Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[<<reed>>]

Actually, Emery was often praised during his first full season here, where he finished 9th in the xG table. Arteta currently in his first full season has us at 8th (or 7th?) in the xG table. Emery's second full season of course was far, far, worse.

The difference between Emery and Arteta is that with Emery there was never a good performance level, and there was never a tactical coherence or any delineable plan in place. With Arteta we currently have both of these things, even if it's taken longer than we would've liked.

Dunno about you, but good performance level, tactical coherence and a delineable plan, well, these thing are, you know, kinda important to me. To others it would seem not so much, hence the Emery and Arteta comparisons, I guess...

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Oh the league is getting harder argument. Is that why Moyes is 4th and Pool and City have been smashing records with the most points ever. You have no evidence for that either. And there are many reasons for injuries, most of which do not involve the manager.

Of course there is evidence. Just look at the results in Europe in comparison to where they were in the middle of the past decade (when English clubs struggled tremendously in Europe, both in CL and EL). Look at the managerial talent in England compared to what it was 5-6 year ago. Klopp, Pep, and Poch coming to England represented something of a before and after for this league. The tactical level has improved enormously, that simply cannot be understated. Flash back 5-6 years ago, here in Spain we had a far superior tactical level while inferior talent level. Still a better league than England. Flash forward to now and the tactical level is better in England as is significantly the talent level.

This is where I'm talking about confirmation bias. You literally ignore everything relevant about football to try and fundament your own pre-conceived conclusions.

 

[Makingtrax]

Hard to judge Arteta on his spend when the massive amount of money spent on the current squad wasn't done under him (FFS, the Pepe deal has set us back alone). He inherited a contract mess with a bloated squad. Then a pandemic happened. On top of that, he inherited a mentality in the dressing room that has been **** for a long time. He's instilling a new culture with a new system of play. It's going to take time. I've said before that I expect more downs than ups with this squad but he will carry us forward in the long run. It's just going to take time. It's frustrating, I don't like the losing myself, but I can see in the details of how we play that we're making progress.

Mate he’s making a contract mess of his own. Sacking scouts, relying on money laundering agents, giving long and expensive deals to 32 year olds that can’t even be arsed. That’s not a new culture I’m in favour of. And granted he’s made our defence better, but it’s no good if you don’t fix the attack at the same time, our goal difference is woeful. Any team can sit back like we did yesterday and stifle attacks but scoring is another matter. Our xG yesterday was 0.33, we created nothing.

 

[Rasmi]

This is changing and you could see it yesterday. We're playing the ball out from the back in tighter spaces, making passes that players wouldn't think of doing before. The only one I don't see doing it is Elneny, meanwhile Xhaka has upped his game incredibly and deserves credit. Whatever they're doing in training is working.

So you think El nenny playing next to the cbs is something he decided to do and not instructions from the manager? El nenny always do this and its clear its tactics because when he comes deep the 2 cbs spread. You really think any manager would watch his midfielders do something he is against all the time and he wont change that? El nenny is getting blame for Artetas tactics

 

[AbouCuéllar]

https://understat.com/league/EPL/2018

7th, behind Wolves.

That's currently where xG has us now (though complicated by Everton having less fixtures). Let's see where we finish at the end of the season.

 

[<<reed>>]

https://understat.com/league/EPL/2018

7th, behind Wolves.

That's currently where xG has us now (though complicated by Everton having less fixtures). Let's see where we finish at the end of the season.

that's not xG table though

 

[Makingtrax]

Actually, Emery was often praised during his first full season here, where he finished 9th in the xG table. Arteta currently in his first full season has us at 8th (or 7th?) in the xG table. Emery's second full season of course was far, far, worse.

The difference between Emery and Arteta is that with Emery there was never a good performance level, and there was never a tactical coherence or any delineable plan in place. With Arteta we currently have both of these things, even if it's taken longer than we would've liked.

Dunno about you, but good performance level, tactical coherence and a delineable plan, well, these thing are, you know, kinda important to me. To others it would seem not so much, hence the Emery and Arteta comparisons, I guess...

Arteta is 10th in the xG table.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Arteta is 10th in the xG table.

You're struggling to read the table right. xPTS is the weight of xG and xGA. ie the relevant marker here.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

Where I struggle with this is:

Why isit Arteta needs a f*ck ton of money and the best team in the league?

and yeah Unai crashed and burned horrendously with all the same roadblocks. The reaction to both is day and night however, internally and externally.

I just don't get it.

In my opinion a decent percentage of the fanbase thought that Wenger was old, stale and holding the club back in his latter years, that was the narrative I saw anyway.

When Emery came in and didn't transform us back to what we were within 18 months the same fans turned on him too. If Emery wasn't an awful manager it would go against the narrative that they'd built up for years that Wenger was the one holding the club back from success.

I think since Emery's departure there's been a dawning realisation within a lot of the fanbase that there are serious issues with our squad / the way the club is ran and many Arsenal fans have given Arteta a bit more leeway. It probably helps that he's quite a well liked ex-player too.

 

[dka1]

I think he meant xPts in which we did indeed finish 7th as we both over performed in xG and xGa

Edit: And I see his comment now lol.

 

[dka1]

Arteta is 10th in the xG table.

We're slap bang where we're meant to be, 10th on all important expected metrics.

 

[Dutch D]

If Arteta wins the Europa League and gets us to 6th or 7th in the league then you have to give him full backing and a lot more time.

If we get bounced from the Europa by lower opposition and collapse in the league then it might be time to call it.

That's my current mood with Arteta as well. I find it difficult to judge how the leadership is doing in general (Edu et al.) but questions need to be asked about that structure as well. We need to be a lot better run as a club, feels like we've been going backwards.

This is changing and you could see it yesterday. We're playing the ball out from the back in tighter spaces, making passes that players wouldn't think of doing before. The only one I don't see doing it is Elneny, meanwhile Xhaka has upped his game incredibly and deserves credit. Whatever they're doing in training is working.

It is changing slowly, I will admit. Things are slowly looking better since December. But:

• I still think Xhaka is not doing it nearly as much as he should. He is passing the ball faster, with fewer touches before the pass, but like I said I have had so many moments this season where he should've instigated a transition / counter and needlessly turned backwards for a pass to the CB's when he had lots of space. There was a short video shared on this forum a while ago that was exemplary of this attitude, but I can't seem to find it with a quick search.
• Holding is frankly a bad passer from the back and still doesn't really dare to pass to the CM's.
• Luiz has the Hollywood long pass, but also quite inaccurate with the short pass.
• Bellerin has such poor handling he often cannot turn forward with his first touch but is forced to pass the ball back during build up. He's getting better in the attacking phase, though.

 

[Garrincha]

is the 'defence wins you championships' really a thing in football when all the team always on the pitch?

if a manager improves the defence but the attack drops off & the team drops down the league the manager just ****ed up

 

[al-Ustaadh]

Mate he’s making a contract mess of his own. Sacking scouts, relying on money laundering agents, giving long and expensive deals to 32 year olds that can’t even be arsed. That’s not a new culture I’m in favour of. And granted he’s made our defence better, but it’s no good if you don’t fix the attack at the same time, our goal difference is woeful. Any team can sit back like we did yesterday and stifle attacks but scoring is another matter. Our xG yesterday was 0.33, we created nothing.

I've been saying the entire time that our attack needs to get better, and I expect it will. But he can only do so much with the squad he has in that area. I've wanted investment in attack going back to Wenger, particularly on the wings. I just don't think he has the players in that area that he wants for his system which is why it's been easier to fix from the back first. I think he's been smart in fixing the foundation with the limited finances he's been given and the contract situation he inherited.

And I don't think he's making a contract mess, barring the Willian contract. You can see why they wanted Willian though (close control on the ball, had the reputation of putting in a shift when at Chelsea; even Chelsea fans are bemused by his form under us) and only in hindsight can it be criticized at the level it is as a bad deal. With that being said, I'm not a fan of Willian.

This charge of agent links can be said with Sanllehi, not so much with Edu even though the latter's agent is Kia. Sanllehi is now gone. All the signings fans complain about as far as "agent links" were done under Sanllehi, including Mari and Pepe (who don't have Kia as their agent). But I don't think all these were bad signings in the long run, especially when you view their roles in the squad. I think Mari, Cedric, and Luiz have all performed fine. And if I were you, I'd expect another season of Luiz to save money for other areas of investment.

So you think El nenny playing next to the cbs is something he decided to do and not instructions from the manager? El nenny always do this and its clear its tactics because when he comes deep the 2 cbs spread. You really think any manager would watch his midfielders do something he is against all the time and he wont change that? El nenny is getting blame for Artetas tactics

What the **** are you talking about? Of course the midfielders come deep for the ball, because we build from the back. I'm talking about the general nature of the passing. Elneny doesn't like playing passes in tight spaces, nor forward, only sideways or backwards. From my reading for why he played yesterday though is because he doesn't give the ball away like Ceballos does on the regular and that's dangerous against a team like City.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

In my opinion a decent percentage of the fanbase thought that Wenger was old, stale and holding the club back in his latter years, that was the narrative I saw anyway.

When Emery came in and didn't transform us back to what we were within 18 months the same fans turned on him too. If Emery wasn't an awful manager it would go against the narrative that they'd built up for years that Wenger was the one holding the club back from success.

I think since Emery's departure there's been a dawning realisation within a lot of the fanbase that there are serious issues with our squad / the way the club is ran and many Arsenal fans have given Arteta a bit more leeway. It probably helps that he's quite a well liked ex-player too.

I'll give my characterisation here because I think there is more grey area than you allow here and this feels a bit like a straw-man of a position I might fall under.

I do think Wenger was holding the club back in his latter years. I was a staunch supporter of his until 2015-16, when it became clear to me tactically he was simply deficient in respect to the best in his profession, and that it was impossible to come to any other conclusion that the constant, uncommon (wrt to our competitors) injury problems that were holding us back was not something accidental but something rather endemic to the way the club was run under Wenger.

With the benefit of hindsight, I'd say he probably shouldn't have been allowed to go past 13-14. A real ambitious, big club that demands results from its manager probably should've cut the ties then (or in 10-11). 14-15 was the first season I really started to consider that the more articulate of the Wenger outers might be right about his tactical deficiencies. 12-13 is the last season I can say with confidence Wenger did a decent job given his talent, but even then, the project was wavering and without a clear direction, and if you have the full use of hindsight a good hire after 10-11 probably would've done wonders for this club.

I didn't expect Emery to transform us back into what we were within 18 months, his reign was basically exactly what I expected. It was a shocking hire, by the same incompetent regime that had allowed Wenger to go on for far too long, and it worked out that way.

Arteta so far in terms of pure results (and performances, I don't really distinguish between the two) has been underwhelming for me up until finally the end of December. I've maintained hope based on the fact that he clearly is a good coach who the players respond to and who is effective at getting his instructions across. I had massive doubts about the quality of his instructions until the end of December.

We MUST distinguish competitive environments. Simply put, Wenger was not playing in the same league as Arteta is now. Arteta isn't even playing in the same league as Emery was. Look no further than Wolves, who finished above Emery in the xG table in his first season, and this season are not even a top table team, without any real competitive downgrade (one might argue quite the opposite, actually) from 2 years ago.

 

[Makingtrax]

Of course there is evidence. Just look at the results in Europe in comparison to where they were in the middle of the past decade (when English clubs struggled tremendously in Europe, both in CL and EL). Look at the managerial talent in England compared to what it was 5-6 year ago. Klopp, Pep, and Poch coming to England represented something of a before and after for this league. The tactical level has improved enormously, that simply cannot be understated. Flash back 5-6 years ago, here in Spain we had a far superior tactical level while inferior talent level. Still a better league than England. Flash forward to now and the tactical level is better in England as is significantly the talent level.

This is where I'm talking about confirmation bias. You literally ignore everything relevant about football to try and fundament your own pre-conceived conclusions.

Mate these are all opinions, where are your facts?I can argue the exact reverse. Rodgers a few years ago couldn’t cut it with a Liverpool squad spending more than Leicester but now he’s 3rd. Moyes couldn’t cut it with United spending 2nd a few years ago, but now he’s 4th with a much cheaper side. Is it easier now? If the league is overall tougher, the winners should we winning with less points not breaking records.

And in the last 5 years of the CL we’ve had 3 teams in the finals dominated by Real Madrid. Pick the 5 years 2005 to 2010 and we had 5 teams in the finals. It’s been going up and down throughout the years for a multitude of reasons, none of which are anything to do with making excuses for Arteta.

I don’t think you understand what confirmation bias means.

 

[Rex Stone]

is the 'defence wins you championships' really a thing in football when all the team always on the pitch?

if a manager improves the defence but the attack drops off & the team drops down the league the manager just ****ed up

Yeah good defence and nothing else doesn’t really win you the league. It’s the easiest part of football coaching to sort a defence out.

The problem is that it’s a lot harder to sort a defence out and keep scoring goals. That’s why managers who can do both are paid the most.

Watching Championship football you appreciate this a lot more. Some sh*thouse like Warnock or Pulis will come in and the team tightens up but then can’t score a goal to save their lives.

This is where we’re at.

 

[al-Ustaadh]

• I still think Xhaka is not doing it nearly as much as he should. He is passing the ball faster, with fewer touches before the pass, but like I said I have had so many moments this season where he should've instigated a transition / counter and needlessly turned backwards for a pass to the CB's when he had lots of space. There was a short video shared on this forum a while ago that was exemplary of this attitude, but I can't seem to find it with a quick search.

• Holding is frankly a bad passer from the back and still doesn't really dare to pass to the CM's.

• Luiz has the Hollywood long pass, but also quite inaccurate with the short pass.

• Bellerin has such poor handling he often cannot turn forward with his first touch but is forced to pass the ball back during build up. He's getting better in the attacking phase, though.

Out of all these players, only Xhaka in my reading has a future as a regular option in the starting XI. So the rest it's hard to judge when it comes to the future of what Arteta's system will look like as a more finalized product. Holding is back-up, Luiz probably only has one more season here. Bellerin I actually see being sold unless he's fine with taking Cedric's place in the squad down the line.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Mate these are all opinions, where are your facts?I can argue the exact reverse. Rodgers a few years ago couldn’t cut it with a Liverpool squad spending more than Leicester but now he’s 3rd. Moyes couldn’t cut it with United spending 2nd a few years ago, but now he’s 4th with a much cheaper side. Is it easier now? If the league is overall tougher, the winners should we winning with less points not breaking records.

And in the last 5 years of the CL we’ve had 3 teams in the finals dominated by Real Madrid. Pick the 5 years 2005 to 2010 and we had 5 teams in the finals. It’s been going up and down throughout the years for a multitude of reasons, none of which are anything to do with making excuses for Arteta.

I don’t think you understand what confirmation bias means.

Ugh, yes, as I said, you argue like Manberg. Fervent and radical in the search of confirming your pre-conceived doctrine.

Again, have a look at results in Europe from 2010-2018. It paints a very clear picture. And it's facts.


(For the sake of entirety: Rodgers and Moyes are enjoying typical over-achieving seasons. The xG table bears this out. These things tend to even out over the course of a full season--see Rodgers' Leicester last season--and if not, certainly over the course of two. It's been an ugly season in terms of results but I will be extremely surprised if we don't finish above at least one of West Ham and Leicester in the actual table, and probably both in the xG table. Feel free to bookmark this post. )

 

[dashsnow17]

is the 'defence wins you championships' really a thing in football when all the team always on the pitch?

if a manager improves the defence but the attack drops off & the team drops down the league the manager just ****ed up

Yeah that feels like something pundits who played in the 80s and 90s say. Pretty sure consistent goalscoring is the surest way to climb the table these days.