Mesut Özil: Time to Move Ön?

[OnlyOne]

nah, players like Messi, Neymar, Ronaldo has little to no defensive responsibility and is given the freedom to fully focus on attack, but no one would consider them luxury players because of the difference they make, hell Messi probably walks 80% of the game..

Nothing wrong with giving Özil or anyone else freedom, but he has to deliver offensively to be worth it..

But clearly he isn't putting up the numbers Ronaldo and co are so a manager should tell him to put in that defensive shift to accomodate? Therefore making him non luxury right?

But then I guess if he's doing more defensive work he'll have less chance to put those numbers up?

Hopefully Emery can get the midfield balance correct to allow Özil that freedom.

 

[OnlyOne]

Think I just answered my own questions.

 

[krengon]

But clearly he isn't putting up the numbers Ronaldo and co are so a manager should tell him to put in that defensive shift to accomodate? Therefore making him non luxury right?

But then I guess if he's doing more defensive work he'll have less chance to put those numbers up?

Hopefully Emery can get the midfield balance correct to allow Özil that freedom.

yeah, just saying you're not necessarily a luxury player just because you don't/don't have to put in a defensive shift..

Anyway, I don't think that's Özil's problem as I think his effort on the defensive end has been good mostly. He needs to deliver more on the offensive end to justify that freedom though, a player of his quality should easily hit double figures in goals and assists..

 

[OnlyOne]

yeah, just saying you're not necessarily a luxury player just because you don't/don't have to put in a defensive shift..

Anyway, I don't think that's Özil's problem as I think his effort on the defensive end has been good mostly. He needs to deliver more on the offensive end to justify that freedom though, a player of his quality should easily hit double figures in goals and assists..

Yeah I agree, he's my favourite Arsenal player and I hope he does improve offensively. I'm hoping a combo of Laca and Auba will help him, we didn't see it too often last season.

 

[krengon]

Yeah I agree, he's my favourite Arsenal player and I hope he does improve offensively. I'm hoping a combo of Laca and Auba will help him, we didn't see it too often last season.

Think he's going to rack up the assists next season(quietly hopeful he'll break Henry's record), more in doubt about the goals. His goal scoring potential is huge compared to what he ends up with, just needs to look for his more as he often gets into good positions and technically he's a good finisher.. Not sure he'll be able to change at this stage though.

 

[Toby]

The term makes complete sense as long as you’re talking about a genuine luxury player. It’s a player who has all the skill and ability but has long spells where he’s not affecting the game offensively and doesn’t compensate for it defensive ly. I’m not speaking about Özil here—just explaining the term. We know these players exist, so it’s legit.

Yeah it's a shame the rest of the team has to carry that trash Muller..

Right there we've got a nice example of a luxury player. So many things have to be right for him to do the one thing he excels at: Finding space and scoring. If he doesn't do that, there's nothing much he does when on the pitch. It's a unique talent, he's probably the best at it and when on form he's unstoppable, but if not he's not affecting the game in any meaningful way. Sort of an anomaly that guy. Can't handle a ball for the sake of his life, but reads the game, finds space and drifts about like no one else when on fire - he's at the same time on of the best and one of the worst footballers out there.

 

[Mark Tobias]

No agenda just pointing out the obvious, Özil wasnt at the races today, did his usual pretty touches, bottled some tackles and not much else. Was just like watching last seasons Arsenal watching Germany today. They'll need to shape up if they want to qualify from this group.
Love to see Germany lose though, absolutely made my day. Long may their form (and Ozils in this tournament) continue.

Go look what forum this is, The Arsenal Talk page.

There is a whole section for World Cup discussion but you chose to come in here and post about Özil's performance even though it is completely unrelated to Arsenal at the moment. That is an agenda.

 

[TheArsenalis]

But clearly he isn't putting up the numbers Ronaldo and co are so a manager should tell him to put in that defensive shift to accomodate? Therefore making him non luxury right?

But then I guess if he's doing more defensive work he'll have less chance to put those numbers up?

Hopefully Emery can get the midfield balance correct to allow Özil that freedom.

on the contrary regardless, as an attacking player in todays game playing in Özil position your supposed to lock down the oposition DM or whoever closest to you otherwise youre playing part-time. even strikers in certain system are tasked with closing down defenders.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Go look what forum this is, The Arsenal Talk page.

There is a whole section for World Cup discussion but you chose to come in here and post about Özil's performance even though it is completely unrelated to Arsenal at the moment. That is an agenda.

He's an Arsenal player and I talk and compare repeatedly to his Arsenal performances. I suppose it is an agenda to say I don't like Özil and dont want him at Arsenal buts its also an agenda to say you do if you want to put it like that.
All just a matter of opinion and other people have put on all manner of stuff here not relating to Arsenal at all and German politics of all things, how does that relate to Arsenal exactly?

 

[Mark Tobias]

He's an Arsenal player and I talk and compare repeatedly to his Arsenal performances. I suppose it is an agenda to say I don't like Özil and dont want him at Arsenal buts its also an agenda to say you do if you want to put it like that.
All just a matter of opinion and other people have put on all manner of stuff here not relating to Arsenal at all and German politics of all things, how does that relate to Arsenal exactly?

I've got nothing against the fact you don;t like him. Just thought it pretty telling that you race into the Özil thread in an "I told you so" type fashion to bleat on about and international performance in a different system under a different manager with different players around him. Honestly thought you would have been a better poster than that as you usually are.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

I've got nothing against the fact you don;t like him. Just thought it pretty telling that you race into the Özil thread in an "I told you so" type fashion to bleat on about and international performance in a different system under a different manager with different players around him. Honestly thought you would have been a better poster than that as you usually are.

Thats the thing I dont think the setup was that different and if you listened and watched carefully neither did match commentators, here at least.
I think it was telling how Germany setup yesterday and found themselves in exactly the same sort of situation we had all season at Arsenal.
They were trying to pass through the eye of a needle and Mexico just sucker punched again and again. It felt very familiar but for Germany I don't care they can do it all day long and persist with Özil as much as they like. Happy days if they get knocked out in the groups.
They actually looked way better when Brandt came on and tried a different approach.
Just interesting to see that when teams setup a certain way against that way of playing it doesn't work.
Even one of the commentators mentioned they were trying to play like Spain (read Barcelona) now where have I heard that before?
I would suggest Germany, like Arsenal have setup to play that way BECAUSE of Özil and his unique abilities otherwise why leave Sane at home? I believe there is a problem with Özil maybe something wrong with his fitness or actually just plain old desire has gone, which does have consequences for Arsenal if he is our go to main man. Thats my worry as he hasnt performed for us anything like as much as a star player should and time will tell if he will step up for Germany at WC, I suspect he either wont or will get dropped.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

I've got nothing against the fact you don;t like him. Just thought it pretty telling that you race into the Özil thread in an "I told you so" type fashion to bleat on about and international performance in a different system under a different manager with different players around him. Honestly thought you would have been a better poster than that as you usually are.

Didnt mean it to be I told you so too, just happy Germany struggling. People are just so gushing about this guy as an individual I think they forget that having him in as part of a team has its downsides tactically. Unless you are a (performing) Germany or Real Madrid, which Arsenal are not. I live in hope that the good times will come again with a new manager and maybe Özil can play a part in that but he wont and shouldnt imo if he plays the way he has recently for Arsenal and Germany.

 

[Toby]

Thats the thing I dont think the setup was that different and if you listened and watched carefully neither did match commentators, here at least.
I think it was telling how Germany setup yesterday and found themselves in exactly the same sort of situation we had all season at Arsenal.
They were trying to pass through the eye of a needle and Mexico just sucker punched again and again. It felt very familiar but for Germany I don't care they can do it all day long and persist with Özil as much as they like. Happy days if they get knocked out in the groups.

Mate, I'm sorry to say, but if that's your analysis on the Germany - Mexico game, you haven't got any clue. If your interested in serious takes on it, get yourself into the Group F thread in the WorldCup subforum.

In here, only as much: Mesut Özil was the least of Germany's problems yesterday and he isn't shoehorned in or an accomodated luxury at all in that team. If you watched that game and your tactical conclusion was that Özil imbalances the team and that's why they lost, you either haven't got any clue about football at all or you're blinded by your dislike of Özil.

I don't even need or want to defend the fellow, his game was subpar of course, but there are a lot of other guys to blame for the loss before him.

Oh and btw trying to pass through a needle and being sucker punched...wtf that's like the most generic comment on a game of possession vs. parked bus/counter

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Mate, I'm sorry to say, but if that's your analysis on the Germany - Mexico game, you haven't got any clue. If your interested in serious takes on it, get yourself into the Group F thread in the WorldCup subforum.

In here, only as much: Mesut Özil was the least of Germany's problems yesterday and he isn't shoehorned in or an accomodated luxury at all in that team. If you watched that game and your tactical conclusion was that Özil imbalances the team and that's why they lost, you either haven't got any clue about football at all or you're blinded by your dislike of Özil.

I don't even need or want to defend the fellow, his game was subpar of course, but there are a lot of other guys to blame for the loss before him.

Oh and btw trying to pass through a needle and being sucker punched...wtf that's like the most generic comment on a game of possession vs. parked bus/counter

Hmm, well Germanys own defender (Hummels) has been saying as much that they were left tactically exposed defensively so simple/generic or not I think he may be an expert when he's on the pitch. Pundits here have been saying the same thing about Germany that they were trying to pass through the eye of the needle, Im just comparing that to Arsenal which is the point of this thread and was our downfall for years and years under Wenger.
Not particularly bothered if Özil tactically unbalances Germany and not saying that's necessarily so but Germany WERE tactically unbalanced yesterday and thats why they got smashed. They were lucky to only lose 1nil in most peoples opinion. Mexico far from parked the bus they were the better side.
Anyway on to more important matters for me. England tonight, hopefully Tunisia wont park the bus and we will play at a tempo to beat them even if they do....

 

[Wilshere1010]

I actually thought Özil was one of Germany's better players (I know thats not saying much). Kroos was pretty poor and Khedira was going walkabouts so he had to drop pretty deep to get involved. Think he got on the ball and tried to make things happen more than any other player if I'm being honest. Draxler, Muller and especially Khedira were the bigger problems.

 

[Toby]

Hmm, well Germanys own defender (Hummels) has been saying as much that they were left tactically exposed defensively so simple/generic or not I think he may be an expert when he's on the pitch.

Sure he is, but if you had watched the game you'd have seen what he meant: Being left alone by the fullbacks, especially Kimmich, and the defensive midfielders, especially Kroos. Nothing to do with Özil. For the goal he even tracked Lozano into the box, while fullbacks and central mids did f*ck all.

Germany WERE tactically unbalanced yesterday and thats why they got smashed.

Yes they were, but it wasn't down to Özil being fielded.

Not particularly bothered if Özil tactically unbalances Germany and not saying that's necessarily so

Seriously?

I would suggest Germany, like Arsenal have setup to play that way BECAUSE of Özil

time will tell if he will step up for Germany at WC, I suspect he either wont or will get dropped.

having him in as part of a team has its downsides tactically

Btw you seem pretty bothered about his Germany performance, coming in here and making it a stick to beat him with.

Mexico far from parked the bus they were the better side.

Mexico did a nice sort of gegenpress/transitional game in the first half, but from min 55' on they very, very much parked the bus. It was two players in the space between German CMs and CBs waiting to receive quick, direct balls to lay them off and then run into space, the rest of their team sat in and around their box.

 

[Godwin1]

I actually thought Özil was one of Germany's better players (I know thats not saying much). Kroos was pretty poor and Khedira was going walkabouts so he had to drop pretty deep to get involved. Think he got on the ball and tried to make things happen more than any other player if I'm being honest. Draxler, Muller and especially Khedira were the bigger problems.

He was crap mate Him, Muller and Werner stunk the place out offensively, Draxler wasn't too bad though. Of course there were some bad things going on behind him as well.

I think the old "when things go badly Özil goes missing" thing is a stick that's used to beat Özil too much though. When the system isn't working he just isn't the player to go deeper and control the game from there, he's always been a focal point offensively so when things are working and it's going through Özil then he shines. Nothing that hasn't been said for three seasons though.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Seriously?
↑
I would suggest Germany, like Arsenal have setup to play that way BECAUSE of Özil
↑
time will tell if he will step up for Germany at WC, I suspect he either wont or will get dropped.

having him in as part of a team has its downsides tactically

Its not a hard conclusion to come to mate, they were trying to play through Mexico and thought they could win by playing keep ball with their 61% possession. Mexico responded in kind and well done to them for doing so, just having the better players doesnt make you the better side, they were more savvy than Germany and Germany incorrectly thought they could just steamroller them being the world champs.
The main player Germany have who should be making a difference in that situation is Özil, hes certainly not there for his workrate or tracking back, despite his failed effort for the goal. He is there to pick difficult defences apart and he couldn't do it, although of course he wasn't alone in that, despite mounds of possession for Germany.
Maybe Germany are not setup to play that way specifically for Özil but you know what if there is one player who should be finding a way when his team has that much possession it is him. He also personally gets the lions share of the possession as well so its only reasonable to expect him to do something with it, especially when he's not the one who is very likely to win it back.
He couldn't find a way through last night and he and Germany didn't really look like doing so if they played 180 minutes. More importantly he really hasn't all season for Arsenal when faced with that sort of setup from an opposing team.

 

[Oh_Snap]

When the system isn't working he just isn't the player to go deeper and control the game from there

Actually that is exactly what he did. he moved to the right half space to help kimmich and close the gap a bit that he left (and Khedira doing nothing about it). Draxler and Müller failed to cut inside more though, Werner got cut off.

 

[Toby]

Its not a hard conclusion to come to mate, they were trying to play through Mexico and thought they could win by playing keep ball with their 61% possession. Mexico responded in kind and well done to them for doing so, just having the better players doesnt make you the better side, they were more savvy than Germany and Germany incorrectly thought they could just steamroller them being the world champs.
The main player Germany have who should be making a difference in that situation is Özil, hes certainly not there for his workrate or tracking back, despite his failed effort for the goal. He is there to pick difficult defences apart and he couldn't do it, although of course he wasn't alone in that, despite mounds of possession for Germany.
Maybe Germany are not setup to play that way specifically for Özil but you know what if there is one player who should be finding a way when his team has that much possession it is him. He also personally gets the lions share of the possession as well so its only reasonable to expect him to do something with it, especially when he's not the one who is very likely to win it back.
He couldn't find a way through last night and he and Germany didn't really look like doing so if they played 180 minutes. More importantly he really hasn't all season for Arsenal when faced with that sort of setup from an opposing team.

No sense in trying to talk tactics with someone who fails to look at it deeper than barely the most superficial layer of phrases. This is such a simplistic view on the game. Useless bla like savvy, steamrolling, having better players doesn't win you games - and then blaming a completely disjointed team performance very much rooted in the failure to react to Mexico's tactics by the manager mostly on one player 'cause he failed to unlock Mexico on his own in a disastruous game by the whole team. I'm done with this "discussion".