Martin Ødegaard: El Capitanø

[scytheavatar]

I don't think Ødegaard is a problem, or will be either. He is soon only 23, and giving good performances already, and is good at most things. Really, he was pretty cheap in today's market.

Like you say, we need a top class striker (maybe who can cover the wing if necessary, and that needs to be a great talent to be able to do that. This could help us not needing to buy so many backup players, and we still have Auba for two years after this one.), and a top class midfielder to partner Partey.

Those two will elevate our team a lot, after that we can look if Ødegaard & ESR will become great or if we need someone.

ESR/Saka/Ødegaard will be a major problem............ playing all 3 is a terrible idea and will never work out. They simply will not score enough goals and it doesn't help that the guy playing in front of them is no longer as reliable as he used to be. 1 of these 3 will have to be dropped for someone who can score goals, and IMHO Ødegaard should be the one. He's the least talented of the 3 and have the lowest ceiling.

 

[blrgooner]

When a player’s had opportunities to influence the game in Arsenal’s favour a number of times during a game and has failed to do so, they are due for criticism. That goes for much of the rest of the team as well, some really, really poor individual performances on the ball that game. Odegaarde, Partey, Tomiyasu and Tierney were all very poor. It’s the reason we ****ed up so many transitions from back to front in the first half.

True. Frankly though looking at some comments here is funny. I seriously think Ode has had as many good performances here as Partey but for some reason one player is considered a world class player and one is criticized after every poor performance.

I also completely disagree with the idea that MO,ESR and Saka can`t play together.I think they can and as a team, we will score goals when we do so. If we are playing against teams where we can get forward more easily, Pepe would be a better option but for big games, MO,ESR and Saka is the combination I would go for.

 

[Haphazard]

ESR/Saka/Ødegaard will be a major problem............ playing all 3 is a terrible idea and will never work out. They simply will not score enough goals and it doesn't help that the guy playing in front of them is no longer as reliable as he used to be. 1 of these 3 will have to be dropped for someone who can score goals, and IMHO Ødegaard should be the one. He's the least talented of the 3 and have the lowest ceiling.

The problem is when no attacking player is doing well the odds are it's mostly down to the sytem which is very predictable and robotic. What is tough is to ascertain how much of the poor form is down to the system and how much it is down to the player.

 

[Maybe]

The problem is when no attacking player is doing well the odds are it's mostly down to the sytem which is very predictable and robotic. What is tough is to ascertain how much of the poor form is down to the system and how much it is down to the player.

We still end up bashing forwards on the forum on a daily basis, which is a bit of a shame really when you look at how strong our forward line is.
Auba, ESR, Saka, Pepe, Ode, and Laca is actually a superb forward line, yet they end up looking worse than promoted Championship clubs.

 

[samspade]

True. Frankly though looking at some comments here is funny. I seriously think Ode has had as many good performances here as Partey but for some reason one player is considered a world class player and one is criticized after every poor performance.

I also completely disagree with the idea that MO,ESR and Saka can`t play together.I think they can and as a team, we will score goals when we do so. If we are playing against teams where we can get forward more easily, Pepe would be a better option but for big games, MO,ESR and Saka is the combination I would go for.

The Ødegaard detractors (myself included) can be vociferous but I would say the large majority of AM think Ødegaard is good and has the potential to be special, imo his supporters produce a lot of excuses for his poor performances and bad patches. Partey needs consistency for his Arsenal chapter to be considered world class but everyone recognises that Partey playing well is crucial to Arsenal functioning.

To me it is simple, Ødegaard is exceptional at one thing, given time he can find an unexpected option, when we have easy possession and space he makes us better and adds variety and unpredictability to our attack. However, he's very slow, very weak, tackling skills are average, he has no right foot, isn't a goal threat and when the opposition are putting us under a lot of pressure (often against big teams but not always), he gets robbed too easily. At the top level, if you want to play as deep Ødegaard does with those physical limitations you really have to be a very special player like Cesc or Platini or Pirlo and he's neither reliable enough on the ball or a varied enough attacking threat to emulate that. So that why I criticise him a lot.

 

[drippin]

The Ødegaard detractors (myself included) can be vociferous but I would say the large majority of AM think Ødegaard is good and has the potential to be special, imo his supporters produce a lot of excuses for his poor performances and bad patches. Partey needs consistency for his Arsenal chapter to be considered world class but everyone recognises that Partey playing well is crucial to Arsenal functioning.

To me it is simple, Ødegaard is exceptional at one thing, given time he can find an unexpected option, when we have easy possession and space he makes us better and adds variety and unpredictability to our attack. However, he's very slow, very weak, tackling skills are average, he has no right foot, isn't a goal threat and when the opposition are putting us under a lot of pressure (often against big teams but not always), he gets robbed too easily. At the top level, if you want to play as deep Ødegaard does with those physical limitations you really have to be a very special player like Cesc or Platini or Pirlo and he's neither reliable enough on the ball or a varied enough attacking threat to emulate that. So that why I criticise him a lot.

I'm not sure where are you pulling that he isn't a goal threat, as he has a very good shot. He's no Özil who can only kick the ball towards the field to bounce it to goal.

Anyway, we have to remember he hasn't even played a full year in EPL, and usually any player is given a year to adjust before attacking them too much.

You really don't rate Ødegaard it seems in almost any aspect, so we'll see.

 

[MikelHadADream]

I think people expect too much from this guy. His time at Sociedad was the only full season he's ever had in a decent league, people make him out to be this experienced player, he really isn't. He should really be receiving as much leeway as Saka and ESR do when people judge them.

Rather than blame Ødegaard for inconsistent performances, blame Arteta and Edu for giving him so much responsibility. Said it in the summer but feel this youth project is as much about giving Arteta and Edu an excuse and something to hide behind as much as it is the long term future of the club.

 

[samspade]

I'm not sure where are you pulling that he isn't a goal threat, as he has a very good shot. He's no Özil who can only kick the ball towards the field to bounce it to goal.

Anyway, we have to remember he hasn't even played a full year in EPL, and usually any player is given a year to adjust before attacking them too much.

You really don't rate Ødegaard it seems in almost any aspect, so we'll see.

I think he’s too limited, I like what he did against Brighton and the first half vs Sp**s tho.

 

[drippin]

I think he’s too limited, I like what he did against Brighton and the first half vs Sp**s tho.

I think Özil for example was much more limited in his later years, when he almost stopped dribbling compared to younger years.

I see Ødegaard as very well rounded player, he can do many things well.

I'll put a disclaimer though that I'm not saying Ødegaard is better than Özil, no. But he has very good potential and could be a much more complete player.

 

[blrgooner]

The Ødegaard detractors (myself included) can be vociferous but I would say the large majority of AM think Ødegaard is good and has the potential to be special, imo his supporters produce a lot of excuses for his poor performances and bad patches. Partey needs consistency for his Arsenal chapter to be considered world class but everyone recognises that Partey playing well is crucial to Arsenal functioning.

To me it is simple, Ødegaard is exceptional at one thing, given time he can find an unexpected option, when we have easy possession and space he makes us better and adds variety and unpredictability to our attack. However, he's very slow, very weak, tackling skills are average, he has no right foot, isn't a goal threat and when the opposition are putting us under a lot of pressure (often against big teams but not always), he gets robbed too easily. At the top level, if you want to play as deep Ødegaard does with those physical limitations you really have to be a very special player like Cesc or Platini or Pirlo and he's neither reliable enough on the ball or a varied enough attacking threat to emulate that. So that why I criticise him a lot.

Well, I think the issue is that you don`t rate the set of skills which Ode brings in.. That`s perfectly reasonable in my opinion though I think and we may just have to agree to disagree there.
The issue is the idea that people give excuses for his poor performances. I don`t really see that. At least there are fewer excuses than someone like Partey. I think every one here said that Ode had a poor performance against Brighton. People are saying that everybody has poor games at times and a young creative player more so which is reasonable IMO. The other two players mentioned in the poll here seem to be having doing much worse than him too ( Which gives an idea of what is possible in the current market at the price point we had access to)

 

[samspade]

Well, I think the issue is that you don`t rate the set of skills which Ode brings in.. That`s perfectly reasonable in my opinion though I think and we may just have to agree to disagree there.
The issue is the idea that people give excuses for his poor performances. I don`t really see that. At least there are fewer excuses than someone like Partey. I think every one here said that Ode had a poor performance against Brighton. People are saying that everybody has poor games at times and a young creative player more so which is reasonable IMO. The other two players mentioned in the poll here seem to be having doing much worse than him too ( Which gives an idea of what is possible in the current market at the price point we had access to)

Care to elaborate on what you think I’m missing? Curious as to your opinion. And what, if anything, is wrong about what I say about the player?

 

[Barry]

The Ødegaard detractors (myself included) can be vociferous but I would say the large majority of AM think Ødegaard is good and has the potential to be special, imo his supporters produce a lot of excuses for his poor performances and bad patches. Partey needs consistency for his Arsenal chapter to be considered world class but everyone recognises that Partey playing well is crucial to Arsenal functioning.

To me it is simple, Ødegaard is exceptional at one thing, given time he can find an unexpected option, when we have easy possession and space he makes us better and adds variety and unpredictability to our attack. However, he's very slow, very weak, tackling skills are average, he has no right foot, isn't a goal threat and when the opposition are putting us under a lot of pressure (often against big teams but not always), he gets robbed too easily. At the top level, if you want to play as deep Ødegaard does with those physical limitations you really have to be a very special player like Cesc or Platini or Pirlo and he's neither reliable enough on the ball or a varied enough attacking threat to emulate that. So that why I criticise him a lot.

Don't agree with everything here, but it's a good post and argument well made imo. My main concern with Ødegaard is end product and ultimately whether he's going to get us enough goals from midfield. That said, players improve - you used the example of Pirlo (one of my favourite ever players). He wasn't doing much at 22, also started further up as an attacking mid before dropping deeper. It can happen.

 

[bergholt]

Ødegaard is only going to be good with good players around him, he's not a De Bruyne who will win games off his own boot.

Unfortunately though the same is true of all of our forwards. They rely on a bunch of other things around them to go right. Laca is probably the best at making things happen but he's not consistent on that front.

Hopefully Ode and ESR and Saka all develop a more proactive side to their game. If that happens then we'll start to get serious results. But until then we're going to have lots of games where we fail to score in open play.

 

[Wrighty4eva]

A little too lightweight for the prem, needs to bulk up.

 

[blrgooner]

Care to elaborate on what you think I’m missing? Curious as to your opinion. And what, if anything, is wrong about what I say about the player?

Well I am not really sure missing is the right word here. But let me tell you what I don`t agree with.

1) I don`t think Ødegaard is exceptional at only one thing and that involves being in lots of space with a lot of time. I think he is good at finding space and more importantly has a good first touch which takes him towards areas of the pitch where he wants to go and because of that, ends up with space. So I think him having space has more to do with his own skillset than the situation in the game itself(Of course he would find it more difficult to find space against Liverpool than Burnley but the fact that he can find space against Burnley is still a skill not too many people have)
2) I don`t think he is very slow or very weak. Speed and strength are not really his core skills but neither are they skills of Saka for example. Both Ode and Saka do have the ability to use their skills to make up for lack of speed and strength on most occasions IMO.
3) Tackling is not his main skill either and that is completely ok considering that he is a creative attacking player. I can`t think of many such players who are good at tackling. He is very hardworking and very good at pressing which is what we need from him.
Also him not having a right foot is also not a problem almost all right footed players don`t "have a left foot" either. I don`t see how it affects our game at all.
4) He does give the ball easily when he is isolated. its not necessarily when he is pressured IMO . Same is the case with every other player we have and almost every other no 10 player in EPL though. The trick is to ensure that our players don`t get isolated. That is something which is more about the team confidence and tactics rather than player skill IMO.
5) He is not exactly a player who will score 15 goals in a season. I think he is a fairly decent goal threat though and its something I am counting on him to improve on. He has already scored with a FK which already should count as an improvement.

Another idea I completely disagree with is that you need to be as good as Cesc or Platini or Pirlo to be effective there. I think he needs to be better than other options we have or could have brought in this season. Considering that the other options can`t even start for teams which are not much better than Arsenal, I think he has done well.
For me, our biggest issue in the past 3 years have been the link between Defense and attack. We brought in 3 last line attackers in 3 years and broke our transfer records each time while not improving on players who could help create chances for them.
I don`t think having a high number of "Goal scorers" in the team directly corresponds to a high number of goals scored by the team. We need a mix of different type of players and that balance was completely off because we had no creative player and nobody who plays between opposition lines after Özil.This is also exactly why I don`t understand the fancy lineups which people posted which did not include a creative midfielder at the start of the season either. I think Ode is the best option we could get for that position. He is not a world class player as yet, but he fits what is required in this team almost perfectly.

 

[samspade]

Well I am not really sure missing is the right word here. But let me tell you what I don`t agree with.

1) I don`t think Ødegaard is exceptional at only one thing and that involves being in lots of space with a lot of time. I think he is good at finding space and more importantly has a good first touch which takes him towards areas of the pitch where he wants to go and because of that, ends up with space. So I think him having space has more to do with his own skillset than the situation in the game itself(Of course he would find it more difficult to find space against Liverpool than Burnley but the fact that he can find space against Burnley is still a skill not too many people have)
2) I don`t think he is very slow or very weak. Speed and strength are not really his core skills but neither are they skills of Saka for example. Both Ode and Saka do have the ability to use their skills to make up for lack of speed and strength on most occasions IMO.
3) Tackling is not his main skill either and that is completely ok considering that he is a creative attacking player. I can`t think of many such players who are good at tackling. He is very hardworking and very good at pressing which is what we need from him.
Also him not having a right foot is also not a problem almost all right footed players don`t "have a left foot" either. I don`t see how it affects our game at all.
4) He does give the ball easily when he is isolated. its not necessarily when he is pressured IMO . Same is the case with every other player we have and almost every other no 10 player in EPL though. The trick is to ensure that our players don`t get isolated. That is something which is more about the team confidence and tactics rather than player skill IMO.
5) He is not exactly a player who will score 15 goals in a season. I think he is a fairly decent goal threat though and its something I am counting on him to improve on. He has already scored with a FK which already should count as an improvement.

Another idea I completely disagree with is that you need to be as good as Cesc or Platini or Pirlo to be effective there. I think he needs to be better than other options we have or could have brought in this season. Considering that the other options can`t even start for teams which are not much better than Arsenal, I think he has done well.
For me, our biggest issue in the past 3 years have been the link between Defense and attack. We brought in 3 last line attackers in 3 years and broke our transfer records each time while not improving on players who could help create chances for them.
I don`t think having a high number of "Goal scorers" in the team directly corresponds to a high number of goals scored by the team. We need a mix of different type of players and that balance was completely off because we had no creative player and nobody who plays between opposition lines after Özil.This is also exactly why I don`t understand the fancy lineups which people posted which did not include a creative midfielder at the start of the season either. I think Ode is the best option we could get for that position. He is not a world class player as yet, but he fits what is required in this team almost perfectly.

I think a weak foot does matter as there are lots of situations where you are forced or it would be best play to use it, it helps you keep the ball under pressure too which I think is related to some of MØ's problems in that regard. It doesn't need to be perfect but it's an asset if it's functional.
I'd also like to highlight Bayern and Liverpool as teams without a traditional 'creative midfielder' but it doesn't stop them cutting people open, they have a lot of players who can put people off balance and that's a big source of chance creation.

Let me ask you a few questions based on your thoughts.

Who in the Arsenal mf+attack do you think he'd win shoulder to shoulder with?
' ' he'd win a foot race against?
' ' he has a superior weak foot to?

 

[drippin]

I think a weak foot does matter as there are lots of situations where you are forced or it would be best play to use it, it helps you keep the ball under pressure too which I think is related to some of MØ's problems in that regard. It doesn't need to be perfect but it's an asset if it's functional.
I'd also like to highlight Bayern and Liverpool as teams without a traditional 'creative midfielder' but it doesn't stop them cutting people open, they have a lot of players who can put people off balance and that's a big source of chance creation.

Let me ask you a few questions based on your thoughts.

Who in the Arsenal mf+attack do you think he'd win shoulder to shoulder with?
' ' he'd win a foot race against?
' ' he has a superior weak foot to?

I would like some more information on what is your overall point in these discussions?

Doesn't need to be a long answer, just wondering as I have missed it after all this text recently.

Not complaining, just want to understand the reason.

 

[samspade]

I would like some more information on what is your overall point in these discussions?

Doesn't need to be a long answer, just wondering as I have missed it after all this text recently.

Not complaining, just want to understand the reason.

Roughly, blrgooner said he didn't think I valued what Ødegaard brings to a team so I asked what he thought those qualities were and what I was wrong about. He elaborated and the post you quote is a little of my response to his along with some questions i believe are pertinent follow ups to his opinion.
My overall position is what it's always been, I think he's too limited to be the answer for Arsenal long term.

 

[drippin]

Roughly, blrgooner said he didn't think I valued what Ødegaard brings to a team so I asked what he thought those qualities were and what I was wrong about. He elaborated and the post you quote is a little of my response to his along with some questions i believe are pertinent follow ups to his opinion.
My overall position is what it's always been, I think he's too limited to be the answer for Arsenal long term.

Okay thanks.

We'll have to see, as like I said, I see him to have good potential to be quite complete midfielder.

Like someone else said, he was the best option we could get now.

He turns 23 in December, and has played in EPL for about half a year, so certainly I'm not going to judge him for a while.

He should have the same period of adjustment as every player coming to EPL, which is about a year or so before judging too much.

And actually I think he has performed quite well thus far for a newcomer young player, and the injury last season did hinder his performances too.

 

[scytheavatar]

Auba, ESR, Saka, Pepe, Ode, and Laca is actually a superb forward line

Bunch of players who are at best "good"............ none of them are anywhere close to being a talisman who is on the level of Sanchez/RVP and can carry our attack on his own. None of our forwards are so good that our opponents needs to fear them and think they can't be stopped. Without at least one of such player we can forget about ever becoming a top 4 team.