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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

SA Gunner

Hates Tierney And Wants Him Sold Immediately
Moderator

Country: South Africa

Player:Nketiah
Don’t be like that.

You’ve posted so much crap in this thread I can’t be bothered to refute it, credit to @Rimaal for trying.

The only guy who agrees with you is @grange, that tells you everything.

Not at all.

@A__G delivered a masterclass in critical reasoning with those posts IMO. Something unusual on AM these days. Think most folks here dont bother to take the debate up levels anymore. Its more about taking shots and getting in the laughs... which is also cool by the way as life is hard enough.

Credit to the man, that takes a lot of work and energy.
 

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
See this is an interesting point and you make good points but I disagree overall.

Think football is a simple game and if you want to win you need world class players above anything.

SAF said in his book every season he wanted a top class goalkeeper and striker and he’d figure out the rest.

I don’t think guys he had like John O’Shea or Darren Fletcher were necessarily “winners” compared to Coquelin or Monreal.

The issue was they just had better players in key positions.





Controversial take but Alexis wasn’t a world class player because you couldn’t win the biggest honours with him as your main man.

He wanted to win his way with his crazy solo pressing which looks good to fans but is just going against team instructions.

Key point was that at Barcelona he was a bit part player and once they signed him he threw their balance off. He needed the majority of play to run through him and Guardiola then Tito got frustrated with him.

Also telling that for a major “winner” they couldn’t get it done with him in the team but once they upgraded to Neymar who was a world class player they immediately won the CL.

Great post.

For me in his peak Sanchez was WC, but doesn't make what you said wrong that's a great observation.
 

Rimaal

Mesmerised By Raccoons
Trusted ⭐
Wenger’s earlier teams policed themselves, players like Vieira and Ray Parlour have said as much. That worked with a certain generation of players, but not the latter years Emirates group. It doesn’t meant Wenger can’t man-manage, Vieira said as well that the trust he put in players was simultaneously his biggest strength and weakness.

If players take advantage of that freedom it’s their problem, not the manager.

Please stop. Read what you're saying. You are saying that unless Wenger had players who were capable of policing themselves then he could not manage them well because he couldn't be arsed! You are basically accusing him of being a failure as a man manager and a coach. Are you fecking serious?!!

Did you ever rate Wenger at all? Or were you just going with the flow? Because according to you he deserves no credit whatsoever for the Invincibles & his 20 years in the CL because it was all down to the disciplined, regimented, dedicated efforts of heroic players.

Listen to yourself ffs.
 

A_G

Rice Rice Baby 🎼🎵
A-M CL Draft Campeón 🏆
Please stop. Read what you're saying. You are saying that unless Wenger had players who were capable of policing themselves then he could not manage them well because he couldn't be arsed! You are basically accusing him of being a failure as a man manager and a coach. Are you fecking serious?!!

Did you ever rate Wenger at all? Or were you just going with the flow? Because according to you he deserves no credit whatsoever for the Invincibles & his 20 years in the CL because it was all down to the disciplined, regimented, dedicated efforts of heroic players.

Listen to yourself ffs.
Why would “listen to myself” when everything in bold is projection from you? No point in discussing this if you’re just going to post reductionist waffle.
 

Entropics

Established Member

Country: Colombia

Player:Saka
Do you not understand what I said @Entropics ?

I can dumb it down if you'd like, PM me.

Don't worry the post is already dumb, like that entire discussion

The discussion is at the level of that droopy guy talking about Raphinha and Pepe in the transfer thread, the only differences are that AnthonyG is a moderator and Gary kept throwing jokes, nothing else.

At this point AG doesn't even know what he's arguing anymore.
 

jones

Captain Serious
Trusted ⭐
I guess I just imagined the 17/18 squad downing tools in the second half of the season.
I don't fully disagree with your notion of issues towards the end of Wenger's reign, being at the helm of an institution for 20+ years you get weary as do others of you, especially with all the failures and heartbreaks that came along the way.

You had dickheads like RVP and his letter, Cesc going on strike, later absolute jokers like Ox taking the piss, the whole British core bollocks. Then Wenger's contract doesn't get extended plus some questionable characters in the squad, the upheaval with Raul Sven Gazidis etc. Allthewhile with little guidance from the top because Stan's useless. Not wrong to say there's been some issue with the culture, players getting top level wages without the pressure to perform that way.

Where I disagree is with the idea that this is something you have to talk about in order to fix it. Arteta has from day only been in it for himself, if he really wanted to fix it he'd improve the squad and himself to get to a certain level, a healthy culture means you expect the same from yourself as you do from others.

Instead he's surrounded himself with wastemen and interns, no one to challenge or guide him. That and the constant media bombardment of how bad everything was before he came to us like the messiah is why people aren't buying this cultural change bollocks, sure as **** didn't help that they announce one every nine months
 

A_G

Rice Rice Baby 🎼🎵
A-M CL Draft Campeón 🏆
I don't fully disagree with your notion of issues towards the end of Wenger's reign, being at the helm of an institution for 20+ years you get weary as do others of you, especially with all the failures and heartbreaks that came along the way.

You had dickheads like RVP and his letter, Cesc going on strike, later absolute jokers like Ox taking the piss, the whole British core bollocks. Then Wenger's contract doesn't get extended plus some questionable characters in the squad, the upheaval with Raul Sven Gazidis etc. Allthewhile with little guidance from the top because Stan's useless. Not wrong to say there's been some issue with the culture, players getting top level wages without the pressure to perform that way.

Where I disagree is with the idea that this is something you have to talk about in order to fix it. Arteta has from day only been in it for himself, if he really wanted to fix it he'd improve the squad and himself to get to a certain level, a healthy culture means you expect the same from yourself as you do from others.

Instead he's surrounded himself with wastemen and interns, no one to challenge or guide him. That and the constant media bombardment of how bad everything was before he came to us like the messiah is why people aren't buying this cultural change bollocks, sure as **** didn't help that they announce one every nine months
The funny thing is I’ve never actually said Arteta has been successful in changing the culture (although the squad seem to be onboard with him), all I said is that changing the culture of a dressing is a real thing despite people in here objecting to the idea.
 

Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
Trusted ⭐

Country: Wales
Great post.

For me in his peak Sanchez was WC, but doesn't make what you said wrong that's a great observation.

Obviously a very, very good player but the difference between him and the very best is that I think he’d rather rack up 20 goals than actually do what it takes to win.

Neymar and Suarez sacrificed huge parts of their game because they realised play had to go through Messi and it meant that the team could win.

Alexis to me wouldn’t do it. He wouldn’t adapt his game and there’s a reason both him and Cesc were ran out of town and the team immediately elavated.
 
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A_G

Rice Rice Baby 🎼🎵
A-M CL Draft Campeón 🏆
Obviously a very, very good player but the difference between him and the very best is that I think he’d rather rack up 20 goals than actually do what it takes to win.

Neymar and Suarez sacrificed huge parts of their game because they realised play had to Messi and it meant that the team could win.

Alexis to me wouldn’t do it. He wouldn’t adapt his game and there’s a reason both him and Cesc were ran out of town and the team immediately evaluated.
You give him any credit for winning back to back Copa’s?
 

Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
Trusted ⭐

Country: Wales
You give him any credit for winning back to back Copa’s?

Not really. Copa America is a top heavy tournament that you can win if your keeper has two good games against the bigger teams.

Also from memory Brazil totally collapsed in the knockouts against minnows and weren’t their finals against Argentina 0-0 shootouts?

Champions League especially in 11-12 he actively hindered Barca. He’s a footballing Melo. Play has to run solely through him but he’s not good enough to get over the line.
 
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jones

Captain Serious
Trusted ⭐
The funny thing is I’ve never actually said Arteta has been successful in changing the culture (although the squad seem to be onboard with him), all I said is that changing the culture of a dressing is a real thing despite people in here objecting to the idea.
The squad being onboard with him doesn't mean anything, anyone who wasn't got shipped out and the rest either fell in line out of fear for their career or because they're dumb kids.

About culture I can see why some reject the notion of dressing room culture, it's a vacuous term that can be loaded with anything you want. I think it exists but it's very vague and Trilly had it right that any kind of winning culture trumps whatever neo feudal nonsense Arteta has been feeding club and fans in the last 30 months.

Ironically for all the cultural changes, announced alleged or real, that actual non-televised change is yet to happen.
 

A_G

Rice Rice Baby 🎼🎵
A-M CL Draft Campeón 🏆
The squad being onboard with him doesn't mean anything,
We can think the themed lunches etc are corny but if they resonate with the players and build the camaraderie he’s looking for, that’s all that matters. He could’ve been sacked based on results numerous times but the players have kept playing for him at a time when it would’ve been easy to check out mentally.
 

jones

Captain Serious
Trusted ⭐
We can think the themed lunches etc are corny but if they resonate with the players and build the camaraderie he’s looking for, that’s all that matters. He could’ve been sacked based on results numerous times but the players have kept playing for him at a time when it would’ve been easy to check out mentally.
I don't know, we've seen it all before haven't we. RVP captaining the team, wearing his #1 fan shirt, doing team lunches etc.

Also struggle to see how you view both our 18/19 collapse as a dressing room revolt and our current season with several losing streaks as well as the Newcastle match as no such thing.
 

Macho

In search of Pure Profit 💸
Dusted 🔻

Country: England
We can think the themed lunches etc are corny but if they resonate with the players and build the camaraderie he’s looking for, that’s all that matters. He could’ve been sacked based on results numerous times but the players have kept playing for him at a time when it would’ve been easy to check out mentally.
Do you really believe this?

These kids have seen big names shamed and shipped out for nothing, I’d say that had more to do with it than Brazilian day at the canteen.

Emery tried this and it didn’t get the same backing.
 

A_G

Rice Rice Baby 🎼🎵
A-M CL Draft Campeón 🏆
I don't know, we've seen it all before haven't we. RVP captaining the team, wearing his #1 fan shirt, doing team lunches etc.

Also struggle to see how you view both our 18/19 collapse as a dressing room revolt and our current season with several losing streaks as well as the Newcastle match as no such thing.
I didn’t, I thought the start of 19/20 was the beginning of the end for Emery and that’s when the dressing room turned.

The current season is just Arteta not getting the best out of the players at key moments, I don’t think it’s a lack of effort from the players. They’re being coached as well as they should be especially in attack.
 

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