professionalize, this won't happen.

I think the reason they use this Stockley Park is so that nobody is ever accountable. It should be Ref gives penalty while waiting for confirmation from VAR. If it is clear cut Var radios through clear penalty. No argument.

However if theres any potential ambiguity VAR radios. It's a tough one. Video monitor it for yourself. If after that the ref still makes the wrong decision then at least someone can say. You thought one thing. You watched it again. You thought the same. And it was completely wrong. Why did you give it what was your thought process. We are all humans and make mistakes but if there is no consequence then mistakes will continue.
 

Oxeki

Match Day Thread Merchant
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Country: Nigeria

Player:Saliba
While I agree that the Sokratis decision was hugely wrong that does not guarantee we win the match.

While it increases the probability it doesnt guarantee anything. So even if the goal was given in the 83rd minute or whatever it was would that guarantee 3 points? No.

Nobody knows the consequences of the decisions and I completely agree every decision should be right. However i refuse to believe we are in the position we are in because of VAR.

I dont know how they are going to improve it next season but what I want is a team that doesnt rely on VAR as much as it relies on its players. Yes we want the correct decisions but VAR hasnt been the reason we have lost more points from leading positions than most if not all the teams in the league. Brighton the perfect example.
Are you saying if Jorginho was sent off at the Emirates, Chelsea would've beaten us?
 

lomekian

Essays are my thing
The problem with VAR is that the people actually using it are not compenent. And often it's with the simplest of decisions they are getting wrong.

I think with this we are in total agreement. The problem is its the same refs in the VAR room, when ultimately its a different skillset, because one (too much in my mind) takes into account the circumstances (game management they call it rather concerningly) and the other is just about analysing the factual information to either make a decision for the irrefuteable or give guidance for the questionable.

At the moment its either other refs letting their decisions be determined by their relationships with each other, or trying to ref the game remotely. Which isn't aided by the fact that there are 4 or 5 very very poor refs in the EPL at present.
 

lomekian

Essays are my thing
While I agree that the Sokratis decision was hugely wrong that does not guarantee we win the match.

While it increases the probability it doesnt guarantee anything. So even if the goal was given in the 83rd minute or whatever it was would that guarantee 3 points? No.
For the purposes of this discussion that's a fatuous argument because you could otherwise claim all officiating decisions are irrelevant unless they are the final decision. Nothing can ever be absolute, but significantly increased probability cannot be ignored
 

14Henry

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Are you saying if Jorginho was sent off at the Emirates, Chelsea would've beaten us?

No. I'm merely saying that the result of one action doesnt guarantee the outcome of another.

I would much rather forget any excuses about points won and lost and focus on limiting the reliance on officials, VAR, the way the wind blows. I'm not saying that those things arent important. I'm saying that we need to address why we cant hold onto leads, why we constantly get players (deservedly) sent off and why we cannot seem to kill teams off.
 

14Henry

Looking for receipts 👀
For the purposes of this discussion that's a fatuous argument because you could otherwise claim all officiating decisions are irrelevant unless they are the final decision. Nothing can ever be absolute, but significantly increased probability cannot be ignored

What I'm saying is we cant say if Sokratis goal is given we win the match. Or if Jorginho is sent off we win the match. Or if we get a man sent of we lose the match. Probability of results are increased but not certain.
 

lomekian

Essays are my thing
I think the reason they use this Stockley Park is so that nobody is ever accountable. It should be Ref gives penalty while waiting for confirmation from VAR. If it is clear cut Var radios through clear penalty. No argument.

However if theres any potential ambiguity VAR radios. It's a tough one. Video monitor it for yourself. If after that the ref still makes the wrong decision then at least someone can say. You thought one thing. You watched it again. You thought the same. And it was completely wrong. Why did you give it what was your thought process. We are all humans and make mistakes but if there is no consequence then mistakes will continue.

Bang on. The system here is all about avoiding accountability. While the pressure is immense and I certainly wouldn't advocate hanging refs out to dry due to the inevitablity of mistakes, the refusal to ever explain anything makes it feel arbitrary.

Even if, as per usual, the first proper use of a video screen was to Arsenal's disadvantage, I'd much rather use that. The problem is that unlike Rugby or cricket the fans are not party to any part of the discussion (and of course the video team against Leicester chose only to show the most damning angle).

VAR is the natural evolution to televised football because we can all see with our own eyes, but somehow its been implemented with no respect to the audience who give any of it relevance.

Also if we heard a dialogue it would be harder for refs to apply bias, because it would be picked up quickly.

Nketiah's red, would be a lot cleaner if we could hear a dialogue "Hi (insert ref here), its clearly not intentional, but nonetheless endangered the safety of an opponent in my view. Have a look yourself, as you are a better judge of force being so close, but I think it may be worthy of a red card"....."Yup, not malicious, but I couldn't tell in real time how high the contact was, so I agree, dangerous play, and a red card".

Not that that decision was particularly controversial, but it humanises and explains the process, and also helps the fans understand the laws and how are they applied.

It also means, when some chump seems to think Tarkowski's challenge is fine, they have to state why, and thus own their thought processes rather than having no responsibility but to their own conscience.

Having said all that, its not clear where the balance of decision making lies between FA, FIFA and match officials group, but at least if FIFA do take it over, we should have a globally consistent approach, and a singular point of criticism, rather than this political all hiding behind each other nonsense
 

lomekian

Essays are my thing
What I'm saying is we cant say if Sokratis goal is given we win the match. Or if Jorginho is sent off we win the match. Or if we get a man sent of we lose the match. Probability of results are increased but not certain.

Of course, but once can't really make an argument by saying "this incident may or may not have cost team A points depending on what may or may not have happened in the subsequent period because even though it was extremely significant, the possibilities of existence render its ultimate impact impossible to calculate".

That may be accurate, but it is also self defeating, because it questions any conclusion that can be drawn from anything without 100% certainty, which would only equate to a tiny % of the human experience ;-)

Agree that there are plenty of issues in the team that have to be the club's focus rather than refs, but it would be a lot easier to take if we had the inherent bias benefits of Liverpool or Man U over a 10 year average, as opposed to being one of the clubs that by any conducted analysis suffers most over a long term measure.

Of course in 02 and 04 we were so good that not even the two or three deeply biased refs at the time could stop us.
 

14Henry

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Of course, but once can't really make an argument by saying "this incident may or may not have cost team A points depending on what may or may not have happened in the subsequent period because even though it was extremely significant, the possibilities of existence render its ultimate impact impossible to calculate".

That may be accurate, but it is also self defeating, because it questions any conclusion that can be drawn from anything without 100% certainty, which would only equate to a tiny % of the human experience ;-)

Agree that there are plenty of issues in the team that have to be the club's focus rather than refs, but it would be a lot easier to take if we had the inherent bias benefits of Liverpool or Man U over a 10 year average, as opposed to being one of the clubs that by any conducted analysis suffers most over a long term measure.

Of course in 02 and 04 we were so good that not even the two or three deeply biased refs at the time could stop us.

That's the problem. I sometimes feel as fans that we are clutching at straws trying to cry about decisions and not getting them. However in reality they dont/wouldnt make a difference. Would those extra 2 points at Palace made a difference to our over all season? No.

Had we killed of the game against Leciester when we had to opportunities we wouldnt even blink about VAR. In fact maybe Nketiah doesnt even make the challenge if we are 2/3 0 up. He closes down but maybe not as aggressively.

Hard to know.
 

Riou

In The Winchester, Waiting For This To Blow Over

Country: Northern Ireland

Player:Gabriel
That's the problem. I sometimes feel as fans that we are clutching at straws trying to cry about decisions and not getting them. However in reality they dont/wouldnt make a difference. Would those extra 2 points at Palace made a difference to our over all season? No.

Had we killed of the game against Leciester when we had to opportunities we wouldnt even blink about VAR. In fact maybe Nketiah doesnt even make the challenge if we are 2/3 0 up. He closes down but maybe not as aggressively.

Hard to know.

Of course officials can be blamed, some of those decisions could have made a big difference in those matches.

It's like saying after United ended our unbeaten record..."You know what, Rooney dived to win the pen and United should have had at least 2 reds in the first half...but we should have been leading before this all happened, so it probably didn't make a big difference to the game itself" :lol:

If Vardy is sent off for kicking Mustafi, our chances of winning increase...if Jorginho was sent off for pulling Guendo, our chances of winning increase...if Sokratis' goal counts, our chances of winning increase...not certain, but they would significantly help.

Refs mistakes can play a big part in matches, in seasons...as they can add or subtract mental confidence in players at crucial moments.
 

14Henry

Looking for receipts 👀
Of course officials can be blamed, some of those decisions could have made a big difference in those matches.

It's like saying after United ended our unbeaten record..."You know what, Rooney dived to win the pen and United should have had at least 2 reds in the first half...but we should have been leading before this all happened, so it probably didn't make a big difference to the game itself" :lol:

If Vardy is sent off for kicking Mustafi, our chances of winning increase...if Jorginho was sent off for pulling Guendo, our chances of winning increase...if Sokratis' goal counts, our chances of winning increase...not certain, but they would significantly help.

Refs mistakes can play a big part in matches, in seasons...as they can add or subtract mental confidence in players at crucial moments.

I will repeat again. I'm not saying they are irrelevant. I'm saying that we are not in the position we are in the league because it VAR. Do you agree with that statement. Dont dodge it just say yes or no. A poster above stated we were about 7/8 points down because of VAR which i
Of course officials can be blamed, some of those decisions could have made a big difference in those matches.

It's like saying after United ended our unbeaten record..."You know what, Rooney dived to win the pen and United should have had at least 2 reds in the first half...but we should have been leading before this all happened, so it probably didn't make a big difference to the game itself" :lol:

If Vardy is sent off for kicking Mustafi, our chances of winning increase...if Jorginho was sent off for pulling Guendo, our chances of winning increase...if Sokratis' goal counts, our chances of winning increase...not certain, but they would significantly help.

Refs mistakes can play a big part in matches, in seasons...as they can add or subtract mental confidence in players at crucial moments.

Ok we are 8th in the league because of VAR. Let's all jump on that train.

Embarrassing the narrative around the club.

We have lost more points from winning positions than most team. That's VAR to.

Xhaka or Mustafi will probably give away a penalty on Sunday and we will blame VAR too.

We are not 7/8 points down this season because of VAR. Simple as.
 

Hunta

Established Member
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Country: England
Massive simp fest his press conference. Absolute disgrace for an Arsenal coach to be talking up Sp**s and Mourinho like that.

#ArtetaOut is closer and closer to returning.
 

OnlyOne

‘Donkeys don’t have a peak, they remain useless’
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Country: England
Massive simp fest his press conference. Absolute disgrace for an Arsenal coach to be talking up Sp**s and Mourinho like that.

#ArtetaOut is closer and closer to returning.

Love you man.
 
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