2 Ramsey Questions

[Armor for Sleep]

Surely the Ramsey Wilshere and Cesc midfield but we worth a go in Europe? Lets say our first CL game is at home v someone like Anderlecht, i think it would be a good time to test it out.

 

[Yousif Arsenal]

I Would love to see ramsey wilshere fabregas at midfield but the problem no one from them can play a defense midfielder i dont think wenger will play 3 CM's

 

[DK Gooner]

I Would love to see ramsey wilshere fabregas at midfield but the problem no one from them can play a defense midfielder i dont think wenger will play 3 CM's

I don't think we actually need to play one most of the time. Our strength is ball retention and we actually gained the upper hand against Barca in the first leg when we had a midfield trio of Nasri, Cesc and Wilshere, having replaced Song who was ineffective as the holding midfielder. Having an option on the bench to revert to a DM in midfield would be more than adequate if the system is not working. Wilshere, Cesc and Ramsey have the ability to track back and pressurise opponents. We work best when we able to transition the ball quickly from defence to attack, and thus having JW, CF and AR could facilitate a more efficient team performance.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

@ DK Gooner

I totally agree, against highly technical opponents (Barca) it is virtually pointless playing a Song or a Diaby in midfield as you will often need to press them into mistakes - the opportunity to bully them off the ball physically just isn't there...and when you get the ball, you need to keep it as best you can.

 

[sammy89]

with all these threads promoting the notion of slotting Ramsey into the first team, just goes to show that we're still not appreciating the value of experience, which is the crux of our problems right now. Ramsey and Wilshere should be nowhere near the first team if you ask me.

 

[AnthonyG]

Experience is important, yes, and I would like us maybe to pick up another centre mid with experience, one who can organise and do a good defensive shift etc., but you can't deny the exceptional talents that are Aaron and Jack.

 

[Mr. Hotshot]

After his heroics against Man Utd? I would say yes, play him. No point selecting a player 1 week, and then to put him back in the bench if you know the player has worked hard enough to gain his place in the team.

 

[outlaw_member]

What about a Wilshere, Ramsey, Fabregas midfield?

That will work if they are both interchanging wich is impossible to defend against we saw it against United Ramsey and Wilshere were constantly interchanging. this will make us far more less predictable

Against Utd, it was Song who completely nullified Rooney and caused their midfield to collapse. To me it's pointless playing both Ramsey and Fabregas together, that would be equlivent to playing both Lampard and Gerrard together. I have a hard time seeing those 2 working well together as we only need one guy to lead our midfield.

Lampard and Gerrard only failed as a duo, because Sven, McClaren nor Capello thought to place an anchorman behind them. Possibly due to the fact that they've never really had a good one in England. It was the equivalent of playing Iniesta and Xavi in a 2 man midfield, which too would have failed on an epic scale.

 

[Y va marquer]

What happened to Frimpong? I read somewhere that he's recovered? Could he feature at all this season?

He's no longer listed as injured but he didn't play for the reserves last week.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsenal.com/match-menu/3387884/reserves/man-utd-res-v-arsenal-res?tab=report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.arsenal.com/match-menu/33878 ... tab=report</a>

I see Aliadiere did though :mrgreen:

 

[outlaw_member]

Play him till the end of the season in place of Fabregas?

And if his role ultimately a squad player (backup to Fabregas) or will he be a Fabregas replacement?

1.) Yes, if Fabs isn't fit / won't be playing for us due to other reasons.

2.) This question is imo difficult to answer, because there're other questions coming with that as well, mainly:
Do we need a 1:1 replacement for Fabs, once he's left us?
I don't think so.

I don't want us to be too reliant on the creativity of one certain player, I don't want us to be too reliant on the fitness of one player, and I don't want us to be too predictable in our play, because of the over-reliance on one certain player.

With Ramsey alongside Jack, those "duties" are imo better shared between each other, none of both is some sort of restricted in his game due to the quality of a world class player like Fabs alongside him.

So basically, I don't see Ramsey himself as a Fabs replacement, but the combination of Ramsey and Jack.
Of course, I've only seen one game with both playing, but imo the chemistry looks right and the whole midfield was perfectly balanced in that game.

No question, that that's possible with Fabs playing either (re balance), but not in his current role.

It is a given that we won't find a player who can replicate Fabregas's creative ability, but there are other CM's who can offer qualities which could still improve the team. Even a relatively underwhelming replacement like Sahin, who would be a different type of midfielder, would enable us to configure a different midfield set up and alter the manner in which it functions. Which could even turn out to be for better of the team.

The worst thing we could do is expect Ramsey and Wilshere to suffice in his departure, provided Cesc leaves within the next two years or so, because they simply won't be ready, or good enough to perform consistently over an entire season.

Like others have mentioned, I'd sign another creative CM to replace Fabregas, so that we have 3 options in the midfield who can offer creative passing. Whilst, also improving the front line so that there is a lesser need for an incisive pass.

 

[outlaw_member]

with all these threads promoting the notion of slotting Ramsey into the first team, just goes to show that we're still not appreciating the value of experience, which is the crux of our problems right now. Ramsey and Wilshere should be nowhere near the first team if you ask me.

Absolutely. Even with Wilshere having proven to be somewhat consistent throughout the season, his level has dropped considerably in the final run-in. I wouldn't describe him as exceptional going by his start or finish to this season. He had one great spell around January, but he's generally flattered to deceive at times, if you overlook his circumstances (debut season, 19 years of age, blah, blah).

 

[Shue]

What happened to Frimpong? I read somewhere that he's recovered? Could he feature at all this season?

He's no longer listed as injured but he didn't play for the reserves last week.
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.arsenal.com/match-menu/3387884/reserves/man-utd-res-v-arsenal-res?tab=report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.arsenal.com/match-menu/33878 ... tab=report</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see Aliadiere did though :mrgreen:

Frimpong was just over playing in the Dallas Cup

 

[DK Gooner]

with all these threads promoting the notion of slotting Ramsey into the first team, just goes to show that we're still not appreciating the value of experience, which is the crux of our problems right now. Ramsey and Wilshere should be nowhere near the first team if you ask me.

Absolutely. Even with Wilshere having proven to be somewhat consistent throughout the season, his level has dropped considerably in the final run-in. I wouldn't describe him as exceptional going by his start or finish to this season. He had one great spell around January, but he's generally flattered to deceive at times, if you overlook his circumstances (debut season, 19 years of age, blah, blah).

I like Ramsey as a player and did not consider him anywhere near the first team but his performance against united last week rekindled my desire to see an all passing CM trio. My point about a Cesc, Ramsey, Wilshere trio was more of a theoretical model to counter the notion that we need start with a dedicated DM. I have put forward the notion of Nasri slotting into the AM role before and likewise would rather have a better more-experienced alternative to JW until he becomes the player that we hope he will be. Song and Diaby will have their moments, but there are limitations to their ability and as such do not want them to be first-teamers. Song's success was against United was largely down to Fergie getting his tactics wrong IMO as Lee Dixon explains in his analysis:

Many of United's problems this season, particularly away from home, have stemmed from their midfield, where an insistence on playing with two central midfielders has seen them concede possession.

That was the case again against Arsenal, when Michael Carrick and Anderson were continually picked off by the Gunners central midfield trio of Alex Song, Jack Wilshere and goalscorer Aaron Ramsey.

Ferguson usually picks a midfield three to match Arsenal and opts to break on the counter attack, but this time was different as he asked Wayne Rooney to drop deep and track Song.

The reasons for that may have come from a recent success in playing Rooney behind Javier Hernandez, not least in the comfortable 2-0 victory over Schalke last Tuesday.

Yet without an extra body in midfield, and with the influential Ryan Giggs absent through illness, Song quickly found a way to join Arsenal's attack and at the same time neutralise Rooney.

In fact, such was Rooney's role that he did not make a touch in the Arsenal penalty box.

"I was surprised by how Manchester United set up," says former Arsenal defender and Match of the Day 2 pundit Lee Dixon. "I know Rooney can drop in and act as another midfielder but they really played a 4-4-1-1 and I think that was down to the personnel available.

"Although Rooney will drop back, he is not the best at wanting to and any Arsenal fan would have been happy to see him back there anyway.

"There were a couple of times when he was behind Carrick and Anderson in that holding role. I was thinking, what is he doing there? Basically, it was because they were short in that area.

"I'm pretty sure that, when it comes to facing Chelsea, Sir Alex Ferguson won't pick his side to play like that next week. They got overrun in midfield, but having said that, Arsenal didn't create too much."

In a hectic April, when United's big games came thick and fast, Giggs' impact was a common thread.

United's best two performances in recent weeks were away in the Champions League against Chelsea at the quarter-final stage and Schalke in the first leg of the semi-final, where the 37-year looked indefatigable.

Compare that with Sunday's defeat by Arsenal and the FA Cup semi-final loss to Manchester City two weeks ago where on both occasions the Welshman was missing.

Both defeats also came against sides who flooded the midfield and Chelsea boss Carlo Ancelotti may consider a similar policy in the game at Old Trafford next Sunday.

Even Lassana Diarra who many would say is a better DM than Song, struggled against Barca as his inferior technique in tight spaces and general decision making when pressed heavily by the Catalans rendered him more of a liability than an asset. We got an advantage as we were able to outnumber United in midfield when previously we have lost out when they played 3 in CM. When the opposition does match us in formation, we need to have players that can do a job better than them in the style we have adopted.

We have geared up to play a passing style and we will become a far more effective team if we can transition the ball quickly from defence to attack. Koscielny for all his defensive lapses can provide a great platform for attacks with his timely ability to intercept. His passing and decision-making when in possession at such times needs to be a bit quicker and sharper. Likewise JW does so much right close to our own box, but poor execution and decision-making lets him and the team down closer to the final 1/3. He may not have full attacking licence, but his role actually means he is far harder to mark and he does get sufficient opportunities to attack the box. Mores the pity that he just does not utilise those chances, but I'm sure that will come with a bit of time. I have not seen enough of Ramsey to know how well suited he is to slot into the team on a more regular basis, but his technique is very good as his two-footedness gives him far more time and options than many others. Unfortunately experience is lacking.

 

[fabo]

Diarra was excellent against Barcelona.

Ramsey struggles more than Song when pressed heavily if you ask me, at this stage anyway.

 

[Shue]

Song is 3 years older

 

[fabo]

So? The question is being asked now.

 

[AnthonyG]

You haven't seen enough of Ramsey now to make that conclusion yet.

 

[fabo]

:roll:

Good point.

 

[Shue]

The other point is we're not saying never play Song, we're saying that in some matches a 3 of Cesc/Wilshere/Ramsey could well prove more effective.

 

[fabo]

Could try it against Villa, home game against a pretty attacking side.

If we could somehow get shot of Denilson and Diaby and get in one more reliable CM, we may just have a great midfield again.