Youri Tielemans

[db10_therza]

If his positioning is awful (which I doubt a bit as he has been so highly rated and has so much experience, plus is a starter for Belgium), then you can put Xhaka as DMF. Tielemans is a huge upgrade to Elneny and Sambi, and there is no guarantee ESR can stay fit, perform at CMF, and we might need him for LW rotation. Vieira is an unknown quality still and needs time to adjust to EPL.

Should also add I only mean positioning in a defensive sense.

Some players smell spaces (Özil). Some smell danger (Gilberto). Some neither (Sambi). Some both (Xhaka).

I think Tielemens is more like Özil when it comes to spaces.

 

[db10_therza]

DM in a tough game defo Elneny. DM against fodder probably Tielemans or Xhaka for me.

This makes sense to me. You’re on a roll trills…

 

[Rasmi]

I think this is one of those cases where stats aren’t telling you the full picture. Tielemens would be a horror show in DM because his positioning is awful. Idk what stats there are that would back this up. It’s one of (if not THE) most important aspects of being a DM. Gilberto Silva is the best example. He wasn’t really elite at anything but his positioning was WC. Tielemens don’t got it. Would much rather have ElNeny in DM. Tielemens is fine as a Xhaka replacement.

But then so is Vieira. Potentially ESR. I’m not sold on this transfer. I do agree that it’s a great opportunity to get a good player for cheap. But he will eat in to our wage bill, which we’ve worked very very hard to sort out. He doesn’t start for me. Idk. I’m not against it, I’m just not frothing at the idea.

It’s much less useful to use stats judging defensive players as you said it doesn’t show positioning. The tackle, heading stats also shows only duels you engage in. At one point this season Martinez from United had the best header won % lol. He is freaking 5’8. He just don’t engage in too many headers, unless he knows he can win them

 

[drippin]

For the rest of the season we can be quite sure that even midtable teams park the bus against us.

So in case of injuries, getting Tielemans to CMF, and Xhaka to DMF instead of Elneny, will give a huge boost to title challenge. Those games are very important, and getting even one goal win is crucial. It can be that one pass that Tielemans can make and Elneny can't.

We need more quality depth.

 

[Alter]

It's Xhaka's best season in Arsenal shirt. Xhaka has 7.00 rating in WhoScored in EPL this season.

Tielemans has 6.97 rating in EPL this season.

So does Xhaka also this season have 1-2 good games out of 10, because the rating in EPL is almost identical?

Or what am I missing?

Are you watching the games? Xhaka creates space for other players and gets to the back line minimum 1-2 times per game. Tielemans does not, he just does not run.

I fully agree with you he's an upgrade on Lokonga.

He's a good player, maybe Arteta can bring him to another level, but it's not set in stone.

The way I view it is that he’s not a starter, but he’s going to get a lot of games.

But if you view Tielemans as purely an asset and ignore how he’ll do for us then you still have good business due to his profile, EPL experience and so on. Say a year from now the move hasn’t worked out there’ll still be plenty of top clubs who know what he’s about and will pay a very good fee for him. It’s not unlikely that we even make a profit if he really is going for 15M. That’s less than Lokonga.

The only way I don’t sign him for the price quoted is if we already have a top CM lined up for the summer.

I agree. For that price tag, we should go for him.
But he's not a starter.

If his positioning is awful (which I doubt a bit as he has been so highly rated and has so much experience, plus is a starter for Belgium), then you can put Xhaka as DMF. Tielemans is a huge upgrade to Elneny and Sambi, and there is no guarantee ESR can stay fit, perform at CMF, and we might need him for LW rotation. Vieira is an unknown quality still and needs time to adjust to EPL.

He's a starter for Belgium but he's hit or miss there too. He was really bad at the last EC. I'd play Onana over him any time of the day. But yes, he's one of the first players on Martinez' starting 11.

 

[drippin]

Are you watching the games? Xhaka creates space for other players and gets to the back line minimum 1-2 times per game. Tielemans does not, he just does not run.

I fully agree with you he's an upgrade on Lokonga.

He's a good player, maybe Arteta can bring him to another level, but it's not set in stone.

I have watched some games, and it has made me think that Tielemans gets a very bad reputation defensively, because he has lost motivation for Leicester. Yes I hate his jogging when he is dribbled past, but it's understandable now at Leicester with no motivation. Then I also look at FBref EPL stats compared to Partey, and it paints a totally different picture.

I just wanted to know how can he have identical WhoScored rating in EPL to Xhaka (and very similar FBref stats to Partey this season in EPL), if he has only 1-2 good games in 10? Doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[db10_therza]

I have watched some games, and it has made me think that Tielemans gets a very bad reputation defensively, because he has lost motivation for Leicester. Yes I hate his jogging when he is dribbled past, but it's understandable now at Leicester with no motivation. Then I also look at FBref EPL stats compared to Partey, and it paints a totally different picture.

I just wanted to know how can he have identical WhoScored rating in EPL to Xhaka (and very similar FBref stats to Partey this season in EPL), if he has only 1-2 good games in 10? Doesn't make any sense at all.

Whoscored ratings are just an aggregation of stats. I’ll go back to my point about there not really being any stats for positioning. Take Özil as an example again, he was one of the best I have ever seen at sensing and running into spaces to create passing options or dragging opposition out of position etc. There is no stat that covers this.

Granit is incredibly intelligent when it comes to spaces, both in and out of possession. Honestly I didn’t appreciate it enough until I saw him in the ground a few times this season. It’s very easy to miss on television as the camera just follows the ball.

 

[drippin]

Whoscored ratings are just an aggregation of stats. I’ll go back to my point about there not really being any stats for positioning. Take Özil as an example again, he was one of the best I have ever seen at sensing and running into spaces to create passing options or dragging opposition out of position etc. There is no stat that covers this.

Granit is incredibly intelligent when it comes to spaces, both in and out of possession. Honestly I didn’t appreciate it enough until I saw him in the ground a few times this season. It’s very easy to miss on television as the camera just follows the ball.

Yeah, true for sure. But both FBref and WhoScored show that Tielemans has been good for Leicester this season (he is playing to showcase for his new club).

Xhaka is very good positionally, and we haven't seen him at DMF in this tactic yet, because of many reasons I mentioned earlier. Tielemans is a great CMF, so I can't see much problems with this transfer.

You can't get a better CMF in January. It's impossible imo, especially when you take the transfer fee into account.

 

[MikelHadADream]

The strength of our midfield now is largely down to Xhaka’s role imo. He’s got an elite level engine, he’s virtually a number 10 when we have the ball but he’s in along Partey when we don’t.

That in a way also makes it a weakness, as I don’t think many players could do Xhaka’s role, and I don’t think YT could. If Arteta wants him he’s obviously got a plan with him, but I don’t see him being a like for like Xhaka replacement, more Ødegaard cover imo.

 

[db10_therza]

Yeah, true for sure. But both FBref and WhoScored show that Tielemans has been good for Leicester this season (he is playing to showcase for his new club).

Xhaka is very good positionally, and we haven't seen him at DMF because of many reasons I mentioned earlier. Tielemans is a great CMF, so I can't see much problems with this transfer.

You can't get a better CMF in January. It's impossible imo, especially when you take the transfer fee into account.

You’ve won me over. Sign him up.

Tbh the only argument you needed was that bringing Tielemens in would mean Sambi never playing for us again

 

[Alter]

I just wanted to know how can he have identical WhoScored rating in EPL to Xhaka (and very similar FBref stats to Partey this season in EPL), if he has only 1-2 good games in 10? Doesn't make any sense at all.

Maybe because stats don't tell all.

I mean both Xhaka and Partey are playing an amazing season. They should be at 9/10 lol

 

[drippin]

The strength of our midfield now is largely down to Xhaka’s role imo. He’s got an elite level engine, he’s virtually a number 10 when we have the ball but he’s in along Partey when we don’t.

That in a way also makes it a weakness, as I don’t think many players could do Xhaka’s role, and I don’t think YT could. If Arteta wants him he’s obviously got a plan with him, but I don’t see him being a like for like Xhaka replacement, more Ødegaard cover imo.

To have any real title challenge this season, you want Tielemans to rotate Ødegaard and Xhaka CMF role. You don't want Elneny to cover those easier matches against busses.

What has been missed by many I think regarding Xhaka, is that he has always played for Arsenal when possible. Too many minutes, even this season. This affects his performance level in a long season, and his engine. But this is not talked about or considered usually, he has been mostly mocked earlier.

Tielemans enables to rest Xhaka (and Ødegaard), which helps Xhaka to be even better during rest of the season. Vieira is not yet ready and his performances surely alter too much.

 

[drippin]

Maybe because stats don't tell all.

I mean both Xhaka and Partey are playing an amazing season. They should be at 9/10 lol

No they don't, but are you saying you have watched all Tielemans' games this season and focused on him? Stats are still facts that have meaning, eventhough they have to be understood well and can mislead.

Eye test can also mislead, because one mistake sticks to mind, but not as easily all the small great things a player does. This has been the case with Xhaka very often.

 

[Rasmi]

Maybe because stats don't tell all.

I mean both Xhaka and Partey are playing an amazing season. They should be at 9/10 lol

And Leicester until recently we’re shocking. Who score is the dumbest thing to rate a player on

 

[drippin]

And Leicester until recently we’re shocking. Who score is the dumbest thing to rate a player on

I don't rate a player based on WhoScored, again you didn't understand.

FBref is the better tool, and I showed his stats vs. Partey this season in EPL, and he is very comparable in every way, in a worse team. Partey is a DMF, and Tielemans is a CMF, take that into account.

WhoScored was used only to quickly show that while @Alter said Tielemans has only 1 or 2 good games in 10, he still has identical WhoScored overall rating in EPL with Xhaka. In addition to the comparison of FBref to Partey.

Stats do not show at all what he claimed.

 

[drippin]

Here is a comparison with Xhaka. Press "toggle per 90" for all.

He has better defensive stats in every area other than clearances and dribbled past. Tackle percentage is the same (50), but he has made 3x more tackles. He compares very well against Xhaka & Partey in EPL this season.

And yes, we know that Xhaka is better positionally, but Tielemans is a midfielder with huge experience for his age and has been highly rated, so I won't believe he is "awful" defensively or positionally.

Player Comparison: Granit Xhaka vs. Youri Tielemans | FBref.com

Player Comparison: Granit Xhaka vs. Youri Tielemans

fbref.com

 

[ArsenalInMyHeart]

Here is a comparison with Xhaka. Press "toggle per 90" for all.

He has better defensive stats in every area other than clearances and dribbled past. Tackle percentage is the same (50), but he has made 3x more tackles. He compares very well against Xhaka & Partey in EPL this season.

And yes, we know that Xhaka is better positionally, but Tielemans is a midfielder with huge experience for his age and has been highly rated, so I won't believe he is "awful" defensively or positionally.

Player Comparison: Granit Xhaka vs. Youri Tielemans | FBref.com

Player Comparison: Granit Xhaka vs. Youri Tielemans

fbref.com

This season Xhaka always plays higher than Tielemans. I'm not surprised if Xhaka hasn't better defensive stats than Tielemans.
This season Tielemans plays more at 6 and Xhaka plays at 8

 

[drippin]

This season Xhaka always plays higher than Tielemans. I'm not surprised if Xhaka hasn't better defensive stats than Tielemans.
This season Tielemans plays more at 6 and Xhaka plays at 8

For sure, but it's just good to compare him to Partey & Xhaka both, because people here claim he only has 1 or 2 good games in 10.

Stats tell totally different story. He is very comparable overall to both players this season in EPL, when taking everything into account.

 

[Rasmi]

I don't rate a player based on WhoScored, again you didn't understand.

FBref is the better tool, and I showed his stats vs. Partey this season in EPL, and he is very comparable in every way, in a worse team. Partey is a DMF, and Tielemans is a CMF, take that into account.

WhoScored was used only to quickly show that while @Alter said Tielemans has only 1 or 2 good games in 10, he still has identical WhoScored overall rating in EPL with Xhaka. In addition to the comparison of FBref to Partey.

Stats do not show at all what he claimed.

Everyone in the world knows Partey is very good defensively and Tielesman is not good defensive at all. No amount of stats can convince any sane person differently

Also Hjorberg is miles better than Partey defensively stat wise, no one would say he is in real life. Tottenham gives away more shots and chances than almost every team in the league. Stats are usually nonsense. Specially for players we watched for years in the PL

 

[Alter]

No they don't, but are you saying you have watched all Tielemans' games this season and focused on him? Stats are still facts that have meaning, eventhough they have to be understood well and can mislead.

Eye test can also mislead, because one mistake sticks to mind, but not as easily all the small great things a player does. This has been the case with Xhaka very often.

I've watched some games at the beginning of the season where he was really bad. I've also watched the last couple of games, where Leicester as a whole played much better, with Tielemans higher on the pitch (more as a 10).

I've watched every game for Belgium, as I'm Belgian He'll probably be paired with Witsel in midfield, and my guess is it will be painfull to watch since neither of them is running into spaces.

Vieira is not yet ready and his performances surely alter too much.

It's funny you say that because that's Youri by definition: altering performances. I agree with you though he's probably better than Vieira and certainly more ready. I am curious what Arteta could do with this man, but at this point he would not start for Arsenal.

Tielemans enables to rest Xhaka (and Ødegaard), which helps Xhaka to be even better during rest of the season.

I think we agree. He's a steal at that price point. But he will be backup IF we get him.