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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

kash2

More Consistent Than Arteta
‘Exciting young manager schooled in the Arsenal way’

The sauce is putrid, admittedly, but there you go @Makingtrax . :lol:

I'm assuming this post was in relation to me as I was who Trax was responding to.

Throwing around accusations of 'Incel whining' and 'Shilling for Kroenke' is just laughable.

If we're playing Kash2 insult bingo you should have thrown in some Brexit and bent refs references too and called me demented. Those are usually your staples.

I have missed you and your bizarre insults Kash :lol:

aww go bait someone else.
 

kash2

More Consistent Than Arteta
Tbf @Jury is right here, Wenger was not developing players well in the latter era...Jack, Ramsey, Ox, Gnabry all stalled or had major issues under his management. Ramsey and Jack especially would've benefited from a more tactically modern coach (not to mention injury issues endemic to Wenger's outdated approach to training and preparation).

Ox immediately had about triple the progression in one season at Liverpool than he did in 4-5 years at Arsenal.
:fibs:
 

GoonerJay24

Well-Known Member
No it's not boring it's an interesting study in human nature. You'd think people p!ssed with top 4 for not winning the league, who wanted both Wenger and Emery gone, would be be even more p!ssed at being 11th and playing poor football.

But apparently not. Discuss.

Agreed. It also shows how much power the media have in influencing supporters.

I've said many times over the last 20 years, there is a deeply rooted agenda anti-Arsenal within English football. You listen to the pundits speaking about clubs, whenever Arsenal get mentioned there's always a certain negative tone. Even just now funnily on talksport, the presenters were praising all the English clubs for their European endeavours including Leicester who lost; but when Arsenal came up he started slating the club and couldn't give an ounce of credit for coming back to win the tie.

Worth mentioning also this agenda goes way back even before Wenger arrived.
 

OnlyOne

‘Donkeys don’t have a peak, they remain useless’
Trusted ⭐

Country: England
Maybe there was a little over reaction to this tie, Auba should of had a hatty in the first leg, and then a huge Ceballos error and an unreal free kick made it look worse than it was.

Problem persists though is that I'm still sat here waiting for something to click, waiting for a handful of games where we blow teams away, a few matches in a row where you think we're making progress.

There really isn't much left of the season at all and there is nothing inspiring you to say we should be excited for next year. We need some sort of run where a corner is turned but I think it's far too late.

It's getting close to the stage where you wonder if we even get a scrappy Europa League win whether you'd stay on with Mikel. I know some wouldn't.
 

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
Tbf @Jury is right here, Wenger was not developing players well in the latter era...Jack, Ramsey, Ox, Gnabry all stalled or had major issues under his management. Ramsey and Jack especially would've benefited from a more tactically modern coach (not to mention injury issues endemic to Wenger's outdated approach to training and preparation).

Ox immediately had about triple the progression in one season at Liverpool than he did in 4-5 years at Arsenal.
This post is poor.

Sweet 'n' Sour said "no Arsenal manager in the last 25 years has consistently got high class performances from teenagers that have come through the system."

I named names, then he changed goal posts to British. Even then with Ramsey Wenger got high class performances out of him very young. Ditto Wilshere. They played in Champions league, our current crop haven't yet. Arteta can't even speak to Wenger in this regard.

Enduring another full game, Saka remains Arsenal’s most-used outfield player in the Premier League and Europa League combined this season. A pillar of the squad, he has played 2,066 minutes across the two competitions, with Bernd Leno (2,682), Hector Bellerin (2,033) and Granit Xhaka (2,019) the only others to top 2,000 minutes.

Furthermore, what's really different from Arteta's usage of his best youth and Wenger?
Shall we count the amount of young skeletons that have fallen by the wayside under Arteta's watch and are no longer of use to us?

We can keep that British too if you want to watch passports and lessen the number a bit.

Why can't Arteta In guys just praise their crappy manager without trying to discredit our most successful manager ever?
 

Jury

A-M's drunk uncle
Tbf @Jury is right here, Wenger was not developing players well in the latter era...Jack, Ramsey, Ox, Gnabry all stalled or had major issues under his management. Ramsey and Jack especially would've benefited from a more tactically modern coach (not to mention injury issues endemic to Wenger's outdated approach to training and preparation).

Ox immediately had about triple the progression in one season at Liverpool than he did in 4-5 years at Arsenal.
Tbf, they know I’m right as well. The clue is when they start reeling off products of other clubs’ systems and holding up the likes of Kieran Gibbs as an example. Must be difficult submitting such disingenuous guff.
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
This post is poor.

Sweet 'n' Sour said "no Arsenal manager in the last 25 years has consistently got high class performances from teenagers that have come through the system."

I named names, then he changed goal posts to British. Even then with Ramsey Wenger got high class performances out of him very young. Ditto Wilshere. They played in Champions league, our current crop haven't yet. Arteta can't even speak to Wenger in this regard.

I don't really have much to say about your squabble with Jury but my point still stands.

Those guys played in CL because we were a CL club in a quite different league panorama. Wilshere, Ramsey, Ox, and Gnabry (Jeff also worth mentioning here) were also talents at the level or above that of our current crop. At least at the level. Wenger's management of Gnabry was horrendous, there's no denying that (loan to West Brom, injury issues endemic to his reign, not giving him a clear route to the first team over far inferior talent like Ox and Iwobi when he came back.)

That said, Wenger's progression of our youth (Nelson, AMN, Willock, Jeff) wasn't particularly impressive in his years in EL.
 

blrgooner

Established Member
3rd in the league and 15 points ahead of us., without spending anywhere close to what we have. What a stupid comment.
Not really a stupid comment given that the context is people blaming a manager for "Not performing well" in a europa league match which he won. We have an arguably better manager (Rogers, Definitely better in terms of league performance) struggling against weaker opposition and losing the tie on the same matchday.
The whole reaction to Benfica game here sounds like we just needed to turn up and roll them over. It doesn`t work like that in Europe against teams like Benfica.
 

mpower2540

Well-Known Member
Tbf @Jury is right here, Wenger was not developing players well in the latter era...Jack, Ramsey, Ox, Gnabry all stalled or had major issues under his management. Ramsey and Jack especially would've benefited from a more tactically modern coach (not to mention injury issues endemic to Wenger's outdated approach to training and preparation).

Ox immediately had about triple the progression in one season at Liverpool than he did in 4-5 years at Arsenal.
Did he?? He’s been played in CM more there I guess (his preferred position) had the odd terrific game, scored the odd wonder goal but I’d say he’s been just as inconsistent at Liverpool as he was with Arsenal.

Wilshere was a victim of being overplayed when he was young then trying to become a Steven Gerrard type when he was more of an Iniesta. Ramsey yes, I think he needed a better setup around him but he developed pretty well all in all considering he had a catastrophic injury. Of all the issues I had with Wenger I wouldn’t place giving players opportunities to develop would be top of my list.
 

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
That said, Wenger's progression of our youth (Nelson, AMN, Willock, Jeff) wasn't particularly impressive in his years in EL.
If you want to praise Arteta, then just praise Arteta.

When it comes to development of young talent and using average players at the highest level and making them work (like Gibbs!) - not many people in world football are speaking to Wenger, let alone Arteta.

Ox hasn't done jack spit in a Liverpool shirt except Rondo's in training, he's been injured and a bench player. All this reaching to discredit Wenger is embarrassing.
 

Jury

A-M's drunk uncle
This post is poor.

Sweet 'n' Sour said "no Arsenal manager in the last 25 years has consistently got high class performances from teenagers that have come through the system."I named names, then he changed goal posts to British. Even then with Ramsey Wenger got high class performances out of him very young. Ditto Wilshere. They played in Champions league, our current crop haven't yet. Arteta can't even speak to Wenger in this regard.



Furthermore, what's really different from Arteta's usage of his best youth and Wenger?
Shall we count the amount of young skeletons that have fallen by the wayside under Arteta's watch and are no longer of use to us?

Why can't Arteta In guys just praise their crappy manager without trying to discredit our most successful manager ever?
I didn’t move any goal posts. I didn’t include ‘English’, that’s all.
As for ‘skeletons’, you think every Hale End product has a future here? What planet are you on?
And there is no ‘in’ or ‘out’ for me. I know it makes it easier for people to create these divides so you know where to throw your stones, but that’s evidently not how it is for the vast majority who you paint as such.

If acknowledging that no Arsenal manager has managed to get high quality and consistency from two English Hale End products in 25 years is ‘discrediting Wenger’ then you must be quite sensitive.
 
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AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
If you want to praise Arteta, then just praise Arteta.

I haven't mentioned Arteta once...We're talking about Wenger.

I love Wenger as much as anyone (was gonna say maybe less than Makingtrax, but I think he just loves the idea of being 'right' and confirmation biasing the **** out if his idea of him lol, which means it's more of a masturbatory thing, so maybe as much or more than him too), but there seems to be an important faction on this forum that are rather blind to his deficiencies.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
Agreed. It also shows how much power the media have in influencing supporters.

I've said many times over the last 20 years, there is a deeply rooted agenda anti-Arsenal within English football. You listen to the pundits speaking about clubs, whenever Arsenal get mentioned there's always a certain negative tone. Even just now funnily on talksport, the presenters were praising all the English clubs for their European endeavours including Leicester who lost; but when Arsenal came up he started slating the club and couldn't give an ounce of credit for coming back to win the tie.

Worth mentioning also this agenda goes way back even before Wenger arrived.
So true. Social media and agendas with TV pundits have a powerful hold over the gullible. You tell them long enough that just top 4 is terrible and people will believe it. And then a kind of hysteria grows around it. The millions that actually believe the US election was stolen is a testament to it’s power.

The trouble is when these people come out of their trance they feel a bit stupid and that’s why they’re scratching around for tiny positives that might show them that being mid table and relegated to the Europa league was somehow all worth it.:lol:
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
Not really a stupid comment given that the context is people blaming a manager for "Not performing well" in a europa league match which he won. We have an arguably better manager (Rogers, Definitely better in terms of league performance) struggling against weaker opposition and losing the tie on the same matchday.
The whole reaction to Benfica game here sounds like we just needed to turn up and roll them over. It doesn`t work like that in Europe against teams like Benfica.
You’re right of course, but couple weak Europa performances with p!ss poor league stats and there’s a pattern.
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
12/13
CL
England: 2 teams in round of 16 (eliminated)
Spain: 4 teams in round of 16, 3 teams in quarter-finals, 2 teams in semifinals

EL
England: 4 in R16, 2 quarterfinals, winner Chelsea
Spain: 1 in R16

13/14
CL
England: 4 in R16, 2 in QF, 1 in semis
Spain: 3 in R16, 3 in QF, 2 in semis, 2 in final, winner Madrid

EL
England: 1 in R16
Spain: 3 in R16 (drew each other), 2 in QF, 2 in semis, winner Sevilla

14/15
CL
England: 3 in R16 (eliminated)
Spain: 3 in QF (drew each other), 2 in semis, winner Barcelona

EL
England: 1 in R16
Spain: 2 in R16 (drew each other), 1 in QF, 1 in semis, winner Sevilla

15/16
CL
England: 3 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in semis
Spain: 3 in R16, 3 in QF (drew each other), 2 in semifinals, 2 in final, winner Madrid

EL
England: 3 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in semifinals, 1 in final
Spain: 4 in R16 (drew each other), 3 in QF (drew each other), 2 in semifinals, winner Sevilla

16/17
CL
England: 3 in R16, 1 in QF
Spain: 4 in R16, 3 in QF, 2 in semifinal (drew each other), winner Madrid

EL
England: 1 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in SF, winner Manchester United
Spain: 1 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in SF

17/18
CL
England: 4 in R16, 2 in QF (drew each other), 1 in SF, 1 in final
Spain: 3 in R16, 3 in QF, 1 in SF, winner Madrid

EL
England: 1 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in SF, 1 in final
Spain: 2 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in SF, winner Atlético

18/19
CL
England: 4 in R16, 4 in QF, 2 in SF, 2 in final, winner Liverpool
Spain: 3 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in SF

EL
England: 2 in R16, 2 in QF, 2 in SF, 2 in final, winner Chelsea
Spain: 3 in R16, 2 in QF (drew each other), 1 in SF

19/20 (*pandemic effects worth nothing?)
CL
England: 4 in R16, 1 in QF
Spain: 4 in R16, 2 in QF

EL
England: 2 in R16, 2 in QF, 1 in semifinals, 1 in final
Spain: 2 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in semifinals, winner Sevilla





Clear trend if there ever was one.

Facts:
*From 12-13 to 16-17, just once did all 4 teams from England qualify for the R16 in CL. Since, every single year.

*In that same time, England had 4 quarterfinalists to Spain's 14. Since, 7 to 6.

*In that same time, England had 2 semifinalists to Spain's 10. Since, 3 to 2.

*In that same time, England had 0 finalists to Spain's 6, and 4 winners. Since, 3 to 1, 1 winner each.


(EL evidence you can tally up yourself, but it presents a similar if not as brutally clear picture)

Poster posts this

I only look at data bro. You’ll get over it.

Says this, completely ignoring data because it totally refutes his null and ridiculous position that he must defend for the sake of his null and ridiculous argument.

So true. Social media and agendas with TV pundits have a powerful hold over the gullible. You tell them long enough that just top 4 is terrible and people will believe it. And then a kind of hysteria grows around it. The millions that actually believe the US election was stolen is a testament to it’s power.

The trouble is when these people come out of their trance they feel a bit stupid and that’s why they’re scratching around for tiny positives that might show them that being mid table and relegated to the Europa league was somehow all worth it.:lol:

Talks haughtily like this, as if others were deluded and ignorant and ignoring factual evidence for the sake of their fervent agenda.

:lol::facepalm::facepalm:

Talk about projection. :lol: The conspiracy theorist trumper here is you, buddy, sorry to tell you. :thumbsup: (It's crazy how you argue exactly like Manberg in the Xhaka thread, lol, it's copy and paste stuff, literally identical, he did the same Trump projection speech when he was clearly the fervent agendist haha)
 
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GDeep™

League is very weak
Saka, AMN, Guendouzi etc all got their breaks and performed for Emery. AMN killed Valencia I think playing RB in the EL. Saka even today talks about Emery, when he signed his contract in his statement he spoke about Emery.

If anything, the biggest issue with Arteta I have is that for now he has washed his hands with our young talent - he’s developed basically none of them. Saliba, Martinelli and AMN have actually stalled or gone backwards.
 

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
I didn’t move any goal posts. I didn’t include ‘English’, that’s all.
As for ‘skeletons’, you think every Hale End product has a future here? What planet are you on?
And there is no ‘in’ or ‘out’ for me. I know it makes it easier for people to create these divides so you know where to throw your stones, but that’s evidently not how it is for the vast majority who you paint as such.
:lol: when I don't have an absolute opinion on a complex player like Xhaka I'm a fence sitter

When I openly state Arteta isn't for me, I am creating divides.

In any case I wasn't here to throw stones just merely pointing out Arteta is a lifetime away from Wenger when talking about developing young talent. Abou has dodgy opinions on footy anyways, not sure why I bothered.

But whatever @Sweet 'n' Sour , enjoy whatever it is you think you're seeing.
 

Blood on the Tracks

AG's best friend, role model and mentor.
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Rice
If you want to praise Arteta, then just praise Arteta.

When it comes to development of young talent and using average players at the highest level and making them work - not many people in world football are speaking to Wenger, let alone Arteta.

Ox hasn't done jack spit in a Liverpool shirt except Rondo's in training, he's been injured and a bench player. All this reaching to discredit Wenger is embarrassing.

To be fair, I don't think too many are trying to outright discredit Wenger. It's just becomes tiresome when it comes down to people saying 'Wenger would have done...' or 'Wenger finished in x place and still got hammered by the fans or sacked' as a way to get at Arteta.

Yeah, Wenger was mistreated and judged unfairly. There's nothing that can be done about it now. Thinking Arteta isn't good enough and should be sacked is perfectly reasonable, holding Wenger as the benchmark to judge Arteta by isn't though. He's the number 1/ 2 manager in the club history.

The way opinions around Wenger in the fanbase have swung the past 3-4 years is crazy anyway.

I remember getting really frustrated when fans were going at him the last 2-3 years of his career here, it was way over the top and vitriolic and crossed the line. He was blamed for absolutely everything. The majority were squarely against him continuing.

Now it's swung totally the other way, fans aren't remembering the legitimate flaws and issues Wenger had, particularly in his later years. He's the great manager again who could do no wrong. It's nostalgia and romanticising the past because the present isn't looking great.

If we weren't sat in 11th in the table, there wouldn't be this level of romanticising Wenger, particularly in his later years, I'm certain of it, and I say that as a massive Wenger lover.
 
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