Mikel Arteta: Managerial Royalty

[grange]

Why are asking me that? 5th would be bang on par. To get top 4 he’s got to over perform. And to get top 4 every year with Europe as well, and deep cup runs, all with the usual tiredness and injuries that come with that . . , would be special. I’ve been consistent about this since I came to AM. It’s you guys flip flopping, ‘Top 4 is terrible’, ‘Yeah, top 4 is brilliant’. Lol.

I ask you a simple question, you immediately become uncomfortable, and start projecting . I guess you just can't help yourself. Lol.

I asked you for receipts and, after a month of looking, you found one from a season we finished 5th. I'm asking because you aren't as consistent as you claim. Your writing style conveys a condescending view compared to what you're claiming to believe.

 

[Oxeki]

Playing devil's advocate for a bit, AMN was likely promised by management he could go. Was it twice we kept him and just didn't give him the time of day on the pitch?

It's bizarre, man. No one knows what happened behind closed doors but it was criminal not to have at least kept him till the end of the season. Like @2Smokeyy said, I'd have definitely trusted AMN over tavarez in the fullback position. Even, better than that, man could have covered us in midfield in case of injuries to Partey or Xhaka.

If Arteta doesn't fancy him, he could have just taken the 20m from wolves instead of killing the value of a club asset.

Edit: Who make these decisions? Edu or Arteta?

 

[Makingtrax]

I ask you a simple question, you immediately become uncomfortable, and start projecting . I guess you just can't help yourself. Lol.

I asked you for receipts and, after a month of looking, you found one from a season we finished 5th. I'm asking because you aren't as consistent as you claim. Your writing style conveys a condescending view compared to what you're claiming to believe.

Sorry about that bro, I‘ll include more smile emojis. But I am consistent.

 

[14Henry]

As much as I like AMN, I knew it was going to be a recipe for disaster whenever he returned.

Teta knew he couldn’t afford to let him and his ting make him look like the villain with their outbursts on social media, so he shipped him out. He had every right to be disappointed after he got a MOTM performance in midfield against Watford this season then he got dropped for the following game and the one after that.

The lack of options in our squad is all on him as the best managers are able to keep everyone happy regardless of their personality traits and willing to give everyone a fair chance. Just look at how Klopp is managing the likes of Diaz, Jota, Firmino, Salah, Mane and Origi all battling for 3 positions. Of course, success plays a huge part but I haven’t really seen him fall out with any of his players.

It's easier keeping say 5/6 players happy enough at a club like Liverpool who are challenging on every front. If they had 60 games in a season and you're say Firmino/Jota who tend to get rotated abit more than the others you'd probably be happy with 30-35 appearances.

It's same at City.

 

[El Duderino]

It's bizarre, man. No one knows what happened behind closed doors but it was criminal not to have at least kept him till the end of the season. Like @2Smokeyy said, I'd have definitely trusted AMN over tavarez in the fullback position. Even, better than that, man could have covered us in midfield in case of injuries to Partey or Xhaka.

If Arteta doesn't fancy him, he could have just taken the 20m from wolves instead of killing the value of a club asset.

Edit: Who make these decisions? Edu or Arteta?

Both do. In AMN specific case it think there was a promise made to the player going by what the manager and AMN said.

If he kept him and didn't play him we'd be talking about that. The only thing I wished we'd done different is kept him until the end of the winter window so we could work on deals.

I'm glad he left, lad deserves to have a shot on restarting his career after the club stalled on him when he was getting call ups with England.

 

[El Duderino]

As much as I like AMN, I knew it was going to be a recipe for disaster whenever he returned.

Teta knew he couldn’t afford to let him and his ting make him look like the villain with their outbursts on social media, so he shipped him out. He had every right to be disappointed after he got a MOTM performance in midfield against Watford this season then he got dropped for the following game and the one after that.

The lack of options in our squad is all on him as the best managers are able to keep everyone happy regardless of their personality traits and willing to give everyone a fair chance. Just look at how Klopp is managing the likes of Diaz, Jota, Firmino, Salah, Mane and Origi all battling for 3 positions. Of course, success plays a huge part but I haven’t really seen him fall out with any of his players.

I agree with some of this, specifically the bit about knowing how to keep most players happy.

But it's not that I think Mikel didn't want to be a villain, look at Auba, he doesn't care if he has to put the PR machine to work.

Letting him go was just the right thing to do.

Like @Macho keeps saying, rather they both talk it out and the player gets a Chance away from the club than having to keep quiet and on the bench like Pepe

 

[2Smokeyy]

It's easier keeping say 5/6 players happy enough at a club like Liverpool who are challenging on every front. If they had 60 games in a season and you're say Firmino/Jota who tend to get rotated abit more than the others you'd probably be happy with 30-35 appearances.

It's same at City.

We had cup games that he could have given these players a chance to but instead of giving someone like Saliba a chance, he opted for a Mustafi or Kolasinac ahead of him. What does that do for a players confidence?

It’s the same for AMN, he was MOTM in one of our PL games this season but he didn’t get a fair chance to build on his confidence. How do you expect a player to get thrown into the deep end when just by that action it shows you don’t trust them?

Anyways, I just used Liverpool as an example but it’s not like AMN is at the same level of those players you’ve mentioned. The likes of Firmino, Jota and even those other players on City’s bench would walk into any of the other 18 teams in the PL but those managers clearly know how to manage a squad, something that Arteta lacks in. Success does play a huge part but I don’t think it’s everything. How did Arsène Wenger manage the squad below and keep them happy? Since we did have a much better squad than we have at this current time:

 

[14Henry]

We had cup games that he could have given these players a chance to but instead of giving someone like Saliba a chance, he opted for a Mustafi or Kolasinac ahead of him. What does that do for a players confidence?

It’s the same for AMN, he was MOTM in one of our PL games this season but he didn’t get a fair chance to build on his confidence. How do you expect a player to get thrown into the deep end when just by that action it shows you don’t trust them?

Anyways, I just used Liverpool as an example but it’s not like AMN is at the same level of those players you’ve mentioned. The likes of Firmino, Jota and even those other players on City’s bench would walk into any of the other 18 teams in the PL but those managers clearly know how to manage a squad, something that Arteta lacks in. Success does play a huge part but I don’t think it’s everything. How did Arsène Wenger manage the squad below and keep them happy? Since we did have a much better squad than we have at this current time:

A lot of young players there and players who knew the person starting over them was superior by some distance.

 

[2Smokeyy]

I agree with some of this, specifically the bit about knowing how to keep most players happy.

But it's not that I think Mikel didn't want to be a villain, look at Auba, he doesn't care if he has to put the PR machine to work.

Letting him go was just the right thing to do.

Like @Macho keeps saying, rather they both talk it out and the player gets a Chance away from the club than having to keep quiet and on the bench like Pepe

Definitely. I backed him during both of his loan spells and really wanted him to succeed, so he could secure a move away from the club but looking back at it, if we don’t manage to get top 4 this season Teta has to take the full blame for leaving the squad thin mid season.

I get where @Macho is coming from and I respect players for having ambition but for me, I can’t let Teta off for that one. It’s criminal how thin our squad is because he’s not willing compromise or slightly deflate his massive ego for the better of our season.

 

[Riou]

Making sure he is sitting next to the Community Shield.

Even back then, Arteta knew what was up!

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

AMN isn't much of a loss to me to be honest.

If he wanted to be a RB maybe I'd think differently but he's a very middling CM.

I guess he could have been okay as a utility player in the squad but it looks like he wanted to be playing more regularly in his preferred position. Which is fair enough.

Auba is definitely the one that could have been useful to still have around.

 

[2Smokeyy]

A lot of young players there and players who knew the person starting over them was superior by some distance.

It’s not like Arteta wasn’t able to do the same last summer. He had the keys to the city to bring him some old heads but decided to fill the squad with kids that wouldn’t question any of his decisions. He’s clearly shaped the squad with players that will cross their legs and raise their hands when he asks a question.

I get your point but how do you explain AMN getting a MOTM performance then getting hooked out in the following game? If you fail to trust players, can you expect them to stick around or step in and perform when you need them?

I remember AW threw Maitland Niles at fullback at the San Siro against AC Milan and he repaid his faith. At the time, this is what he had to say about him:

"Me personally, he's a very trusting person. He has a lot of belief in his players and whenever you want to talk to him about something his door's always open - you can always walk in.

"Especially on the training pitch, he does put his arm around you when he thinks, 'Look, I need to get into this player and tell him in a nice way how he needs to improve on this and that', and it gives you a lot of confidence that the boss believes in you.

"You could talk to him about anything. He's such a loving guy, he treats every player as family.

"It depends how open you are as well to go and speak to him. It's almost like he can be your dad, but he's your coach at the same time, so he's giving you that push in both areas."

I remember Wayne Rooney saying the same about how Alex Ferguson would do same by putting an arm around the likes of Ronaldo and Nani but because Rooney had a slightly different personality, he’d use another approach to get him fired up.

The best managers can handle various egos in the dressing room.

 

[2Smokeyy]

AMN isn't much of a loss to me to be honest.

If he wanted to be a RB maybe I'd think differently but he's a very middling CM.

I guess he could have been okay as a utility player in the squad but it looks like he wanted to be playing more regularly in his preferred position. Which is fair enough.

Auba is definitely the one that could have been useful to still have around.

I know people want to defend Arteta but come on, let’s be realistic here. I’m certain you would have been a lot more comfortable had AMN been available to step in to cover Xhaka, Partey, Tierney or Tomiyasu. With the injuries we’ve had to those players, he would have had more than enough games to step in and cover had Arteta given him a fair chance.

Like I already said, his last game he started for us in the PL the lad got a MOTM performance in midfield, so I think he would have been able to build some form off of that had he been given a “fair” chance.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

I know people want to defend Arteta but come on, let’s be realistic here. I’m certain you would have been a lot more comfortable had AMN been available to step in to cover Xhaka, Partey, Tierney or Tomiyasu. With the injuries we’ve had to those players, he would have had more than enough games to step in and cover had Arteta given him a fair chance.

Like I already said, his last game he started for us in the PL the lad got a MOTM performance in midfield, so I think he would have been able to build some form off of that had he been given a “fair” chance.

I joined up to this forum to vociferously complain about us potentially selling AMN to Wolves, so it's not like he's a player I dislike or anything.

When he stopped wanting to be a specialist RB I lost interest in him to be honest.

I just don't rate him as a CM. I don't see him being any better there than a Sambi or Elneny really. Maybe I'm underrating him, I don't know.

As a John O'Shea type utility player I'd have been fine with him staying I guess but I don't think that was really what he wanted for his career.

 

[Riou]

Arteta... "I want you to be Arsenal's John O'Shea"

Niles...

 

[Penn_]

AMN is still seen as our saving grace in midfield, despite being overlooked by multiple managers.

 

[2Smokeyy]

I joined up to this forum to vociferously complain about us potentially selling AMN to Wolves, so it's not like he's a player I dislike or anything.

When he stopped wanting to be a specialist RB I lost interest in him to be honest.

I just don't rate him as a CM. I don't see him being any better there than a Sambi or Elneny really. Maybe I'm underrating him, I don't know.

As a John O'Shea type utility player I'd have been fine with him staying I guess but I don't think that was really what he wanted for his career.

Fair play, I didn’t realise that.

Likewise, I’ve always been a fan of AMN but I managed to watch those games whilst he was at WBA and it solidified my stance that he’s more than capable of performing in midfield. For me, he was impressing me as much as Conor Gallagher who has really took his game to the next level.

I’ll be honest, I was happy for him that he secured a move away so he could turn things around but the timing wasn’t great, had we let him leave during the summer, I wouldn’t have had any issue whatsoever but we decided to keep him around and failed to bring in adequate cover during the January window once he left.

For me, I would have just kept him around and just let him leave in the summer. Same thing with Auba too.

AMN is still seen as our saving grace in midfield, despite being overlooked by multiple managers.

Not sure if this is a serious post but credit for picking up A-M’s greatest skill set in paraphrasing.

 

[SA Gunner]

Because they have a genuine world class manager but we don't even know what we yet.

Time for some long-ish analysis, get ready.

How can you not know what type of manager we have yet? Because of absolute outcomes and money spent by our manager? Or is there something else?

For the purpose of this analysis, I will look at spend mainly. Touching a bit on process, although not much.

Lets take the world class manager, Klopp, you refer to, and look at his actual spending and building of his elite team.

By the way... I think this is an interesting insight into what it takes to be an elite manager. Its not an attack on you @Oxeki. I do think you ask an interesting question thus I have taken some time to do this.

And for the record, net spend doesnt diminish the actual amount of money buying players IMO. Monies recovered doesnt make the players bought play better. In fact, monies recovered has nothing to do with the manager anymore. Looking at you @Makingtrax

My conclusions from this brief analysis. To be rated as an elite manager, and build and elite team, you need two key ingredients...

• Time to build your elite team, with your players.
• Money to build your elite team, with your players.

Looking at Klopp v Arteta re the above two factors, I can see Klopp's experience shine through, with the delivery of the Champions League in under 4 years. For the shambles Liverpool were when he came in, that is magnificent management. And yes, SAS + Coutinho was not a complete Liverpool team.

A second conclusion I draw from this, is how Klopp methodically built his side, having a continued process from start to "finish". Arteta on the other hand stopped and started during his time here, another sign of his inexperience.

A third conclusion. I also think that this shows we should be retiring this chequebook manager argument that is popular around this forum. Every successful manager today is a chequebook manager of some sort.

A fourth conclusion. Look at the money spent and league position attained. 8th to 4th in his first full season for under 64 million is class. Klopp then spent just under 159 million and went from 4th to 4th from end 17 to end 18. Then he spent another 161 million to go from 4th to 2nd from end 18 to end 19. Imagine if he was the Arsenal manager with those returns

A fifth conclusion... this analysis is incomplete in that it only compares what Klopp has spent to get Liverpool to the very top. He is a chequebook manager as well yes, BUT its important that his figures be compared with other big spenders in the game. That will give us more perspective on how effective he has been in the market, in comparison to others.

Also, very important... this analysis is not done in defense of "my hero Arteta". Far from that. I think we need to be honest with ourselves and our feelings towards the manager. Its absolutely ok to say you dont like the dude and that's your reason to have him gone, and that's it.

I think lets not look for excuses here about Arteta being a chequebook manager, doesnt know how to manage players, gives players away, etc. Pep wastes money on players, and if I dig enough Im sure Ill find Klopp doing the exact same thing. Another high profile example of a possible waste of money - Tuchel and Lukaku.

Anyway, lets go.

Sourced from Jurgen Klopp's list of LFC transfers

Jurgen Klopp

Liverpool, 8 October 2015 - present (6 years, 5 months and 30 days)

Trophies won

Competition won	Season	Money spent (running total)	Time from appointment
Champions League	2018/19	388,850,000	3 yrs, 7 mon, 25 days
Super Cup	2019	388,850,000	3 yrs, 10 mon, 7 days
FIFA CWC	2019	388,850,000	4 yrs, 2 mon, 14 days
Premier League	2019/20	401,900,000	4 yrs, 7 mon, 24 days
EFL Cup	2021/22	549,050,000	6 yrs, 4 mon, 20 days

Summary of money spent, total £549,050,000

Season	League position finished	Season spend	Running total spend
2015/16	8th	5,400,000	5,400,000
2016/17	4th	63,900,000	69,300,000
2017/18	4th	158,000,000	227,300,000
2018/19	2nd	161,550,000	388,850,000
2019/20	1st	13,050,000	401,900,000
2020/21	2nd	76,150,000	478,050,000
2021/22	TBC	71,000,000	549,050,000

Detail of transfers below, for audit purposes.

Spoiler

43 Players Bought: £549,050,000

I've added the season at the end to help with season spend and running total spend.

PLAYER​	FROM	FEE	DATE	SEASON
Marko Grujić	Red Star Belgrade	£5,100,000	6th Jan, 2016	2015/16
Kamil Grabara	Ruch Chorzow	£300,000	15th Jan, 2016	2015/16
Sadio Mane	Southampton	£30,000,000	28th Jun, 2016	2016/17
Loris Karius	Mainz 05	£4,700,000	1st Jul, 2016	2016/17
Joel Matip	Schalke 04	£0	1st Jul, 2016	2016/17
Liam Millar	Fulham	£0	1st Jul, 2016	2016/17
Ragnar Klavan	FC Augsburg	£4,200,000	20th Jul, 2016	2016/17
Alex Manninger	Free agent	£0	22nd Jul, 2016	2016/17
Georginio Wijnaldum	Newcastle United	£25,000,000	22nd Jul, 2016	2016/17
Nat Phillips	Bolton	£0	1st Aug, 2016	2016/17
Mohammed Salah	AS Roma	£34,000,000	22nd Jun, 2017	2017/18
Dominic Solanke	Chelsea	£6,000,000	1st Jul, 2017	2017/18
Jack Bearne	Notts County	£0	1st Jul, 2017	2017/18
Andy Robertson	Hull City	£8,000,000	21st Jul, 2017	2017/18
Vitezslav Jaros	Slavia Prague	£0	1st Aug, 2017	2017/18
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain	Arsenal	£35,000,000	31st Aug, 2017	2017/18
Yasser Larouci	Le Havre	£0	1st Nov, 2017	2017/18
Virgil van Dijk	Southampton	£75,000,000	1st Jan, 2018	2017/18
Tony Gallacher	Falkirk	£0	1st Jan, 2018	2017/18
Fabinho	AS Monaco	£39,300,000	28th May, 2018	2018/19
Naby Keïta	RB Leipzig	£52,500,000	1st Jun, 2018	2018/19
Bobby Duncan	Manchester City	£0	1st Jun, 2018	2018/19
Isaac Christie-Davies	Chelsea	£0	1st Jul, 2018	2018/19
Xherdan Shaqiri	Stoke City	£13,500,000	13th Jul, 2018	2018/19
Alisson Becker	AS Roma	£56,250,000	19th Jul, 2018	2018/19
Ki-Jana Hoever	Ajax	£0	1st Aug, 2018	2018/19
Billy Koumetio	Orleans FC	£0	1st Aug, 2018	2018/19
Ben Winterbottom	Blackburn Rovers	£0	30th Mar, 2019	2018/19
Sepp van den Berg	PEC Zwolle	£1,800,000	1st Jul, 2019	2019/20
Harvey Elliott	Fulham	£4,000,000	28th Jul, 2019	2019/20
Adrián	Free agent	£0	5th Aug, 2019	2019/20
Andy Lonergan	Free agent	£0	12th Aug, 2019	2019/20
Takumi Minamino	Red Bull Salzburg	£7,250,000	1st Jan, 2020	2019/20
Joe Hardy	Brentford	£0	5th Jan, 2020	2019/20
Melkamu Frauendorf	Hoffenheim	£0	1st Aug, 2020	2020/21
Kostas Tsimikas	Olympiacos	£11,750,000	10th Aug, 2020	2020/21
Thiago Alcantara	Bayern Munich	£20,000,000	18th Sep, 2020	2020/21
Diogo Jota	Wolves	£41,000,000	19th Sep, 2020	2020/21
Marcelo Pitaluga	Fluminese	£1,800,000	9th Oct, 2020	2020/21
Ben Davies	Preston North End	£500,000	1st Feb, 2021	2020/21
Kaide Gordon	Derby County	£1,100,000	1st Feb, 2021	2020/21
Ibrahima Konaté	RB Leipzig	£36,000,000	28th May, 2021	2021/22
Luis Diaz	Porto	£35,000,000	30th Jan, 2022	2021/22

 

[14Henry]

It’s not like Arteta wasn’t able to do the same last summer. He had the keys to the city to bring him some old heads but decided to fill the squad with kids that wouldn’t question any of his decisions. He’s clearly shaped the squad with players that will cross their legs and raise their hands when he asks a question.

I get your point but how do you explain AMN getting a MOTM performance then getting hooked out in the following game? If you fail to trust players, can you expect them to stick around or step in and perform when you need them?

I remember AW threw Maitland Niles at fullback at the San Siro against AC Milan and he repaid his faith. At the time, this is what he had to say about him:



I remember Wayne Rooney saying the same about how Alex Ferguson would do same by putting an arm around the likes of Ronaldo and Nani but because Rooney had a slightly different personality, he’d use another approach to get him fired up.

The best managers can handle various egos in the dressing room.

Na AMN is no loss.

Id probably have Elneny above him in CM and that's saying something. One man of the match performance doesn't eclipse years of average performance.

And look, he's doing nothing at Roma.

It's all worthless talking about decisions now and had we won and Partey hadn't got injured we probably wouldn't be here talking now.

But I always thought we were a couple or injuries away from falling away from top 4. And that's what is likely to happen in my opinion. We have 3 players going to miss at least 3 or 4 games. Another one or two and we have a huge fight for EL.

Which although was expected this season would still be disappointing and make us weaker going into next season.

 

[2Smokeyy]

Na AMN is no loss.

Id probably have Elneny above him in CM and that's saying something. One man of the match performance doesn't eclipse years of average performance.

And look, he's doing nothing at Roma.

Big deal. Loan spells sometimes don’t work, maybe his style of play is more suited to the PL? He seemed to be doing perfectly well at WBA whilst he was on loan there, so I don’t think that’s a point you can use to write him off.

That part in bold just goes to show what you know, so I won’t even bother explaining myself here.