Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[Camus]

These discussions just aren't precise enough. We need to specify what time period we are talking about when we discuss goal posts, success and failure. It's a fact that AM have shifted the goalposts since the start of the season. Many have bristled at the statement 'you'd have taken 5th at the start of the season' as they believe circumstances have changed, which is true: to have a sensible discussion about the future, the goalposts can and must be shifted as one gains more information about the progress of an endeavour. But when we go to review the season as a whole it should be as a whole.

What's missing is the recognition that the statement 'Is 5th failure given nothing has happened' and the statement 'Is 5th failure given we are x points clear with eight games to go' are different, the first can be false and simultaneously the second true. We are finishing 5th in a season where it takes a fairly normal amount of points to finish 4th, if we agreed that that performance over a thirty-eight-game period wasn't failure at the start of the season we should agree it's not failure now, but, as I said, the question of whether the last 8 games were a failure given what has come before is a different one. With Arteta being the manager and in the thick of the action, it's quite reasonable for him to think of the top four as the target with eight games to go given what has gone before, and then when the season is over, to consider it as a whole with the target being 6th.

In my opinion, the season has had a number of successes and failures and the thirty-eight-game sum is a decent season, nothing more or less.

The perception of success and is also determined by the quality of the opposition teams around you and how well you also perform individually.

As an example, our 2007/08 is a good illustration of this. We weren't that far removed at all from being PL winners so I still viewed our ambitions are very much in that orbit, but they had been seriously tapered by us being totally established as not being able to compete financially at all and us being a 4th place team for a few years on the trot. So if at the start of the season someone told us we weren't going to win the PL I doubt too many would have called it an outright failure.

But ultimately we "bottled" the PL that season given how make weeks we topped the table and that disaster run of draws in Feb-March against pitiful teams. It was a failure. But looking at the season as a whole we played some absolutely fantastic football, had a number of fantastic individual performances, only lost 3 games (2 of them away to Chelsea and United and by very narrow margins) and finished on a great 83 points (a 15 point improvement on the previous season) only a handful of points behind United and Chelsea who both went on to be CL finalists so arguably the two best teams in world football at the time.

In a situation like that you can try and "cope" (for lack of a better word) with the failure you've just delivered by finding some very obvious positives (not that they mattered in hindsight since we never built on them in subsequent seasons and went on a steady decline instead) and move the goalposts etc..

This season that's not been the case at all. We've consistently played average-to-terrible football, we've been competing against dreadful teams who were tripping over themselves to gift us top 4 and yet we still bottled it despite the advantage we had at one point, I can't point to a single player and say they've had a good individual season that I'm excited for etc.. About the only thing people can use to "cope" is the age of our team, that's virtually it. There's been more negatives the positives this season by my account and therefor overall it's been a bad season.

 

[samspade]

Didn’t really get it tbh.

I'm basically saying that, for instance, you've won your last two games and your aim is to win the third, if you don't then that's a failure. But the perspective where you look at the three games as a whole is quite different and might constitute success.

You can split up time periods in many ways and the goals for those periods can change, even if the endpoint of the time period is the same.

I doubt anyone talked about a cultural reset at Liverpool when Klopp arrived. The only culture/mentality that matters is winning.

That's a culture though, people giving everything they've got to win. Easy for people to get lazy when they're earning loads of cash, you know the Marvin Hagler quote right?

 

[samspade]

The perception of success and is also determined by the quality of the opposition teams around you and how well you also perform individually.

As an example, our 2007/08 is a good illustration of this. We weren't that far removed at all from being PL winners so I still viewed our ambitions are very much in that orbit, but they had been seriously tapered by us being totally established as not being able to compete financially at all and us being a 4th place team for a few years on the trot. So if at the start of the season someone told us we weren't going to win the PL I doubt too many would have called it an outright failure.

But ultimately we "bottled" the PL that season given how make weeks we topped the table and that disaster run of draws in Feb-March against pitiful teams. It was a failure. But looking at the season as a whole we played some absolutely fantastic football, had a number of fantastic individual performances, only lost 3 games (2 of them away to Chelsea and United and by very narrow margins) and finished on a great 83 points (a 15 point improvement on the previous season) only a handful of points behind United and Chelsea who both went on to be CL finalists so arguably the two best teams in world football at the time.

In a situation like that you can try and "cope" (for lack of a better word) with the failure you've just delivered by finding some very obvious positives (not that they mattered in hindsight since we never built on them in subsequent seasons and went on a steady decline instead) and move the goalposts etc..

This season that's not been the case at all. We've consistently played average-to-terrible football, we've been competing against dreadful teams who were tripping over themselves to gift us top 4 and yet we still bottled it despite the advantage we had at one point, I can't point to a single player and say they've had a good individual season that I'm excited for etc.. About the only thing people can use to "cope" is the age of our team, that's virtually it. There's been more negatives the positives this season by my account and therefor overall it's been a bad season.

Your summary of the 2007/08 season is exactly what I'm trying to get at, excellent choice. It's not cope imo, it's reality. That you don't then go and build on something like that doesn't mean the opportunity wasn't there to do so. Liverpool lost five finals in a row with Klopp and I think the way they overcame that adversity is an important part of why they are so resilient now.

The only other thing we really disagree on is of there were good things in this season and I think there were.

 

[Trilly]

I'm basically saying that, for instance, you've won your last two games and your aim is to win the third, if you don't then that's a failure. But the perspective where you look at the three games as a whole is quite different and might constitute success.

You can split up time periods in many ways and the goals for those periods can change, even if the endpoint of the time period is the same.


That's a culture though, people giving everything they've got to win. Easy for people to get lazy when they're earning loads of cash, you know the Marvin Hagler quote right?

Well my point is that the overall result is okay, and the end of season collapse was awful. Which makes the season a poor one overall.

Do you think 5th place while being out of Europe is anything better than okay?

As for the culture stuff, all the cultural reset PR we’ve seen hasn’t lead to much improvement. He’s been resetting the culture since he got here and it’s lead to 8th, 8th and probably 5th. Pointless stuff.

 

[samspade]

Do you think 5th place while being out of Europe is anything better than okay?

It's not much better, but as I've said before I'm not that interested in the difference between 4th, 5th and 6th. I'm more interested in us doing the things I think we need to do to get us moving in the right direction again, long term. As I said, I thought we were in a horrendous state when he took over.

As for the culture stuff, all the cultural reset PR we’ve seen hasn’t lead to much improvement. He’s been resetting the culture since he got here and it’s lead to 8th, 8th and probably 5th. Pointless stuff.

You could be right about Arteta's particular implementation but I think you have to acknowledge that cultures and winning mentalities are built and are important. That's all I was saying. What happens with the Saliba situation is pretty important to me now, my confidence in Arteta could be dented by that.

 

[Garrincha]

Maybe 6th this season could have been ok if we were playing well, not lost 35% of league games & the other five big clubs had their **** in order. But Sp**s have had two new mangers this season & United just gone AWOL.

Unless we turn it round tomorrow Arteta has finished behind Sp**s three seasons in a row & they have had four different managers.

 

[Macho]

Unless we turn it round tomorrow Arteta has finished behind Sp**s three seasons in a row & they have had four different managers.

 

[Baki]

Arteta will not come back from this, young managers rarely do. He’ll have a couple of more 5th and 6th place finishes, and he’ll be let go eventually.

We’re the new Ole and Utd you can say, we’re just dragging this relationship out.

Except Ole was more successful with about the same money spent. He fished 3rd and 2nd over his 2 full seasons.

 

[Trilly]

Absolute madness innit. How do you defend that?

 

[Rex Stone]

The perception of success and is also determined by the quality of the opposition teams around you and how well you also perform individually.

As an example, our 2007/08 is a good illustration of this. We weren't that far removed at all from being PL winners so I still viewed our ambitions are very much in that orbit, but they had been seriously tapered by us being totally established as not being able to compete financially at all and us being a 4th place team for a few years on the trot. So if at the start of the season someone told us we weren't going to win the PL I doubt too many would have called it an outright failure.

But ultimately we "bottled" the PL that season given how make weeks we topped the table and that disaster run of draws in Feb-March against pitiful teams. It was a failure. But looking at the season as a whole we played some absolutely fantastic football, had a number of fantastic individual performances, only lost 3 games (2 of them away to Chelsea and United and by very narrow margins) and finished on a great 83 points (a 15 point improvement on the previous season) only a handful of points behind United and Chelsea who both went on to be CL finalists so arguably the two best teams in world football at the time.

In a situation like that you can try and "cope" (for lack of a better word) with the failure you've just delivered by finding some very obvious positives (not that they mattered in hindsight since we never built on them in subsequent seasons and went on a steady decline instead) and move the goalposts etc..

This season that's not been the case at all. We've consistently played average-to-terrible football, we've been competing against dreadful teams who were tripping over themselves to gift us top 4 and yet we still bottled it despite the advantage we had at one point, I can't point to a single player and say they've had a good individual season that I'm excited for etc.. About the only thing people can use to "cope" is the age of our team, that's virtually it. There's been more negatives the positives this season by my account and therefor overall it's been a bad season.

Disagree on 2007/08.

Finishing a close third behind the greatest PL team of all time and a Chelsea with prime Drogba, Amelia, Cole, Terry, Lampard and Ballack is absolutely not the same as this collapse.

We didn’t even really fall apart. Those losses to Utd and Chelsea that year were absolutely brutal and even the draws against lower sides is something that most years you could get away with.

We just had two of the better teams in PL history above us. Them playing each other in the CL final was no coincidence either.

 

[Trilly]

but as I've said before I'm not that interested in the difference between 4th, 5th and 6th. I'm more interested in us doing the things I think we need to do to get us moving in the right direction again, long term

You’re trying to be unbiased but your mask slipped a bit there, only somebody defending Arteta would say they’re not that interested in something that determines CL v EL football. Especially when you know that CL football is a huge part of what you ultimately want to see.

The main thing we can do to get us moving in the right direction is maximising our limited financial resources and using them to win games. Two things that Arteta is yet to show he can do.

So again, how can you support a man who is the antithesis to what you want for the club?

 

[Baki]

I think because the club have committed to developing him and we are far down the road now.

I know there was big talk when he came in back in 2019, but I think the club knew that would be a chance of having to take extra time to develop him into a manager. They are basically working on extracting that now.

I’d say unless there is a ready made better option to take over, with what’s already been built (Potter perhaps), we won’t see any uprooting and restarting happening. We are not City, Chelsea or United who can just chop and change because of near unlimited resources.

Sunk cost fallacy & the absurd notion that it’s better for a club with our limited resources to continue investing into a failed project because we have limited resources? You do realise that’s the exact opposite of what a club with limited resources should do. As we don’t have the luxury of getting it wrong (because money is limited), it’s better to cut out failed projects as soon as possible as reserve the money for managers that are actually going to be successful for this club, otherwise we’re going to end up in a situation of cutting Mikel far too late and then having no money to back the right manager to turn things around.

 

[Sapient Hawk]

This ****er has pushed this once elite club's expectations far down the toilet that breaching the rim next year will be considered an achievement!

 

[Farzad Stoned]

I think there are a number of reasons-- hate and anger don't have to be involved when you make the reasoned decision that you don't want to support the regime by not purchasing merchandise; only extreme levels of visible, local-to-the-club hate are going to have a big influence on the decision-makers at Arsenal; it's bad for your health; it makes reasoned discussion very difficult (kills critical faculties in general); it spills over on to the people you engage with. It's just not that useful.

I disagree I am not a mindless corner bully looking to gore people. I find that complacency is a human emotional state that in actuality is worse than properly expressed anger. I live in a country where I consider 70 percent of the population at least to be stupid sheep brainwashed by rightwing hate media and the worst public education system who at least since 2016 targets me and my family for daily oppression. No I’ll take rage and anger over complacency and myopia any day, some conduct requires anger, if you don’t respond to certain situations with anger appropriately expressed you only enable your abusers. As long as the Arsenal sheep ba ba for Arteta he will stay as long as he can trick the Kroenke’s into thinking he is a competent manager. Sorry, I live in a state of rage the last 6 years, I don’t swallow peoples bs or tolerate fools gladly, and this fool I am done tolerating.

 

[Makingtrax]

Maybe 6th this season could have been ok if we were playing well, not lost 35% of league games & the other five big clubs had their **** in order. But Sp**s have had two new mangers this season & United just gone AWOL.

Unless we turn it round tomorrow Arteta has finished behind Sp**s three seasons in a row & they have had four different managers.

And the fans thought 20 years of St Totteringham‘s wasn’t good enough. Well they don’t think that now.

 

[Camus]

Your summary of the 2007/08 season is exactly what I'm trying to get at, excellent choice. It's not cope imo, it's reality. That you don't then go and build on something like that doesn't mean the opportunity wasn't there to do so. Liverpool lost five finals in a row with Klopp and I think the way they overcame that adversity is an important part of why they are so resilient now.

The only other thing we really disagree on is of there were good things in this season and I think there were.

Oh yeah there was definitely an opportunity to build on that 2007/08 season, it was just a combination of us not taking it (never buying an improvement on Alumina etc..) and also factors outside of our control like Helb and Flamini leaving and thus completely gutting out mid which was our best and most important area.

Liverpool example isn't apt for us, there's a million different reasons/factors that show that Klopp did more and was faaaar more successful and encouraging with Liverpool in his 1st 6 months-1 year than Arteta has been in 2.5 years here. Only thing the Liverpool comparisons do is further highlight how poor we've been under Arteta in terms of the potential progress we could have made in that timeframe with a manager like Klopp. It's actually extremely depressing.

There were good things this, I agree with you on that. I just think the bad outweighed the good to such a degree that overall it was a bad season. I also don't think any of the good was significant enough for me to hang my hat on it and say it's proof that in the upcoming season we're going to be much better.

 

[samspade]

You’re trying to be unbiased but your mask slipped a bit there, only somebody defending Arteta would say they’re not that interested in something that determines CL v EL football. Especially when you know that CL football is a huge part of what you ultimately want to see.

The main thing we can do to get us moving in the right direction is maximising our limited financial resources and using them to win games. Two things that Arteta is yet to show he can do.

So again, how can you support a man who is the antithesis to what you want for the club?

I’m not trying to be anything, I always give my opinion raw and unfiltered. I’m an inner, I think we’ve had a decent season. It’s merely a basic belief of mine that the best way to guarantee improvement is to focus on the behaviours and practices that lead to success rather than the specific outcome today, success will come as a byproduct. I think that investments in young players are cost effective long term, we vastly reduced the squads wage bill. I like what we’ve done and think it’s likely to lead to 4th place finishes in the future and maybe league titles. That’s it and it’s the last you’ll have from me, I’ve spent enough time on here today.

 

[Haphazard]

And the fans thought 20 years of St Totteringham‘s wasn’t good enough. Well they don’t think that now.

Its an embarrasing thing to celebrate tbh, Arsenal finishing above Sp**s should be standard not celebrated.

 

[RunTheTrap]

That’s a ****ing insult the greatest manager Arsenal has ever had. Who was 2nd in the league when the fans dumped all over him. He never out stayed the welcome of fans who understand football and loved a character, a wit, an attacking genius and a man who combined family values and the art of beautiful football.

Tbf. Wenger staying for as long as he did made things go toxic within the fanbase. It was like a Civil War and YOU had to pick a side. That’s why I felt Wenger overstayed his welcome. It wasn’t entirely his fault, but the constant arguing and viciousness about him made things untenable imo.

 

[Trilly]

I’m not trying to be anything, I always give my opinion raw and unfiltered. I’m an inner, I think we’ve had a decent season. It’s merely a basic belief of mine that the best way to guarantee improvement is to focus on the behaviours and practices that lead to success rather than the specific outcome today, success will come as a byproduct. I think that investments in young players are cost effective long term, we vastly reduced the squads wage bill. I like what we’ve done and think it’s likely to lead to 4th place finishes in the future and maybe league titles. That’s it and it’s the last you’ll have from me, I’ve spent enough time on here today.

I’ve asked you a clear question and you’ve chosen to ignore it despite myself doing the same for you?

You’re boiling it down to “if we keep buying young players we’ll qualify for the CL and win things”. We both know it’s not that simplistic.

I thought we were debating in good faith but I’ve asked one difficult question and thats enough for you today?

It’s this simple:

Due to our limited resources an Arsenal manager has to use our money well (Arteta spends millions rather than learning to manage differing personalities) and even with that they’ll probably have to be a top 2/3 coach in the league.

Do you think Mikel uses our money as well as he could?

Do you think Mikel is or is on the path to be ing a coach good enough to overcome our financial disadvantages?