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Joe Willock: The True Joerdie

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Iceman10

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Technical players aren’t expensive.

For example:

Just 20m. We could have bought x3 of this kind of player instead of a Auba who is bad on the ball.

Are you high right now? How old is this player? This would be your difference maker for next season?
 

Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
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Technical players aren’t expensive.

For example:

Just 20m. We could have bought x3 of this kind of player instead of a Auba who is bad on the ball.

Yeah but I doubt a 17 year old Brazilian is scoring 50 goals in only 79 games which is a club record.
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
Yeah but I doubt a 17 year old Brazilian is scoring 50 goals in only 79 games which is a club record.
I have said it more than once, it’s not about scoring.
This is what I have posted in the auba thread, read and you will understand:

Just look at how Citi plays. They have a team of creative players. It does not matter who is finishing the chances, because if you create enough of them, your team WILL score a lot of goals.

Citi could have anyone playing the striker role, could be KDB or anyone, and the striker don’t even have to score a lot. The main point is, their whole team is creating plenty of chances. The rest just comes down to having anyone to simply get into the box at the end and tap-in an easy goal.

We need a skillful striker, someone like Suarez/Firmino/Van Persie/Sanchez, or can be a Ødegaard with better finishing (you know what I mean). Someone who could work well with other technical players in the team. Auba, Nketiah or even Laca, are too much of a poacher to me. They are not skillful enough.

Having Auba on the pitch means one player down in the build up, meaning less possession, less chances created, more possession lost, more opportunities for the opponent to counter attack.

In other words, if auba plays, we will struggle to create chances, simply because we have one less creative player on the pitch playing against the same number of opponent defenders. And more importantly, it does not only reduce the number of chances we create, the quality of our chances will also be lowered (having 4 creative players vs a block of defenders, is very different to having 5 creative players against a block of defenders).

I would rather have the above mentioned striker scoring no goals for the season, than a 30 goals Auba. Because it means we would have a much more dangerous attacking force as a team.

People have been asking why Auba was not scoring enough. They asked how many goals would Pepe score this season. They compare the scoring stats of Laca to strikers in other teams........

These questions doesn’t mean much to me. In fact, it’s not just down to the individual performance of the player you questioned. It’s not about if their finishing is/isn’t on spot, or if they have/haven’t scored a lot. It doesn’t matter. If your team have created enough chances, your attacking players WILL score.

It’s the fact that we do not have enough creative talent in the team, which has limited the quantity and quality of chances we created. So my criticism is not that these players are not performing (on an individual level), but rather, they are not a creative player so they have limited our chance creation.

There are only few moments in a match that a striker would score goals. How about the other 87 minutes? Being useless in those minutes?

Strikers are also responsible for creating overload, making good combination passing play in the build up, dribbling defenders to create your own space/chance...basically creating possession/chances, and also helping with pressing if needed.

Auba is a great goal scorer, but he is useless in the other 87 minutes. Having a better footballer in the team instead of auba, who would contribute in those minutes would massively improve the quality/quantity of our chance creation.

There is no place for poacher in modern football. What’s the point of having a great goal scorer but he is useless in the remaining 87 minutes? Why not having someone who could contribute a lot in the build up while also good at finishing? (I know these players comes expensive, but my point is, modern football demand strikers to be more than just scoring goals).
Football is more than just doing nothing for the 87 minutes, and then make a great final pass/finish a great goal.

In these minutes, you have to

1) get the team from your own box to the half way line
2) from the half way line to the opponent box
3) finding a way to break down the opponent defence
4) to pass the ball into the 6 yard box with your striker unmarked.
5) finish the chance

Without 1) to 4), how could you possibly going to get 5)?

Look at how we struggle to even get across the half way line against liverpool. We need more technical/skillful players in the team, with better passing ability, close control.....in order to complete 1) to 4), creating chances after chances.

Having auba and laca on the pitch is like 2 man down in that process, that’s why we failed to create anything.

I was against the signing of auba, laca and Özil back then. And never liked Nketiah. Simply because they are the type of players who are only good at 5) (near the final stage of getting the goal). But they are completely useless in the other 87 minutes. We need more Sanchez, Van Persie, Cazorla, Nasri, Hleb, Fabregas, Arshavin, Rosicky.....who would make huge impact in creating space/possession/chances/break down opponent’s defence, before we arrived the opponent box.

After all, it’s not just about finishing. Just look at City. If you have enough creative players to create plenty of high quality chances, you just need anyone to get into the box to make an easy tap-in. They don’t have to be world class finishers. Auba in the team is limiting the quantity and quality of our chance creation, simply because we are one man down in the build up/chance creation process, we are less capable to break a solid defence down.
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
Are you high right now? How old is this player? This would be your difference maker for next season?
I just want to replace all non-technical players with technical players. If the process is done, our results on the pitch will get better, the football will get better, because we will have a group of good footballer.
To bring back the beautiful Arsenal, we need more technical players. We have less and less of these players over the years. I have waited 10 years for us to ship out all our non-technical players and play beautiful entertaining football again. I am still waiting.
 
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Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
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I have said it more than once, it’s not about scoring.

Who puts the ball in the net for us if we have 11 tappy technicians?

The striker who can do it all isn’t really putting Arsenal at the top of his list after finishing 10th though.

We have to buy imperfect players and try and get the most out of them. Expecting us to emulate City is just unrealistic.
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
Who puts the ball in the net for us if we have 11 tappy technicians?

The striker who can do it all isn’t really putting Arsenal at the top of his list after finishing 10th though.

We have to buy imperfect players and try and get the most out of them. Expecting us to emulate City is just unrealistic.
First, it’s not emulating City. Entertaining football is our identity.
Second, “tappy technician” is an insult to great footballers. So please don’t use it again.

And you haven’t read. I have said below, if you create plenty of quality chances, you just need to tap in that easy goal, no finishing skills is required.
This is what I have posted in the auba thread, read and you will understand:

Just look at how Citi plays. They have a team of creative players. It does not matter who is finishing the chances, because if you create enough of them, your team WILL score a lot of goals.

Citi could have anyone playing the striker role, could be KDB or anyone, and the striker don’t even have to score a lot. The main point is, their whole team is creating plenty of chances. The rest just comes down to having anyone to simply get into the box at the end and tap-in an easy goal.

We need a skillful striker, someone like Suarez/Firmino/Van Persie/Sanchez, or can be a Ødegaard with better finishing (you know what I mean). Someone who could work well with other technical players in the team. Auba, Nketiah or even Laca, are too much of a poacher to me. They are not skillful enough.

Having Auba on the pitch means one player down in the build up, meaning less possession, less chances created, more possession lost, more opportunities for the opponent to counter attack.

In other words, if auba plays, we will struggle to create chances, simply because we have one less creative player on the pitch playing against the same number of opponent defenders. And more importantly, it does not only reduce the number of chances we create, the quality of our chances will also be lowered (having 4 creative players vs a block of defenders, is very different to having 5 creative players against a block of defenders).

I would rather have the above mentioned striker scoring no goals for the season, than a 30 goals Auba. Because it means we would have a much more dangerous attacking force as a team.

People have been asking why Auba was not scoring enough. They asked how many goals would Pepe score this season. They compare the scoring stats of Laca to strikers in other teams........

These questions doesn’t mean much to me. In fact, it’s not just down to the individual performance of the player you questioned. It’s not about if their finishing is/isn’t on spot, or if they have/haven’t scored a lot. It doesn’t matter. If your team have created enough chances, your attacking players WILL score.

It’s the fact that we do not have enough creative talent in the team, which has limited the quantity and quality of chances we created. So my criticism is not that these players are not performing (on an individual level), but rather, they are not a creative player so they have limited our chance creation.

There are only few moments in a match that a striker would score goals. How about the other 87 minutes? Being useless in those minutes?

Strikers are also responsible for creating overload, making good combination passing play in the build up, dribbling defenders to create your own space/chance...basically creating possession/chances, and also helping with pressing if needed.

Auba is a great goal scorer, but he is useless in the other 87 minutes. Having a better footballer in the team instead of auba, who would contribute in those minutes would massively improve the quality/quantity of our chance creation.

There is no place for poacher in modern football. What’s the point of having a great goal scorer but he is useless in the remaining 87 minutes? Why not having someone who could contribute a lot in the build up while also good at finishing? (I know these players comes expensive, but my point is, modern football demand strikers to be more than just scoring goals).
Football is more than just doing nothing for the 87 minutes, and then make a great final pass/finish a great goal.

In these minutes, you have to

1) get the team from your own box to the half way line
2) from the half way line to the opponent box
3) finding a way to break down the opponent defence
4) to pass the ball into the 6 yard box with your striker unmarked.
5) finish the chance

Without 1) to 4), how could you possibly going to get 5)?

Look at how we struggle to even get across the half way line against liverpool. We need more technical/skillful players in the team, with better passing ability, close control.....in order to complete 1) to 4), creating chances after chances.

Having auba and laca on the pitch is like 2 man down in that process, that’s why we failed to create anything.

I was against the signing of auba, laca and Özil back then. And never liked Nketiah. Simply because they are the type of players who are only good at 5) (near the final stage of getting the goal). But they are completely useless in the other 87 minutes. We need more Sanchez, Van Persie, Cazorla, Nasri, Hleb, Fabregas, Arshavin, Rosicky.....who would make huge impact in creating space/possession/chances/break down opponent’s defence, before we arrived the opponent box.

After all, it’s not just about finishing. Just look at City. If you have enough creative players to create plenty of high quality chances, you just need anyone to get into the box to make an easy tap-in. They don’t have to be world class finishers. Auba in the team is limiting the quantity and quality of our chance creation, simply because we are one man down in the build up/chance creation process, we are less capable to break a solid defence down.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
I just want to replace all non-technical players with technical players. If the process is done, our results on the pitch will get better, the football will get better, because you have a group of good footballer.

If you want to talk about youth recruitment that's ok in another thread. Don't bring up a 17 year old to support an argument that you can buy technical players ready made for PL for low money.
 

Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
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Country: Wales
First, it’s not emulate City. Entertaining football is our identity.
And you haven’t read. I have said below, if you create plenty of quality chances, you just need to tap in that easy goal, no finishing skills is required.

So you want us to go back to the Cesc era teams where we’d leave shooting opportunities on the table because we tried to walk it in?

City don’t need a striker because they have 100M players in every position. If their signings flop they just buy another one.

They're playing a different sport to us.
 

Mrs Bergkamp

Double Dusted
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Willock doesnt need to control midfield. He can almost be a 3rd striker from CM. His potential if he works hard enough would would be prime Delle Alli and Lampard - who was the ultimate goalscoring midfielder.
He can certainly go b2b imo and the EL showcased what he can do. It's all about cohesion and partnerships and how we can reign him in to compliment his partners without stifling the best parts of his game atm.
 

Blood on the Tracks

AG's best friend, role model and mentor.
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Player:Rice
Then how did we get Van Persie, Hleb, Rosicky, Fabregas, Nasri, Arshavin, Cazorla, Sanchez.....?

I'm not even sure why you've added Sanchez and Arshavin to the list. They're not even the sort of players you seem to like. They're not possession based footballers, they're individualistic risk takers. You'd go crazy with how often they would give the ball away. There's a reason Pep kicked Sanchez out of Barca.

I'm not saying that players having good technique isn't important. It's not a prerequisite for every player in the side to have an excellent technique though.

The problem is you are trying to make the subjective appear objective. You love the Guardiola Barca / Man City style of play. That's fine. It's not objectively the 'correct' way to play football though, but you try to make it out to be. It's just your taste.

For example, Tierney has an average technique. His other attributes make him one of the best LB's in the PL though.

You'd have hated Gilberto Silva too, he moved around like a crab and struggled to make a pass longer than 5 yards. He also happened to be one of the best DM's Arsenal have ever had.

Technique isn't the be all and end all. Sure you'd prefer to have it than not, but If you have other attributes an average technique can be masked quite effectively.
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
I'm not even sure why you've added Sanchez and Arshavin to the list. They're not even the sort of players you seem to like. They're not possession based footballers, they're individualistic risk takers. You'd go crazy with how often they would give the ball away. There's a reason Pep kicked Sanchez out of Barca.

I'm not saying that players having good technique isn't important. It's not a prerequisite for every player in the side to have an excellent technique though.

The problem is you are trying to make the subjective appear objective. You love the Guardiola Barca / Man City style of play. That's fine. It's not objectively the 'correct' way to play football though, but you try to make it out to be. It's just your taste.

For example, Tierney has an average technique. His other attributes make him one of the best LB's in the PL though.

You'd have hated Gilberto Silva too, he moved around like a crab and struggled to make a pass longer than 5 yards. He also happened to be one of the best DM's Arsenal have ever had.

Technique isn't the be all and end all. Sure you'd prefer to have it than not, but If you have other attributes an average technique can be masked quite effectively.
Not City, but this.
To bring back the beautiful Arsenal, we need more technical players. We have less and less of these players over the years. I have waited 10 years for us to ship out all our non-technical players and play beautiful entertaining football again. I am still waiting.
 

Blood on the Tracks

AG's best friend, role model and mentor.
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Country: England

Player:Rice
Then how did we get Van Persie, Hleb, Rosicky, Fabregas, Nasri, Arshavin, Cazorla, Sanchez.....?

Also, I'm not knocking the likes of Hleb, Rosicky, Nasri, Cesc, Santi etc. They were really good players for us but none of them were Iniesta, Xavi level players, as Cesc proved in his stint at Barca.

There's a reason why we won very little with those guys in midfield. It was lovely to watch but we'd get steamrollered by very good sides with more physicality and nous about them.

Put a 'Lesser' technical player from your perspective in there like Vieria or Gilberto and they'd have been a far more effective midfield unit.
 

Mrs Bergkamp

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I just want to replace all non-technical players with technical players. If the process is done, our results on the pitch will get better, the football will get better, because we will have a group of good footballer.
We certainly need to improve the technique and what I noticed earlier in the season was that the youth played really well together because they'd all been coached in the same way and had a level of on ball competence that some senior players didn't. What we also need is to add physicality and decent pace to the team as well. It would be nice if each player had all three attributes but on our budget, I doubt we'll be able to afford enough players of that calibre. Willock has 2/3 compared to Elneny who has none and can't get near the ball. Ceballos has 1/3 as has Xhaka. Stick Willock next to Partey with eg Auoar and in a 433, that's a midfield that might be able to control a game and reintroduce goals from midfield. I get the sense that you don't like him but I'd find it odd if you'd rather more of Elneny and Ceballos next season.
 

Football Manager

Copy & Paste Merchant
We certainly need to improve the technique and what I noticed earlier in the season was that the youth played really well together because they'd all been coached in the same way and had a level of on ball competence that some senior players didn't. What we also need is to add physicality and decent pace to the team as well. It would be nice if each player had all three attributes but on our budget, I doubt we'll be able to afford enough players of that calibre. Willock has 2/3 compared to Elneny who has none and can't get near the ball. Ceballos has 1/3 as has Xhaka. Stick Willock next to Partey with eg Auoar and in a 433, that's a midfield that might be able to control a game and reintroduce goals from midfield. I get the sense that you don't like him but I'd find it odd if you'd rather more of Elneny and Ceballos next season.
I would rather have new CM, Buendia will do.
 

Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
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To me a midfield combo of an Ndidi - Partey would be ideal. Both can play out of a press and are phenomenal without the ball.

The dirty work has to be done by someone and you want them to have enough technique where you’re not hoofing it row z every time we get the ball.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
I would rather have new CM, Buendia will do.

We will bring in a new CM this summer, but we shouldn't be extending Elneny or keeping Ceballos. That is therefore two to make up for,, but we likely cannot bring in two 30m CM's because we will need to spend big on an AMC replacement for Özil and a RB replacement for Bellerin that will likely cost 10-15m more than we get for Bellerin. For squad depth we cannot do 30m on sizable wages for every player either, so continuation of development of prospects is still required. I think Azeez can play in some League Cup and Europa group games next season, but probably not much more than that. There is still potential room for a player like Willock in the overall squad.
 

Mrs Bergkamp

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I would rather have new CM, Buendia will do.
Fair enough. Buendia will be the creative midfielder next to Partey. That's a decent pivot in a 4231. Who would you have to partner those two if we switched to 433? You might say Bissouma but let's assume we have no money and have to look within, would you stick with those who've failed or try someone else? Azeez for example will have to step up and find consistency. Are you totally against giving Willock any type of chance? Just curious.
 

Penn_

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Either use him or loan him again, pointless to sell when a good season could add another 10m to his fee.
 
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