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Unai Emery: Adios

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Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
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Player:Saliba
Stoke city incident happened in December 2014 after our usual October-November **** show.
You keep calling Leicester city's win as a rare event. It was also a rare opportunity for us to sneak in a PL win. We missed it. And your excuse for this is injuries to Welbeck, Ramsey, Coquelin, Sanchez and Walcott. Isn't the manager to be blamed for not being ready for that. It's not like we had injury troubles with them suddenly. Welbeck, Ramsey and Walcott are known to be injury prone. If that's the case, you get decent backup for them. If you don't have that much money, sell them get a good replacement for them. He just sat and watched expecting all these problems to solve to just go away miraculously.
Sp**s couldn't reach the top of the table. But they did finish above us after Pochettino came. Didn't they?
Wenger's methods were outdated and didn't work towards the end of his reign. Blaming fans for his poor management is ridiculous. Even though many fans were against Wenger in the last two seasons’, the atmosphere became bad only after we dropped down the table around November.
Ha! You’ve learnt the script and that’s it.

If you’ve watched any football you know how important psychology is in a team. Hell this excellent Sp**s side folded 7 goals against Bayern. Why? They have an excellent manager and a strong squad. Simple, their heads are not in the right frame of mind this year.

The squad is unsettled they have a new stadium and certain players and maybe even the manager want to leave. They’re not enjoying their football anymore.

So what would they be like with protests, social media rants, planes overhead, boycotts and banners. How can any team spirit or sense of winning take place with that pressure.

The fans took Wenger down, not out dated methods. Wenger was fanatical about data and modern ideas in football. In fact I believe his/Gazidis’ robot scouting ideas were too far ahead of its time.
 

RacingPhoton

Established Member
Ha! You’ve learnt the script and that’s it.

If you’ve watched any football you know how important psychology is in a team. Hell this excellent Sp**s side folded 7 goals against Bayern. Why? They have an excellent manager and a strong squad. Simple, their heads are not in the right frame of mind this year.

The squad is unsettled they have a new stadium and certain players and maybe even the manager want to leave. They’re not enjoying their football anymore.

So what would they be like with protests, social media rants, planes overhead, boycotts and banners. How can any team spirit or sense of winning take place with that pressure.

The fans took Wenger down, not out dated methods. Wenger was fanatical about data and modern ideas in football. In fact I believe his/Gazidis’ robot scouting ideas were too far ahead of its time.
In case of Sp**s, it's not the case of the fans bringing the team down. How is that relevant to the argument here?
I am just saying that every season starts with fans getting behind the team. Fans meltdown happens only after we perform poorly. Your Stoke city station thing happened in a December. The jet thing happened in May. How can you blame fans if we were losing even before fan meltdown started?
Modern methods like data analysis? So, Mustafi, Xhaka, Perez were all decisions taken based on data analysis? There is a reason why other teams haven't started using that yet. They are clever enough to understand that machine learning is not ready yet to help them with player scouting.
When I say outdated, I mean handling of transfers. Players were not getting emotionally attached to clubs anymore. Clubs adapted to it by rapid buying and selling. We were giving chances for poor players and injury prone players for five years and more. That's what took the club back.
 

Makingtrax

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In case of Sp**s, it's not the case of the fans bringing the team down. How is that relevant to the argument here?
I am just saying that every season starts with fans getting behind the team. Fans meltdown happens only after we perform poorly. Your Stoke city station thing happened in a December. The jet thing happened in May. How can you blame fans if we were losing even before fan meltdown started?
Modern methods like data analysis? So, Mustafi, Xhaka, Perez were all decisions taken based on data analysis? There is a reason why other teams haven't started using that yet. They are clever enough to understand that machine learning is not ready yet to help them with player scouting.
When I say outdated, I mean handling of transfers. Players were not getting emotionally attached to clubs anymore. Clubs adapted to it by rapid buying and selling. We were giving chances for poor players and injury prone players for five years and more. That's what took the club back.
Of course it’s relevant! You didn’t read my post. It’s about team spirit.

Your theory that the fan pressure was only periodic is crazy. It was relentless in the last two years, particularly on social media. Even after his cup wins it continued. And you think the planes and boycotts at the end of one season doesn’t affect the start of the next? Team spirit must have been rock bottom and the players were nervous, and it showed particularly in away games where the crowd was taunting them as well.

And the stuff about sticking with injury prone players is a complex issue. We stuck with RVP and he became GOAT level for three seasons. With all Ramsey’s injury past, Juventus still bought him. Players sometimes come out of an injury period and become consistent. In any case we never had the money of the oligarch clubs to swap players out as soon as they have a problem.

I agree about Stat DNA the club was too far ahead of it’s time. Nobody’s saying the club didn’t make mistakes.
 

yorch44

Commander of the Pelotudo Brigade
I think the big problem from Wenger is losing the opportunity we had in that Leicester year. Saying we didn’t find players that improve us is a poor excuse. If we were Barcelona maybe... but come on! We had Giroud and Welbz as striker options. We didn’t have a right winger. Our CB was always one short man. Our CMs were injury prone. After first half we had a lot of injuries and we coulda reinforce the team... yes use some money but you could recover it with the championship! And of course the glory that comes with it.
 

drippin

Obsessed with "Mature Trusted Members"

Country: Finland
Of course it’s relevant! You didn’t read my post. It’s about team spirit.

Your theory that the fan pressure was only periodic is crazy. It was relentless in the last two years, particularly on social media. Even after his cup wins it continued. And you think the planes and boycotts at the end of one season doesn’t affect the start of the next? Team spirit must have been rock bottom and the players were nervous, and it showed particularly in away games where the crowd was taunting them as well.

And the stuff about sticking with injury prone players is a complex issue. We stuck with RVP and he became GOAT level for three seasons. With all Ramsey’s injury past, Juventus still bought him. Players sometimes come out of an injury period and become consistent. In any case we never had the money of the oligarch clubs to swap players out as soon as they have a problem.

I agree about Stat DNA the club was too far ahead of it’s time. Nobody’s saying the club didn’t make mistakes.

I understand both of your positions, but think RacingPhoton is on the money when saying it's better not to blame the fans for most things. Wenger's record against top 6 in last year was 1-3-6, goals 10-20 for example. That's no way to compete.

Why say Juventus bought Ramsey. They didn't. They got him for free. It's a very good investment even with the injury proneness. They can give him more wages than normal and not pay any fee so it's cheap still. And a bit easier league to help his injury proneness.
 

drippin

Obsessed with "Mature Trusted Members"

Country: Finland
When I say 'doesn't matter who the manager is', I'm saying as long as the club are appearing to move forward, I don't care who's in charge. I don't fanboy managers. If a manager is repeatedly doing crap, is signing crap players and failing to get CL football all the while, I'll want them gone. Nothing has changed on that front.

My stance on the situation is this, as I've said lots of times in various threads:

I'm not happy with the style of football. We aren't controlling games against fodder and we look a bit aimless at times.

I'm not happy with the way the Özil situation has been handled; he should have been sold in the summer, but the fact that he was not suggests to me that Emery really was trying to get it to work and he told Edu, Raul and Vinai that it was possible. My opinion is he messed up there, but he may have been told to make it work.

I am not happy that he persists with certain players who are clearly, to me, making the football and--last season , as we've only lost once this term--the results, suffer.

CL football will not be enough on it's own, and I could still want him sacked if I don't see sufficient improvement and feel confident that the team is making strides. So far, I can't say I'm convinced, although I've seen areas where we have.

As far as results go, he doing ok to very good.

As far as 'player development' goes--a subject raised by Run the Trap that you replied to with the superman gif when I pointed out that it was an area he's doing very well in--he's doing fantastic. I don't need to highlight the players who seem to be thriving either.

It seems you and few other want to crap on people who still have hope--people who are more pleased to see the club heading in the right direction than to have Emery at the ****ing helm. He can be a part of the future if things pickup but, if not, he can go south with the rest of the underperformers.

Emery didn't have 'fans' before he got here and nothing has changed.

Very well said, I think I agree with almost everything and could have written similarly.

I just think that Raul and co will give him at least one more season if reaching UCL, I'm 99% sure of that. And renewing is likely too then. No matter the "performances".

Regarding Özil it's almost impossible to sell him with his wages, so it's better to gamble if he could return to his level again. He loves Arsenal I think. Otherwise you get big loss like United with Sanchez. This way you still have hope. Who wants to pay most for Özil to play for another team?
 

Tosker

Does Not Hate Foreigners
Emery's future may well rest on whether Pepe comes good or not - it looked as if Josh Kroenke was persuaded to get on board with opening the cheque book to buy him, and if he fails, someone is going to be blamed. It probably ought to be Raul, but he strikes me as a bit of a buck passer, and it could be Emery's desk it stops at.

I just hope we don't get top 4 easily without Pepe, or that cheque book may never be opened again
 

Jury

A-M's drunk uncle
I just think that Raul and co will give him at least one more season if reaching UCL, I'm 99% sure of that. And renewing is likely too then. No matter the "performances".
Yes, Raul more or less said if he gets CL football then it's target achieved, so he's fine for another year. I think there's still a lot of football to played, though, and the way we get CL football, in my opinion, will have the final say on whether they activate the 'thanks, but no thanks' clause at the end of the season. For example, crap performances in the cups and scraping 4th, while playing unattractive football, wont do.
 

Makingtrax

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I understand both of your positions, but think RacingPhoton is on the money when saying it's better not to blame the fans for most things.
Why is it better not to blame the fans? :lol: It’s a football forum with free speech.

You can blame who you like. But I’m saying unequivocally that no team or manager can perform well with that sort of campaign against them. When planes are flying over head during matches, aggressive rants on social media, the internet full of memes, fans with placards, boycotts, protests in the streets.

And if you think that’s going to have no affect on performance you know nothing about sport. To perform at the top level, sportsmen need to be in the right frame of mind, relaxed and enjoying the games, not nervous, fending off perceived aggression and knowing everybody is unhappy with performances. It’s basic psychology 101.
 

drippin

Obsessed with "Mature Trusted Members"

Country: Finland
Why is it better not to blame the fans? :lol: It’s a football forum with free speech.

You can blame who you like. But I’m saying unequivocally that no team or manager can perform well with that sort of campaign against them. When planes are flying over head during matches, aggressive rants on social media, the internet full of memes, fans with placards, boycotts, protests in the streets.

And if you think that’s going to have no affect on performance you know nothing about sport. To perform at the top level, sportsmen need to be in the right frame of mind, relaxed and enjoying the games, not nervous, fending off perceived aggression and knowing everybody is unhappy with performances. It’s basic psychology 101.

The biggest reason I commented is because you said Ramsey was bought by Juventus, which is not true. Which issue you totally dodged. You cannot argue with that as your base.

Wenger trusted in many proven injury prone players simultaneously (which I was "mad" at at the time, not a fan of hindsight) and it cost Arsenal much more than changing some of them.

And I used my free speech to give a comment to say I understand what you both say (and don't "blame" anyone personally, love Wenger), but thought you blamed the fans too much for what happened.

The fans react to performances as RacingPhoton said. I'm pretty sure Wenger got more "fishing line" than many other managers in other big teams.

Of course you are right about what you said in that last part of your message.
 
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Makingtrax

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The biggest reason I commented is because you said Ramsey was bought by Juventus, which is not true. Which issue you totally dodged. You cannot argue with that as your base.

Wenger trusted in many proven injury prone players simultaneously (which I was "mad" at at the time, not a fan of hindsight) and it cost Arsenal much more than changing some of them.

And I used my free speech to give a comment to say I understand what you both say (and don't "blame" anyone personally, love Wenger), but thought you blamed the fans too much for what happened.

The fans react to performances as RacingPhoton said. I'm pretty sure Wenger got more "fishing line" than many other managers in other big teams.



Of course you are right about what you said in that last part of your message.
What are you wittering about? Ramsey is a tiny part of the argument I’ve made. Wenger came under great criticism for sticking with players like Ramsey and yet Juventus have invested heavily in him, is my point. €3.7 m in registration costs, an estimated €9m to his agent and €90 million to Ramsey over 4 years. That’s not cheap, showing they’re prepared to take a risk with him. Wenger is far from the only manager to give injured players a chance to get back to consistency.

And Wenger only got the fishing line he deserved. Sp**s and Liverpool who spent way more than Arsenal over the 22 years Wenger was in charge got nowhere near his top 4 consistency or his silverware.

Let’s see how Unai does this year.
 

freeglennhelder2

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Country: England

Player:Elneny
I’m one hundred percent sure great man Wenger would hold up his hands and say “Hey guys, got to admit, I stayed too long”

Nobody would dare to deny Wenger didn’t get a fair crack of the whip at Arsenal.

Agree with the post above, Pepe can make or break Emery. He might score a wondergoal next week and could suddenly explode into Henry reborn (he did curl a beauty just over the top corner in the last game) ... or he could be Francis Jeffers reborn. You never know which way it’s gonna go with a record signing:

Pepe - Way way too early, miss so far though
PEA - Hit
Laca - Hit
Özil - Miss
Mustafi - Miss
 

BigPoppaPump

Reeling from Laca & Kos nightmares
Why is it better not to blame the fans? :lol: It’s a football forum with free speech.

You can blame who you like. But I’m saying unequivocally that no team or manager can perform well with that sort of campaign against them. When planes are flying over head during matches, aggressive rants on social media, the internet full of memes, fans with placards, boycotts, protests in the streets.

And if you think that’s going to have no affect on performance you know nothing about sport. To perform at the top level, sportsmen need to be in the right frame of mind, relaxed and enjoying the games, not nervous, fending off perceived aggression and knowing everybody is unhappy with performances. It’s basic psychology 101.

But we had those nervous performances where the team completey crumbles way back even in the 2007/2008 team. It was a hallmark of many post-invincible teams that we would always be vunerable to crumbling and going on long runs of bad form. That is what caused fan unrest not the other way around.

My biggest problem with Arsène is how he never figured out how to stop his teams from collapsing either during a game or just their form over many games.
 

BigPoppaPump

Reeling from Laca & Kos nightmares
I’m one hundred percent sure great man Wenger would hold up his hands and say “Hey guys, got to admit, I stayed too long”

Nobody would dare to deny Wenger didn’t get a fair crack of the whip at Arsenal.

Agree with the post above, Pepe can make or break Emery. He might score a wondergoal next week and could suddenly explode into Henry reborn (he did curl a beauty just over the top corner in the last game) ... or he could be Francis Jeffers reborn. You never know which way it’s gonna go with a record signing:

Pepe - Way way too early, miss so far though
PEA - Hit
Laca - Hit
Özil - Miss
Mustafi - Miss

If Özil is a miss than Lacazette is an even bigger one. Özil has been way better for Arsenal.
 

RacingPhoton

Established Member
What are you wittering about? Ramsey is a tiny part of the argument I’ve made. Wenger came under great criticism for sticking with players like Ramsey and yet Juventus have invested heavily in him, is my point. €3.7 m in registration costs, an estimated €9m to his agent and €90 million to Ramsey over 4 years. That’s not cheap, showing they’re prepared to take a risk with him. Wenger is far from the only manager to give injured players a chance to get back to consistency.

And Wenger only got the fishing line he deserved. Sp**s and Liverpool who spent way more than Arsenal over the 22 years Wenger was in charge got nowhere near his top 4 consistency or his silverware.

Let’s see how Unai does this year.
Juventus have the luxury to take that risk because even if Ramsey gets injured it's not really a big deal for them. They have a very strong bench. In fact, he played only three matches in serie A so far this year. But Wenger was keeping injured players in crucial positions without proper back up.
Yes, RVP fired for us in one season. But look at the number of matches he didn't play for us and how it hurt us. Also look at the larger picture. Even in the season when RVP was god, did we manage to win anything? No. Because players in other positions were getting injured? This is what happens when you have a squad of too many injury prone players. Yes, they may come good for one season. But when one does come good and the rest of the team is injured, how does that help us in any way?
As you said, managers do support one/two players who are injury prone, expecting them to come good sometime. And that's just one/two. They make sure that even if they don't become fit, the team still has the means to function properly.
Just look at the trend of number of injuries we had over the years. It's not down to bad luck. We were clearly sticking to injured players, longer than any other team would.
 

Makingtrax

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But we had those nervous performances where the team completey crumbles way back even in the 2007/2008 team. It was a hallmark of many post-invincible teams that we would always be vunerable to crumbling and going on long runs of bad form. That is what caused fan unrest not the other way around.

My biggest problem with Arsène is how he never figured out how to stop his teams from collapsing either during a game or just their form over many games.
They were never long runs of bad form, otherwise we wouldn’t have been to top 4 every year for 20 years. like everybody else your comparing them to the invincibles

It was exactly the form of a team over performing for it’s spend. Between 2004 and 2013 we spent less than Stoke.
 

Makingtrax

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Juventus have the luxury to take that risk because even if Ramsey gets injured it's not really a big deal for them. They have a very strong bench. In fact, he played only three matches in serie A so far this year. But Wenger was keeping injured players in crucial positions without proper back up.
Yes, RVP fired for us in one season. But look at the number of matches he didn't play for us and how it hurt us. Also look at the larger picture. Even in the season when RVP was god, did we manage to win anything? No. Because players in other positions were getting injured? This is what happens when you have a squad of too many injury prone players. Yes, they may come good for one season. But when one does come good and the rest of the team is injured, how does that help us in any way?
As you said, managers do support one/two players who are injury prone, expecting them to come good sometime. And that's just one/two. They make sure that even if they don't become fit, the team still has the means to function properly.
Just look at the trend of number of injuries we had over the years. It's not down to bad luck. We were clearly sticking to injured players, longer than any other team would.
The majority of those though were players acquired at a very early age and brought on by the club. If Wenger had had Abramovic’s or SAFs money he’d have been swapping out players much faster. Like other fans you never understood that Wenger was competing with Europe’s top teams with half their spend for almost 10 years.

Remind yourself
 

freeglennhelder2

Established Member

Country: England

Player:Elneny
If Özil is a miss than Lacazette is an even bigger one. Özil has been way better for Arsenal.

Nah. I think if you took a survey of Arsenal fans globally, taking each players career in its entirety, Ozils has been a disappointment (this has been posted in his thread by different individuals multiple times) Lacas has been a relative success so far. This is obviously subject to change over time. No doubt there have been some world class performances, but we expected more from the wee man Özil. Laca was ££ but his average contributions mark him as a success.

I’ve never seen an ex-Arsenal pro criticise Laca. About 5 or 6 have slated Özil, spread over the years, from subtle criticism all the way up to Keown totally losing his sh*t on TV that time. My man Keown went too far maybe but his frothing rage was born out of love for our club.

Back to Emery- he is in Pepes hands now (and to a slightly lesser extent Xhaka if he keeps playing him)
 
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