Granit Xhaka: 2019/20 Performances

[Riou]

You can but you really shouldn’t, unless it is well planned.
Dribbling from the back in central area is dangerous, if you lost the ball, you’d face a counter attack that is usually being outnumbered.

Unless your tactics is specifically setup for that, you shouldn’t dribble in those area as a CM. Alonso, Xavi, pirlo, Carrick...they let their modric, iniesta, kaka, and rooney do all the dribbling. They never have to be good at dribbling. They dictate the tempo and make passes.
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Here, both CM bombs forward. But notice that the full backs are drifted inside to cover the central area space in case of a counter attack. This sacrifice the defending on both sides, but to protect the central area is more important, so it makes sense. The full backs are now the new CM and aside from preparing for transition to defending, they have to do the passing/dictating tempo work of a CM should do. And they should never dribble in these situation, as it would be dangerous.

None of those players could dribble like Paddy though, plus he always had Gilberto etc behind him covering the counter attack, not all teams play the same way...plus sometimes you have to ignore tactics a little and trust your players, if Vieira tells me he has this, then I will believe him.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Yes he is. They are totally different players. Flamini was quicker, more dynamic, more effective as a ball winner, a snappier short passer and actually a seriously underrated finisher.

Xhaka has better positional sense, better long passing, is a lot better in the air, better set pieces (though doesn't get to take them much any more due other arrivals), and his left footedness gives us more tactical options.

I say this as someone who liked Flamni a lot. But once his speed and energy levels dropped, he was not nearly as effective as back in 07/08

Do you have evidence to back up the statement re better in the air than flamini re aerial duels won? Also disagree re defensive positioning completely, if you look at stats flamini would have way more interceptions and tackles than xhaka manages and was much better at getting into correct defensive positions,. I will eat my words if you can prove me wrong on that. Going forward and structurally in the midfield perhaps,. Flamini didnt do that many long balls or set pieces so hard to judge, he had other players around him to do all that so therein lies the problem as xhaka offers that and doesnt have nasri, cesc etc to do the fancy stuff seeing as our attacking midfielder is awol again.

 

[Riou]

Can we also all take a minute to appreciate how intelligent Patrick Vieira was as a midfielder.

At his best he was the most dynamic box to box midfielder this country has seen, with a great dibbling ability and passing range, also a relentless ball winner for us on the defensive side...not to mention being an absolute leader of men.

Obviously he was at his best when paired with a more defensive minded player, as the benefits he then brought to our game were magnified many times over that way...but when Gilberto did his back in 2004/2005, Vieria played with Cesc mainly that season...Paddy set back more that season to take the defensive pressure of his young teammate, though it wasn't ideal as the pairing didn't quite click consistently, it was still great to watch...it proved that Vieira could understand the strengths and weaknesses of his teammates, showing a different side to his game.

Annoys me that Vieira doesn't get the respect for this side of his game (his passing as well I feel is very underrated) doesn't get talked about as a very intelligent player, even though he was...while everyone praises the intelligence the like of Scholes, Lampard or Gerrard had, Vieira just gets called a "midfield beast"...wonder why that is...

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Can we also all take a minute to appreciate how intelligent Patrick Vieira was as a midfielder.

At his best he was the most dynamic box to box midfielder this country has seen, with a great dibbling ability and passing range, also a relentless ball winner for us on the defensive side...not to mention being an absolute leader of men.

Obviously he was at his best when paired with a more defensive minded player, as the benefits he then brought to our game were magnified many times over that way...but when Gilberto did his back in 2004/2005, Vieria played with Cesc mainly that season...Paddy set back more that season to take the defensive pressure of his young teammate, though it wasn't ideal as the pairing didn't quite click consistently, it was still great to watch...it proved that Vieira could understand the strengths and weaknesses of his teammates, showing a different side to his game.

Annoys me that Vieira doesn't get the respect for this side of his game (his passing as well I feel is very underrated) doesn't get talked about as a very intelligent player, even though he was...while everyone praises the intelligence the like of Scholes, Lampard or Gerrard had, Vieira just gets called a "midfield beast"...wonder why that is...

Id say scholes was more beast like, annoying little orange ogre as he was. Also absolutely filthy player as well, i know what you are driving at though and suppose you could come to that conclusion withchis descriptions
Viera WAS a beast (someone to strike fear into the opposition) and a king amongst arsenal midfielders and i mean that all as a huge compliment, we never replaced him and havent even tried, even now. Bizarre that we moved away fron that sort of size in midfield when it really is available. Its to do with wengers failed post emirates philosophy about how arsenal should play i tells you.

 

[Football Manager]

None of those players could dribble like Paddy though, plus he always had Gilberto etc behind him covering the counter attack, not all teams play the same way...plus sometimes you have to ignore tactics a little and trust your players, if Vieira tells me he has this, then I will believe him.

Having Gilberto at the back is not enough. As a CM, if you dribble forward from your position, you will leave huge gaps in the middle. Tactics back in the past was not that well calculated. You could play more freely and get away with things. But now with modern pressing and precise movements of players, even a small gap would be exploited and can turn into a huge problem. Modern tactics is much more detailed, calculated and structured.

Of course it’s just an example that I’ve made. You can do it like old Liverpool, that tuck in kyut to let gerrard gets forward. Or the old Chelsea which has the whole team staying at the back to let lampard drive forward. Both ****ing dull, boring teams that played **** football. Normally this works with defensive minded **** teams. If you are an attacking team you would rather have a more traditional pirlo type of CM. If not, then your possession play will be less effective and you will always lose on counter attack.

By the way, I have added some points:

You can but you really shouldn’t, unless it is well planned.
Dribbling from the back in central area is dangerous, if you lost the ball, you’d face a counter attack that is usually being outnumbered.

Unless your tactics is specifically setup for that, you shouldn’t dribble in those area as a CM. Alonso, Xavi, pirlo, Carrick...they let their modric, iniesta, kaka, and rooney do all the dribbling. They never have to be good at dribbling. They dictate the tempo and make passes.

Here, both CM bombs forward. But notice that the full backs are drifted inside to cover the central area space in case of a counter attack. This sacrifice the defending on both sides, but to protect the central area is more important, so it makes sense. The full backs are now the new CM and aside from preparing for transition to defending, they have to do the passing/dictating tempo work of a CM should do. And they should never dribble in these situation, as it would be dangerous.

And also notice as both CM run further forward, they become the attacking midfielder or second striker.

So for a CM to run forward, you need to have a good plan. Then you need whoever cover his space to posses the quality of a CM. And also, your CM need to have the quality of an attacking midfielder or second striker.

You seems to hate that scholes/carrick type of player and prefer the type of lampard/gerrard (which I think they are ****), more than just hating Xhaka as a player. I don’t get why a CM must have dribbling skills. You expect John Terry to defend, you expect Xavi to pass, and you expect Ronaldinho to do the dribbling. You don’t need John Terry or Xavi to dribble past 2-3 defenders. Same with Xhaka.

 

[Riou]

Having Gilberto at the back is not enough. As a CM, if you dribble forward from your position, you will leave huge gaps in the middle. Tactics back in the past was not that well calculated. But now with modern pressing and precise player movements, even a small gaps would be exploited and can turn into a huge problem.

Of course it’s just an example that I’ve made. You can do it like old Liverpool, that tuck in kyut to let gerrard gets forward. Or the old Chelsea which has the whole team staying at the back to let lampard drive forward. Both ****ing dull, boring teams that played **** football. Normally this works with defensive minded **** teams. If you are an attacking team you would rather have a more traditional pirlo type of CM. If not, then your possession play will be less effective and you will always lose on counter attack.

By the way, I have added some points:

Think we are agreeing on the same basic values, you play your team/players to their strengths.

Having Gilberto at the back is not enough

Ummm, I am pretty sure it was...

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Having Gilberto at the back is not enough. As a CM, if you dribble forward from your position, you will leave huge gaps in the middle. Tactics back in the past was not that well calculated. You could play more freely and get away with things.But now with modern pressing and precise movements of players, even a small gap would be exploited and can turn into a huge problem.

Of course it’s just an example that I’ve made. You can do it like old Liverpool, that tuck in kyut to let gerrard gets forward. Or the old Chelsea which has the whole team staying at the back to let lampard drive forward. Both ****ing dull, boring teams that played **** football. Normally this works with defensive minded **** teams. If you are an attacking team you would rather have a more traditional pirlo type of CM. If not, then your possession play will be less effective and you will always lose on counter attack.

By the way, I have added some points:

Id rather had lampard or gerrard doing that than xhakas contribution frankly. Why do we have to play attractive football in the style of the spanish/italian league, its the english league after all and arguably neither of those leagues are more excitong to watch. ? Pirlo never came to this league so we'll never know but i dont think he would have got on well having watched him. In exactly the same way as xhaka hasnt. Thats just because of his characteristics/suitability to the league rather than his talent. Have you ever worked out why veron didnt work out in the premier league for example?

 

[Football Manager]

Think we are agreeing on the same basic values, you play your team/players to their strengths.



Ummm, I am pretty sure it was...

Not applicable in the modern game

 

[RacingPhoton]

Do you have evidence to back up the statement re better in the air than flamini re aerial duels won? Also disagree re defensive positioning completely, if you look at stats flamini would have way more interceptions and tackles than xhaka manages and was much better at getting into correct defensive positions,. I will eat my words if you can prove me wrong on that. Going forward and structurally in the midfield perhaps,. Flamini didnt do that many long balls or set pieces so hard to judge, he had other players around him to do all that so therein lies the problem as xhaka offers that and doesnt have nasri, cesc etc to do the fancy stuff seeing as our attacking midfielder is awol again.

Taking Xhaka's best season in Arsenal based on defensive stats - 2017/18
Flamini's best season and also the season where he had most starts for Arsenal - 2007/08

Appearances:
Xhaka - 38 Flamini - 30
Tackles:
Xhaka - 78 with 73% success and 57 fouls
Flamini - 84 with 67% success and 52 fouls
Interceptions:
Xhaka - 37
Flamini - 57
Aerial battles:
Xhaka - 49 won and 50 lost
Flamini - 28 won and 20 lost

Flamini clearly does well on positioning with more tackles and interceptions even after playing 8 matches less than Xhaka while Xhaka has done better on aerial battles.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Taking Xhaka's best season in Arsenal based on defensive stats - 2017/18
Flamini's best season and also the season where he had most starts for Arsenal - 2007/08

Appearances:
Xhaka - 38 Flamini - 30
Tackles:
Xhaka - 78 with 73% success and 57 fouls
Flamini - 84 with 67% success and 52 fouls
Interceptions:
Xhaka - 37
Flamini - 57
Aerial battles:
Xhaka - 49 won and 50 lost
Flamini - 28 won and 20 lost

Flamini clearly does well on positioning with more tackles and interceptions even after playing 8 matches less than Xhaka while Xhaka has done better on aerial battles.

Nice, thankyou. Personally id prefer flamini with those stats, he would clearly offer more of what we need. Also add to that mistakes leading to goals + fouls conceded and i would say that gives a better picture of who the better player is. Statistically at least.

 

[Football Manager]

Nice, thankyou. Personally id prefer flamini with those stats, he would clearly offer more of what we need.

Xhaka is not the same player type as Flamini. Comparing pirlo to gattuso, or xavi to busquets is meaninless. They are different types of players. You should compare pirlo to xavi, or gattuso to busquets.
And you compare Xhaka to someone else without passing stats?

 

[Riou]

Always felt Mourinho's first Chelsea team of 2004-2007 is a little underrated, similar to our 1988-1992 team...just because they were mainly counter attacking sides, doesn't mean they couldn't pass teams off the park when they wanted...some proper ****house characters in those teams too, that I love to watch.

Like our 1997-2005 is still (in my opinion) the best attacking team this country has seen, in terms of how amazing it was to watch...it didn't also mean that we didn't defend brilliantly when the time called for it...all great teams have many weapons in their arsenal (no pun intended).

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Xhaka is not the same player type as Flamini. Comparing pirlo to gattuso, or xavi to busquets is meaninless. They are different types of players. You should compare pirlo to xavi, or gattuso to busquets.
And you compare Xhaka to someone else without passing stats?

Who would you compare xhaka to then? Interested. Do they play in england I wonder? That would be a good place to start for a fair comparison as im not interested in italian or spanish league when xhaka plays in england?

 

[Football Manager]

Id rather had lampard or gerrard doing that than xhakas contribution frankly. Why do we have to play attractive football in the style of the spanish/italian league, its the english league after all and arguably neither of those leagues are more excitong to watch. ? Pirlo never came to this league so we'll never know but i dont think he would have got on well having watched him. In exactly the same way as xhaka hasnt. Thats just because of his characteristics/suitability to the league rather than his talent. Have you ever worked out why veron didnt work out in the premier league for example?

Your reply further shows that a lot of you hate him as a player type, more than the actual player.
I prefer the player type of him, if you think he is not good enough, then fine, I would prefer to look for upgrade in the same player type, which you would hate for sure.

 

[Football Manager]

Who would you compare xhaka to then? Interested. Do they play in england I wonder as that would be a good place to start for a faircomparison.

A player that is a lot better than him under the same player type is Alonso.

You can find a **** Sunday league player who dictate his team’s tempo, make long pass and try long shot. He would also be under the same player type.

Here I also suggested that Xhaka can be replaced by Tonali or Cuisance

I'm not against selling him, but at least we should have a replacement before doing so, a replacement like Tonali, who can serve the same tactical purpose.

Do you understand why managers (pre-arsenal, arsenal and international) all like to use Xhaka? He has a quality that serves a tactical purpose with his long passes that only few players can replicate.

Tactical details is the most important aspect of the game in a manger’s or in a sophisticated fan’s eyes.

It’s like having a team with 11 Mertesacker, and you want to play counter attack football. One day Walcott joins your team. Yes, Walcott always makes mistakes, he is a **** footballer and he always loses possession. But he serves the tactical purpose, and you would be happy to have him in your team.

What is in a manager’s mind?
Opponent set a high defensive line, I need Auba’s pace to exploit the space behind during counter attack. If Auba makes a run to exploit the space, who can make that 40 yards long pass to initiate the attack? Xhaka. Who else can? No one. If you don’t play Xhaka, your tactics is dead. As simple as this. Unless “if” guendouzi is capable of doing the same type of pass, and guendouzi make less mistakes than Xhaka, then I would always prefer to play guendouzi.

No one says Xhaka is the best, but with the midfielders we are having now, he should be the first midfielder named on the starting lineup. If you think tactically, it’s hard not to see that this is the most logical choice. And it’s not just me, every managers he previously played with was thinking the same way, that’s why they picked him to play.

If we buy prime iniesta, Xhaka would still be here. If we buy prime gattuso, Xhaka would still be here. Because they can’t replace his tactical purpose. I don’t understand why most of you are so simple minded and just won’t think tactically. Unless if we get someone like Tonali or Cuisance to replace him, he will be played in almost every game. It’s fine to say he is not good enough or needed to be replaced. But at the moment, you can’t deny that he is a very important player to the team.

 

[shootxhakashoot]

Your reply further shows that a lot of you hate him as a player type, more than the actual player.
I prefer the player type of him, if you think he is not good enough, then fine, I would prefer to look for upgrade in the same player type, which you would hate for sure.

I dont hate his player "type" he is pretty average at best for arsenal and we need an upgrade. The player type is not very common in the uk hence why you go all the way back to alonso who was a far superior player alround if we are going there. Its not about hate, its just a fast paced league which requires quick movement and that sort of slow build up doesnt work well often here, as shown by all the league winners going back ad infinitum and demonstated well by liverpool this year. I dont know why we should reinvent the wheel to accomodate a player like this. Hes been found out multiple times and cant do much quickly, its not a crime but its not good enough for this league.

 

[Oxeki]

The only area Xhaka matches Flamini IMO is passing.

Flamini is far more dynamic and offer way more to our game than Xhaka ever will.

 

[Football Manager]

I dont hate his player "type" he is pretty average at best for arsenal and we need an upgrade. The player type is not very common in the uk hence why you go all the way back to alonso who was a far superior player alround if we are going there. Its not about hate its just a fast paced league which requires quick movement and that sort of slow build up doesnt work well often here. I dont know why we should reinvent the wheel to accomodate a player like this.

You remembered how Barcelona dominates United in the CL Final? With United playing at such a high tempo and aggressiveness.

Slow build up and entertaining football can beat any teams in England. So why couldn’t it work here? You just have to play that way for 38 games.

 

[Oxeki]

When's the last time 90% of the posters voted for an Arsenal win.

A week ago, the doomlords on here were predicting apocalypse for us

 

[shootxhakashoot]

You remembered how Barcelona dominates United in the CL Final? With United playing at such a high tempo and aggressiveness.

I dont really know what that has to do with all this?