Mesut Özil: Think This Might Be It For Me(sut)

[Kav]

You seem to be arguing in favour of Kash2's argument that "no wonder liverpool get tonked 7-2 and city get smashed by leciester. Theres no one in the middle controlling the game." In another words that City wouldn't get smashed by Leicester if they had a player like Özil in the middle. Which is something I find extremely hard to agree with.

No I was not arguing that Özil would have made any difference to that outcome. I was just arguing that possession by itself does not equate to control.

In my opinion Özil is a proxy commander, as in He does his best work through others and he needs the right midfielders around him to influence games. By himself he can’t control or dictate a midfield or a flow of game. However with the right player (Cazorla, Alonso, Khedira, Modric) he can feed off them find the spaces and keep possession rotating then picking up the ball to make that good pass. He requires movement around him to be at his most effective (something Arsenal is not as most of our players stand up and watch the play).

 

[Football Manager]

No I was not arguing that Özil would have made any difference to that outcome. I was just arguing that possession by itself does not equate to control.

In my opinion Özil is a proxy commander, as in He does his best work through others and he needs the right midfielders around him to influence games. By himself he can’t control or dictate a midfield or a flow of game. However with the right player (Cazorla, Alonso, Khedira, Modric) he can feed off them find the spaces and keep possession rotating then picking up the ball to make that good pass. He requires movement around him to be at his most effective (something Arsenal is not as most of our players stand up and watch the play).

So you do acknowledge his weaknesses and limitations. That’s impressive. But you tried to ignore them and blame them on his teammates.

 

[Kav]

This thread has taken a nonsensical twist. Scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

Stop there. That’s control. What city did was exactly what they set out to do and that is their definition of controlling the game. Just because you think Leicester’s alleged plan to relinquish possession in order to execute their own strategy is your own definition of controlling a game, doesn’t make it so. Had City made more of their chances or shots and run them over 4-1 with 71% possession, which we’ve seen them do to teams on numerous times, nobody would argue that Leicester controlled the game. Well if it’s going to happen, let’s face it, it will probably happen in this thread...

Controlling the game doesn’t always bring you the result you’re after. That’s all there is to it. But you can’t go changing the definition of what controlling the game is when it doesn’t get the result.

As I said under normal circumstances I would have said that City had control of the game. However having watched that game I came to the conclusion that Leicester figures out how to play against city towards the end of the first half. By the time the second half came they had control of the game because they allowed city possession of the ball in the areas that would not hurt them. They attacked city effectively and got their goals not through some fluke like Tottenham did against Man U, but by opening up the spaces and making the right plays.

Once they were ahead it was easier for them to execute their strategy and thus control the sequence of important actions. Their strategy was so effective that it did give them control of the game. When they attacked with such drive city had to foul them to prevent them from scoring, both reducing the time left on the clock, granting them possession of the ball and putting pressure on their opponent.

I think you may agree with me if you think objectively. Possession does not equate to control. if I have you only playing where I want you to with no shots on my goal for example, I can say that I controlled the events of the game. I’m just acknowledging that there are more than one ways to achieve control.

 

[Tosker]

if he continues publicly commenting on Muslim politics he is going to find himself without a club full stop

not that I condemn him for so commenting, as long as the views he expresses are genuinely his, and I think it is actually rather brave of him, given he is criticizing terrorist regimes, but it is perhaps time he considered following his interests into a full-time political career

Imran Khan would make a good role model

 

[Football Manager]

No I was not arguing that Özil would have made any difference to that outcome. I was just arguing that possession by itself does not equate to control.

In my opinion Özil is a proxy commander, as in He does his best work through others and he needs the right midfielders around him to influence games. By himself he can’t control or dictate a midfield or a flow of game. However with the right player (Cazorla, Alonso, Khedira, Modric) he can feed off them find the spaces and keep possession rotating then picking up the ball to make that good pass. He requires movement around him to be at his most effective (something Arsenal is not as most of our players stand up and watch the play).

This is exactly what I have criticised him for.
Just as I’ve said here:

He is a great final passer. I’m not going to doubt that. I rate this part of his game as much as wenger and mourinho. And they certainly rate him because of this ability.

However, Özil has a lot of weaknesses that makes him an inconsistent player.

1) He doesn’t like to have the ball much/doesn’t want to involved a lot in the general play. Unlike other attacking midfielders, he doesn’t create supply for others. He need supply from others so that he can make his final pass. For this reason he looked very uninvolved in games, unless he has the chance to make those final passes. This lack of involvement in general play really hurt our possession game.

2) He doesn’t do much defensively

3) He can’t take on players/dribble past defenders like other attacking midfielders to create play for others.

In Madrid, all other players are :

1) good with general play (they have Benzema who will always drop deeper to help their build up, instead of a auba type who detached himself from the general play), so just having one uninvolved player like Özil is fine.

2) they are all pretty good at tracking back and defending, which covers for Özil weaknesses in this area.

3) they have the world top dribblers and skills masters to break opponent defence. Özil could just let others to do what he couldn’t.

In Madrid, he can just focus on making the final pass, which is the only thing he is good at.

At Arsenal, his weaknesses are exposed and he is inconsistent. Because if he gets no supply, he wouldn’t make his own supply. He couldn’t dribble his way out. So he did look invisible in quite a lot of games.

Madrid are setup with world class players to hide all of his many weaknesses and limitations. If you have that overpowering setup, you don’t really need Özil. But if you don’t have that setup then Özil will look invisible. Being invisible for 90mins, except for the second that he make the final pass. Do you see how useless of a player he is?

 

[Kav]

So you do acknowledge his weaknesses and limitations. That’s impressive. But you tried to ignore them and blame them on his teammates.

Wait what? How warped is your thought process to come to that conclusion?

I don’t understand how you can interpret my comment as blaming anything on his teammates.

So if I say that Giroud is more effective in a game where he gets good crosses to attack am I blaming his teammates? No. What I am doing is highlighting strengths and weaknesses.

This is why I hate this thread people come in here with their own preconceived notions of how things should be and what other posters are thinking. Just because I have an opinion on a sub topic does not mean I am arguing in favour or against a player.

 

[Kav]

This is exactly what we have criticised him for.
Just as I’ve said here:

Madrid are setup with world class players to hide all of his many weaknesses and limitations. If you have that overpowering setup, you don’t really need Özil. But if you don’t have that setup then Özil will look invisible.

We agree on that subject.

 

[GDeep™]

if he continues publicly commenting on Muslim politics he is going to find himself without a club full stop

not that I condemn him for so commenting, as long as the views he expresses are genuinely his, and I think it is actually rather brave of him, given he is criticizing terrorist regimes, but it is perhaps time he considered following his interests into a full-time political career

Imran Khan would make a good role model

Surprised to not see more condemnation of what is happening in China, from all quarters.

You have to respect someone like Özil putting himself out there. What’s happening in China is a modern day holocaust.

 

[UpTheGunnerz]

Surprised to not see more condemnation of what is happening in China, from all quarters.

You have to respect someone like Özil putting himself out there. What’s happening in China is a modern day holocaust.

Sure is, and he is right to speak out.

Could be awkward if Mkhi was still here i imagine, with the Nagorno Karabach confliclt ongoing. Russia/Armenia and Turkey/Azerbajdzjan

 

[Macho]

if he continues publicly commenting on Muslim politics he is going to find himself without a club full stop

He is correct in speaking out on his beliefs. Other mega rich megastars have acted cowardly when questioned on the same situation (Lebron).

Money talks, so people will continue to turn a blind eye to what's going on for now. In another era in the future people will look back and be horrified at all this.

Özil's relationship with Erdogan is frowned upon though, so it weakens his stance when he tries to come on that kinda vibe.

 

[celestis]

if he continues publicly commenting on Muslim politics he is going to find himself without a club full stop

not that I condemn him for so commenting, as long as the views he expresses are genuinely his, and I think it is actually rather brave of him, given he is criticizing terrorist regimes, but it is perhaps time he considered following his interests into a full-time political career

Imran Khan would make a good role model

It’s a human rights issue though Tosker not a Muslim one, and slowly they are
turning the screws on Hong Kong. I won’t mention what happens to dogs and cats , moon bears and endangered species. It’s beyond belief.

Imran is owned by China by the way.

 

[Red London]

Sure is, and he is right to speak out.

Could be awkward if Mkhi was still here i imagine, with the Nagorno Karabach confliclt ongoing. Russia/Armenia and Turkey/Azerbajdzjan

As an Armenian, I am not surprised Özil is going to say the **** he is saying. He is Erdogan's puppet it seems. Turkey have sent around 1,200 Syrian mercenaries to fight help fight against Armenia. To put it plainly the land in recent history has been occupied by Armenians and has been self governing despite being owned by Azerbaijan (land in this area is highly disputed due to the influence of the Ottomans and Soviets), they are trying to kick the Armenians out and take complete control of the area. Basically I think the issue is these big empires would take control of the land and when they were dissolved there was a lot of debate about who it belonged to. Small countries get shafted in this regard, thats why Armenia's holy mountain Mount Ararat is in Turkey.

Özil is continuing to try to further his political standing. The Ughur issue was okay to bring up as it was a big human rights issue, but to get involved in **** like this is unprofessional. I would get it if he was from either country and he was asking for aid or something but he's clearly feeding into Erdogan's meddling with the conflict (they are the only country apart from Armenia and Azerbaijan to be involved in the war, Russia isn't even doing so and apparently Putin is angered by Erdogan's actions).

I don't think I've ever seen a footballer engage so much in his country's politics as Özil. I will be shocked if he has anything to do with football in 5-6 years time.

 

[Makingtrax]

So you think a lesser opponent looking at stronger opponents weaknesses and exploiting them through specific drills or tactics set up by a manager is b*llocks and it's all luck?

What are you suggesting, the Leicester manager allowed City to have over twice as many shots as part of a master plan. And Leicester scoring with nearly all their chances was calculated in advance. It makes no sense if you think about it. And if Leicester can plan so meticulously, how come they lost at home 3-0 to West Ham and couldn't score with any of their chances.

Fans are so reluctant to accept the role of odds in football. Why, is totally beyond me.

 

[Makingtrax]

I'm not arguing that though, just seems trax has this thing for luck and I'm saying that, though they often are, winning on the back foot and luck aren't always mutually exclusive.

All managers of lower sides try to win on the back foot against the top teams but they nearly always need luck to pull it off. It's really that simple.

If it wasn't luck they'd win more often and wouldn't be a lower side. This isn't rocket science.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

No-one should need a tweet from Özil's PR team to know that what is happening to Uyghurs in China is an abhorrent, disgrace to humanity.

Unfortunately no-one is going to hold the CCP to account. They'll continue to do what they want to these poor for people for a long as they want.

The best you'll get is mealy mouthed half condemnations from western world leaders and maybe some symbolic sanctions. None of them are going to pick a fight with the worlds next super power over a group of people most of the world had never heard of 5 years ago.

That's just the sad reality.

 

[Red London]

He is correct in speaking out on his beliefs. Other mega rich megastars have acted cowardly when questioned on the same situation (Lebron).

Money talks, so people will continue to turn a blind eye to what's going on for now. In another era in the future people will look back and be horrified at all this.

Özil's relationship with Erdogan is frowned upon though, so it weakens his stance when he tries to come on that kinda vibe.

It’s a human rights issue though Tosker not a Muslim one, it’s being belief and slowly they are turning the screws on Hong Kong. I won’t mention what happens to dogs and cats , moon bears and endangered species. It’s beyond belief.

Imran is owned by China by the way.

His comments on the Ughurs were right even though it put the club in a tricky position. But he is now getting involved in the wars that his country and his supreme leader Erdogan are meddling with. I get human right activism but propoganda and politics like that has no place in football.

 

[Makingtrax]

You can control a match even when you give up possession. Look how many times in the wenger era teams packed the center of the pitch to force us wide, when we had no target man, thus nullifying our biggest attacking threat and making us toothless in the process. Mourinho made a living of controlling the game without possession.

Mourinho won against managers like Wenger because he had better players, if he'd been managing Bournemouth, 9 times out if 10 he'd have lost. Wenger regularly beat lower sides otherwise he wouldn't have got top 4 every year for 20 years.

 

[Godwin1]

What are you suggesting, the Leicester manager allowed City to have over twice as many shots as part of a master plan. And Leicester scoring with nearly all their chances was calculated in advance. It makes no sense if you think about it. And if Leicester can plan so meticulously, how come they lost at home 3-0 to West Ham and couldn't score with any of their chances.

Fans are so reluctant to accept the role of odds in football. Why, is totally beyond me.

All managers of lower sides try to win on the back foot against the top teams but they nearly always need luck to pull it off. It's really that simple.

If it wasn't luck they'd win more often and wouldn't be a lower side. This isn't rocket science.

I'm not suggesting you're wrong, actually you're generally right regarding this luck thing but it's not so clear cut as you're making it sound. It's sometimes possible that a manager of a smaller team has figured something out against a specific team.

 

[freeglennhelder2]

if he continues publicly commenting on Muslim politics he is going to find himself without a club full stop

not that I condemn him for so commenting, as long as the views he expresses are genuinely his, and I think it is actually rather brave of him, given he is criticizing terrorist regimes, but it is perhaps time he considered following his interests into a full-time political career

Imran Khan would make a good role model

Maybe not the best role model eh? :rofl:

“China has been a great friend. It has helped us in our most difficult times because of the economic crisis my government inherited. Therefore, we do talk about things with China privately, not publicly, as these are sensitive issues." - Imran Khan, Jan 2020

 

[freeglennhelder2]

Surprised to not see more condemnation of what is happening in China, from all quarters.

You have to respect someone like Özil putting himself out there. What’s happening in China is a modern day holocaust.

Dont you mean “disappointed”? Surely you can’t be surprised that most individuals, organisations and governments shy away from openly rebuking this £conomic $uperpower