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Mikel Arteta: Top Of The Klopps

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
He should've tried to bypass with some long balls, however problem is all our forwards are weak as f*ck, and are unable to keep the ball for more than a second on their own.

A big problem is also that our long-balls were really inaccurate and poorly timed, today. Luiz a big culprit, and Holding being **** on the ball the bigger one. There was space for passes behind the Liverpool line, the diagonal to Wili was on loads, but Luiz's passing was frustratingly inaccurate.

Elneny can't pass and Xhaka doesn't have the composure to get his head up and make a pass like that under pressure, those are of course big problems too in trying to bypass a press. Our forwards not being strong is kinda irrelevant, if anything Auba and Wili are great out-balls because they make good, well-timed runs and have pace.

The comment about Ceballos vs. Liverpool last season is silly, it was under incoherent Em*ry, Ceballos will find it hard like any player against Liverpool's press, but it's plain to see he handles it far better than Xhaka or any other midfield currently in our ranks, and he created our two biggest chances (really not convinced Laca was offside on the first terrible finish).

We were lucky for a while with this formation, just like Emery was lucky at one point, but there's absolutely no football there. Again, my opinion is based more on the West Ham game, but this game today was just a confirmation that we've started the season with a completely wrong game plan and a couple of lucky results wont change that

Apples and oranges. Arteta has absolutely rode his luck and the results absolutely have belied the performances so far, but there is a coherent plan there, there is real instruction, which is why the players are all behind him and convinced that he is a top manager. Watch a video of our goals playing out of a press, it's got the massive, undeniable handprint of a manager effectively teaching good juego de posición in countering a press. The 3-4-3 in defence and 4-3-3 in possession has also been a very astute reading and use of our personnel, and well taught and translated to the pitch.

Arteta is doing what he can with his personnel, it's totally different to incoherent Emery and his early-season luck, or even the lucky run we had under Wenger in the first half of 13-14, where we similarly well out-performed our xG/actual performance level/actual level of tactical instruction.

Nitpicking there are a few times he has been arguably too conservative--Olympiakos, 2nd half against Leicester after having that approach come back to bite us in another match before which we should've learned from (forget which, but there was a precedent)--and today I winced a bit when I saw the lineup, but to be fair the idea to keep it close and bring on more attacking talent basically worked, Lacazette just bottled it, so while I still would've liked to see Dani from the start and maybe Saka for AMN, it's hard to be too critical.
 

Mrs Bergkamp

Double Dusted
Dusted 🔻
Poor selection tonight but it showed how deficient we are in so many areas. All the injured and unwanted players wouldn't have made the slightest difference tonight.
 

Maybe

You're wrong, no?
Apples and oranges. Arteta has absolutely rode his luck and the results absolutely have belied the performances so far, but there is a coherent plan there, there is real instruction, which is why the players are all behind him and convinced that he is a top manager. Watch a video of our goals playing out of a press, it's got the massive, undeniable handprint of a manager effectively teaching good juego de posición in countering a press. The 3-4-3 in defence and 4-3-3 in possession has also been a very astute reading and use of our personnel, and well taught and translated to the pitch.

Arteta is doing what he can with his personnel, it's totally different to incoherent Emery and his early-season luck, or even the lucky run we had under Wenger in the first half of 13-14, where we similarly well out-performed our xG/actual performance level/actual level of tactical instruction.
I don't doubt Arteta and his impact at all, I was for him at the time when you would get ridiculed just by mentioning Arteta as a potential manager, and everyone was for Allegri or his type of managers.
Do I disagree with him insisting on Xhaka and Bellerin? Sure, but I've often had doubts over Wenger's decisions but I still consider him the greatest manager.
I'm not saying he can do much with this squad, especially against top teams, but I'd like to understand the decision to drop someone like Ceballos and start Xhaka, at the same time when he wants to play from the back. Surely there's nobody worse than Xhaka when you invite pressure on your team and need to do some risky turns with the ball to break the pressure. That's not a personnel issue, that's just the wrong manager decision.
Nothing we can do about the result or having players like Bellerin, but we could definitely improve on some of the more obvious problems that we have
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
I don't doubt Arteta and his impact at all, I was for him at the time when you would get ridiculed just by mentioning Arteta as a potential manager, and everyone was for Allegri or his type of managers.
Do I disagree with him insisting on Xhaka and Bellerin? Sure, but I've often had doubts over Wenger's decisions but I still consider him the greatest manager.
I'm not saying he can do much with this squad, especially against top teams, but I'd like to understand the decision to drop someone like Ceballos and start Xhaka, at the same time when he wants to play from the back. Surely there's nobody worse than Xhaka when you invite pressure on your team and need to do some risky turns with the ball to break the pressure. That's not a personnel issue, that's just the wrong manager decision.
Nothing we can do about the result or having players like Bellerin, but we could definitely improve on some of the more obvious problems that we have

My reading of his decision is that he's a big fan of experience and tends toward conservatism-- I think Xhaka will have been the choice he was sure about due to his experience and leadership, and between Elneny and Ceballos he would've thought well Elneny's athleticism will cover Xhaka's deficiencies better than Ceballos' qualities will, and anyways I'm aiming for a very negative approach, and can bring on Ceballos and players more capable on the ball if we keep it close.

I also think the fact Ceballos looked very sloppy and unconcentrated when he came on against Leicester the other day ¿might? have influenced his decision. Dunno.

I understand his reasoning...not sure if I agree with it. Like I say, hard to be too critical when the plan worked aside from terrible finishing from Laca, then again you might say that we might've been in a better position than 2-1 down if he had just started Ceballos.

Let's see how the season evolves. I am sure he will pick Ceballos the next time he goes with this approach, and whether it's Xhaka or Elneny I'm not sure it matters much, it's pick your skills, a bit more press resistance and legs vs. little press resistance, not much athleticism, much better passing and more leadership. In the end similar level of player.

Btw Bellerín was quality today and is in good form. If he continues to get fitness back he might become again a position we don't need to upgrade in a top team.
 

Miyata

Active Member
Arteta could be blamed here for starting too safe and obviously invite the pressure on us, however if we didn't concede the first 2 goals like total kindergarten level of ****show.. We would be praising Arteta right now.

These individual defensive mistakes are unreal if you ask me ffs.
 

Impact

Established Member
I like Arteta's pragmatic approach especially given the latter end of Wenger era and Emery's reign where we were often beaten comprehensively by top 6 teams.

Better to be humble, disciplined and competitive and then come away with a respectable result (even if that is a loss) than be trounced by a rival.

From his comments, I'm confident we will move to a more expansive style when he has the right players at his disposal.

However I would like to see more variation with his in-game tactics. Change the shape a bit. Move players around. If game plan A doesn't work, have a plan B. At the moment, it seems all he does it make a few obvious like-for-like changes and hopes for the best.
 

Mrs Bergkamp

Double Dusted
Dusted 🔻
"We have to read the game better. We have to better 1v1 vs the GK. We are trying to improve the team. We competed for 85 minutes". It was a very controlled interview where he didn't give much away. A Carra said, he can't get any more out of this group of players. We have to support him now as we will never have a better opportunity to strengthen and shed the dross in 9 months time.
 

Mrs Bergkamp

Double Dusted
Dusted 🔻
I like Arteta's pragmatic approach especially given the latter end of Wenger era and Emery's reign where we were often beaten comprehensively by top 6 teams.

Better to be humble, disciplined and competitive and then come away with a respectable result (even if that is a loss) than be trounced by a rival.

From his comments, I'm confident we will move to a more expansive style when he has the right players at his disposal.

However I would like to see more variation with his in-game tactics. Change the shape a bit. Move players around. If game plan A doesn't work, have a plan B. At the moment, it seems all he does it make a few obvious like-for-like changes and hopes for the best.
A big issue is that we don't have enough players who can play 6/10 in two different positions. The whole team is hamstrung by very limited CM's and our best CB's being new and young. We have to keep this rigid system sadly.
 

Kav

Established Member
A big issue is that we don't have enough players who can play 6/10 in two different positions. The whole team is hamstrung by very limited CM's and our best CB's being new and young. We have to keep this rigid system sadly.

Perhaps if he didn’t back himself into a corner with his position on certain players (Özil and Guendouzi) then he would have had those options available to him to effect the changes during the game.

He has done a very good job but going away to Liverpool with that 2 man midfield against a Liverpool press with Keita, Fabinho and Wijnaldum in the middle of the park was asking for trouble. Klopp made the adjustments from the last time he played us. Let us see what adjustments Arteta makes for Thursday.
 

Mrs Bergkamp

Double Dusted
Dusted 🔻
Perhaps if he didn’t back himself into a corner with his position on certain players (Özil and Guendouzi) then he would have had those options available to him to effect the changes during the game.

He has done a very good job but going away to Liverpool with that 2 man midfield against a Liverpool press with Keita, Fabinho and Wijnaldum in the middle of the park was asking for trouble. Klopp made the adjustments from the last time he played us. Let us see what adjustments Arteta makes for Thursday.
Özil is done. I don't even think of him as an option. Guendouzi I'm disappointed about but as much as he can add drive, positionally, he's a bit off and that may have been more costly. I think I said somewhere else that none of the unavailable players would have made a difference tonight. We need new and better players.
 

Kav

Established Member
I am not quite sure because Guendouzi can beat a press and as inconsistent as Özil is on his day he can unlock Liverpool’s defense. Our problem is that Arteta sets us up to be hard to beat which means very little possession of the ball but in exchange we control more of the spaces with our positioning and movements. Defensively we are better but the lack of ball possession and progression will be problematic as Xhaka, Elneny, AMN not even Ceballos (the closest) can command that midfield like a Thiago or Jorginho or Kovacic can.

Özil is probably the answer but will only work if we get a Partey or Sangare/Ndidi type of player there. Fulham have a pretty good player in anguissa as well.
 

krackpot

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
Very happy and positive about him.

Apart from his bizarre team selection. Especially when he keeps selecting Willian over Pepe and Reiss
 

AbouCuéllar

Author of A-M essays 📚
I am not quite sure because Guendouzi can beat a press and as inconsistent as Özil is on his day he can unlock Liverpool’s defense. Our problem is that Arteta sets us up to be hard to beat which means very little possession of the ball but in exchange we control more of the spaces with our positioning and movements. Defensively we are better but the lack of ball possession and progression will be problematic as Xhaka, Elneny, AMN not even Ceballos (the closest) can command that midfield like a Thiago or Jorginho or Kovacic can.

Özil is probably the answer but will only work if we get a Partey or Sangare/Ndidi type of player there. Fulham have a pretty good player in anguissa as well.

Özil is washed up, I don't know why people are so obsessed with him. There are tonnes of #10s better than him in football that we could've got for minimal cost (ahem, James). Arteta's idea at first was to adapt the squad to Özil--he quickly saw this wasn't worth it. Between adapting the team to Özil and going with the kind of conservative, adaptive approach we have now, the latter is clearly the better option. He's just not good anymore and people need to get over it, I loved Özil as much as anyone when he was still an effective player but he's no longer anymore, he's Adam Lallana but a bit more talented, who's so washed up that he can't even make a mark under a team full of little talent under a fantastic manager posession-based manager at Brighton.

Kovacic and Thiago are world-class players, Jorginho less so but a very good player too, but Ceballos can be near their level (Kovacic's anyways, Thiago with Kroos is quite simply the best deep lying playmaker around) with the right pairing. Xhaka is not it.

Sangare strikes me as the type of player who is talked about a lot on internet forums but I don't see a top level player there. He looks Doucoure-esque to me, or perhaps Richedly Bazoer at worst, the type of player that will always be surpassed by superior and more technically and tactically refined midfielders.

Ndidi is probably the best ball-winner in the game, but needs to be hidden in possession, like Torreira. If it weren't that way Madrid would be after him instead of waiting on Camavinga, who combines great ball-winning with ability in possession. Ndidi just doesn't have that, I wouldn't sign him.

Kamara, Renato Sanches, Guendouzi with patience and realising that he needs a lot of refining tactically and defensively, those are the backup options to Thomas I'd look at to pair with Ceballos. Kamara I honestly feel might end up being better than Thomas, but he doesn't have the same experience level or ball carrying ability. Anguissa is an interesting shout, he did very well for Villarreal and is a fine ball-carrier, though perhaps his dribbling stands out less in a the more physical Premier leaving him as just a mid-level player. Castrovilli is another one who is a brilliant ball-carrier and quite talented, not sure how he is defensively though, probably not the right profile to pair with Dani.
 
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Red London

Anti-Simp Culture
Trusted ⭐
He's done a good job not getting absolutely smashed at Anfield, we were in the game until late and I'm sure some Liverpool fans/players/staff were a bit nervy going into the last 10 after Laca missed the 1on1.

My criticism for Arteta was how safe he played it tonight. He dropped Gabriel (maybe to protect him) dropped Ceballos and didnt play Pepe. On top of that he started the slow Lacazette over Nketiah who could have pressed with more energy and been a threat on the counter.

We are a potentially an extremely quick team in attack so I think we should use that to our advantage in a game like this. We weren't ever going to have much possession of the ball so there was no point playing Willian and Lacazette in some ways (even if it was tough dropping them after a win), thats my opinion.
 

Kav

Established Member
Özil is washed up, I don't know why people are so obsessed with him. There are tonnes of #10s better than him in football that we could've got for minimal cost (ahem, James). Arteta's idea at first was to adapt the squad to Özil--he quickly saw this wasn't worth it. Between adapting the team to Özil and going with the kind of conservative, adaptive approach we have now, the latter is clearly the better option. He's just not good anymore and people need to get over it, I loved Özil as much as anyone when he was still an effective player but he's no longer anymore, he's Adam Lallana but a bit more talented, who's so washed up that he can't even make a mark under a team full of little talent under a fantastic manager posession-based manager at Brighton.

Kovacic and Thiago are world-class players, Jorginho less so but a very good player too, but Ceballos can be near their level (Kovacic's anyways, Thiago with Kroos is quite simply the best deep lying playmaker around) with the right pairing. Xhaka is not it.

Sangare strikes me as the type of player who is talked about a lot on internet forums but I don't see a top level player there. He looks Doucoure-esque to me, or perhaps Richedly Bazoer at worst, the type of player that will always be surpassed by superior and more technically and tactically refined midfielders.

Ndidi is probably the best ball-winner in the game, but needs to be hidden in possession, like Torreira. If it weren't that way Madrid would be after him instead of waiting on Camavinga, who combines great ball-winning with ability in possession. Ndidi just doesn't have that, I wouldn't sign him.

Kamara, Renato Sanches, Guendouzi with patience and realising that he needs a lot of refining tactically and defensively, those are the backup options to Thomas I'd look at to pair with Ceballos. Kamara I honestly feel might end up being better than Thomas, but he doesn't have the same experience level or ball carrying ability. Anguissa is an interesting shout, he did very well for Villarreal and is a fine ball-carrier, though perhaps his dribbling stands out less in a the more physical Premier leaving him as just a mid-level player. Castrovilli is another one who is a brilliant ball-carrier and quite talented, not sure how he is defensively though, probably not the right profile to pair with Dani.
Your comment is quite frankly irrelevant because you have nothing to base your assertion on other than his lack of play time which in regards to that specific player may be down to other reasons than pure football ones.

That being said Özil isn’t my focus either so me mentioning him shouldn’t get you triggered. That wasn’t even my point. I’m focused on the players that we do have that could have given us a different dimension in midfield in comparison to Xhaka, Elneny and Ceballos.

anyone who suggest that Guendouzi and Özil are not offering different skill sets than the aforementioned 3 do not understand the game.

As for your mentions. Kamara is not good enough and renato is a small league player. He has failed to live up to the hype. Camavinga is also all hype.
Sangare gives you the physicality in the middle but his mobility is his downside. Which is why I suggested Anguissa as he has great ball control and retention whose game is similar to moussa dembele.
 
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9jagooner

Well-Known Member
I don't think there was anything wrong with his starting 11. Elneny and Willian had done enough to be picked for what would be a difficult game at Anfield.
We were in the game and had Laca scored that goal at 2-1, we'll be saying something different now.
When we beat them in the league, it was similar. They had their chances and didn't take them and we took ours. Difference yesterday was that we didn't take that Laca chance and Auba's chance at 3-1.

That said, I'm glad fans are disappointed. We went to Anfield and fans are actually disappointed we didn't come away with a point. That is good.
 

scytheavatar

Established Member
anyone who suggest that Guendouzi and Özil are not offering different skill sets than the aforementioned 3 do not understand the game.

Elneny offers a different skill sets than our midfielder yet that didn't stop fans from ****ting on him....... different dimension doesn't equal better.
 

Dutch D

Well-Known Member & FPL Champion 19/20
He's done a good job not getting absolutely smashed at Anfield, we were in the game until late and I'm sure some Liverpool fans/players/staff were a bit nervy going into the last 10 after Laca missed the 1on1.

My criticism for Arteta was how safe he played it tonight. He dropped Gabriel (maybe to protect him) dropped Ceballos and didnt play Pepe. On top of that he started the slow Lacazette over Nketiah who could have pressed with more energy and been a threat on the counter.

We are a potentially an extremely quick team in attack so I think we should use that to our advantage in a game like this. We weren't ever going to have much possession of the ball so there was no point playing Willian and Lacazette in some ways (even if it was tough dropping them after a win), thats my opinion.
Agree.

I understand the pragmatic approach in the big games with 3atb, but at the same time we need to progress as a club if we want to get back to a solid CL team. Can't be afraid every match against a bigger team.

Should really start to transition towards more positive play (was furious with the 3atb against West Ham) and with the choices you mention we can do that despite holding on to negative tactics against the biggest teams.

Really hope we get Aouar in to transition to 4-3-3. Even if we don't I hope we see Saka back in LCM in that formation.

Leno
Maitland-Niles - Holding - Gabriel - Tierney
Elneny
Ceballos - Saka
Pepe - Nketiah - Auba
I really think this is the best we can field at the moment. With Willian as first rotation option for the 3 attacking midfielder options.
 

Jae

Well-Known Member
Needs to **** this 3-4-3 formation off ASAP. I suspect he's playing it because we have plodders like Xhaka and El Neny in midfield.
 

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