3 Midfielders Is The Way Forward - The 4-4-2 Is Dead

[kel varnsen]

4-4-2 will work against your group a teams, if the lines are close to each other. meaning, that the team operates as one unit. so that there always are 2-3 players near the ball, both when defending and going forward. in doing so, the extra man in midfield is rendered ineffective. the numerical superiority is nullified.

I think you are asking for far too much. A team cannot possibly play possession football, whilst hard court pressing off the ball, akin to Arrigo Sacchi's AC Milan Dream Team. It's completely unfeasible, in my opinion.

it's not so much about all out pressing, but rather staying defensively compact. meaning, there is little room in between the lines(back four, midfield, attackers). exactly where you begin chasing the ball, varies. sometimes you sit back and wait and sometimes you push up and chase the ball pretty much all the time.

as for possession, it's a matter of degrees. it might be related to 3 vs. 2 man central midfield, but it is not determined by it. it all depends on how you execute it.

what i do like about 4-4-2, is that the wide midfielders can drift inwards and open up space for the full backs. that is one issue that seems problematic with a five man midfield. gets "congested" fairly quickly.

 

[hackajack]

I think you are asking for far too much. A team cannot possibly play possession football, whilst hard court pressing off the ball, akin to Arrigo Sacchi's AC Milan Dream Team. It's completely unfeasible, in my opinion.

The problem isn't so much that Fabregas and co. don't want to press the opposition and regain the ball. They just aren't capable of doing so. Players like Vieira, Rijkaard or Gullit are just too rare.

I think you'll see Barca doing it against Chelsea over the two legs. While they keep the ball they also aggressively hunt it down when they don't have it. Chelsea didn't get the ball often and when they did they were hounded into giving it straight back much of the time.

 

[FrankArsenal]

I agree with Kel that it's very much about how you execute things. You can play 4-4-2 with either the LM or RM helping the CM's at times. Nasri would be perfectly capable of that. And dare I say: So would Eboue when playing RM.

Outlaw, you said that last year we had three great CM's: Cesc, Flamini and Hleb but I think Hleb played rather much as a RM except for some matches in the beginning of the season: we played 4-4-2 a lot of times. But I may agree that we played 4-5-1 against the bigger teams last year and we did well last year against the bigboys.

But I do think it's not so much about the formation, I don't think we would thrive playing 4-3-3. And barca (group a) couldn't creat against Chelski (group a).. so does 4-3-3 really make a difference.

 

[patrick42uk]

I always refer to last season as the season of the 4cm system. Incidentally it was born at the end of the season prior and the strategy confirmed when we went into the season with practially all central players as the constituents of our midfield squad. I didnt like the fact we had no genuine wide players but one thing i did like, the point kel makes, is the protection of the back four it afforded. The four played close together and as a unit which made us very difficult to break down. Then of course in possesion we were brilliant; the beauty of the central midfielder of course being that he can operate competently both ways. West Ham, incidentally played that 4 cm system for large parts of this season with Behrami, Noble, Parker and Collison. Not quite Hleb/Eboue, Flamini, Cesc and Rosicky of course.

Of course the system had its weakness i.e. the lack of goals from midfield. I suppose Cesc offered that penetration in the early stage of the season, but it wasnt consistent. Thats were Arshavin came in. If we went into this season with Cesc, Flamini, Rosicky, Arshavin, we'd have won the league.

 

[cloista]

Reposted from the DM wouldn't work thread, as it's equally releveant here:

I'd play a 4-3-3/4-3-1-2 (i'd be tempted to play Arshavin in the hole rather than as a wider forward) with a central 3 instreucted to play box to box, and the defence under orders to sit, the fullbacks especially. This way, we'd have 7 players when defending, and 6 when attacking.

And the central 3? Rosicky left, Cesc central, and Nasri on the right. All can put in a shift defensively, Rosicky and Nasri have more pace and can naturally proivde a little width on attack and know how to protect their fullback.

I'd then play Arshavin (and Bendtner as his cover) in a free role in the hole, and the two up to stretch the defense, with complimentary attributes - a pace merchant (Theo/Vela) and a finisher (Eduardo/RvP).

 

[qs]

I think its a bit much to say 4-4-2 is dead or that it can't work. Football hasn't changed so much in 5 years that all of a sudden one of the most popular formations of all time is now redundant. Reminds me of when Mourinho had Chelsea playing their variation of 4-5-1 and half the league switched to it.

Personally I hate 4-5-1 for us. The only time I ever remember it being successful was in the CL run to the final. We are an attacking team and to me 4-5-1 is a negative formation. If we want to play a 3 man midfield then we should go with a Barca like 4-3-3 system. I think we have the players for that, especially in the first 11.

Yaya - Song/someone new
Xavi - Fabregas/Denilson
Iniesta - Nasri/Rosicky
Messi - Arshavin/RVP
Eto'o - Adebayor/Bendtner
Henry - Eduardo/Vela

Of course a couple of new faces in there wouldn't hurt either. Especially in the Song position as with that sort of formation it becomes crucial that whoever plays there is able to do a solid defensive job ie. not Denilson or Nasri.

 

[thegame24]

oi qs i said that yesterday in the barca thread you cheeky cu...

 

[qs]

I didn't realise that cos I don't read your posts. Wait a minute than what am I replying to... :bounce

 

[arsenalfc0719]

Well still I can't understand how everybody seems to think that Edu can play as a main striker.

And what are our wingers in a 4-3-3 going to do? Cross the ball to our great headers?

Our wingers would be providing incisive passes to our striker and other midfielders and winger, as well as making purposeful runs into the box.

I still can't understand how lots of people seem to think that the main striker has to be a big guy, that's not true, especially in our case, were we don't need our main striker to hold on to the ball meanwhile everyone goes forward. Main striker has to move intelligently, get into dangerous positions and provide an outlet for the midfield to pass the ball to. Eduardo can do just that, which is why I think he could easily play the main striker role.

 

[cloista]

A 4-3-3 doesn't have wingers anyway, that's a 4-5-1. A 4-3-3 has wider playing forwards, or wing-forwards if you want to call them that, who naturally play in the channels and therefore far more centrally than wingers, and as such have far more creative options than to 'cross it into our big headers'.

 

[bojed]

i'll just stick to what i've always said, formation never wins you anything. execution of said formation does.

4-4-2 or 4-5-1, it's just a matter of getting the most of the squad at a given moment(match).

4-4-2 will work against your group a teams, if the lines are close to each other. meaning, that the team operates as one unit. so that there always are 2-3 players near the ball, both when defending and going forward. in doing so, the extra man in midfield is rendered ineffective. the numerical superiority is nullified.

i'd say it doesn't really matter which formation wenger choses. it's not an important issue in the big scheme of things.

Spot on.

It's not that difficult to find decent wingers. I think it's more to Arsène preferring attacking midfielders who can play both centrally or out wide, due to his philosophy of the "passing the ball" game. Generally, an AMC/MC is a better passer than a winger. Fits the bill.

Actually our 4-4-2 isn't that bad. In full attacking mode, we would have 8 players above the half way line. But it means **** all if all we do is passing the ball back and forth with players not moving around quickly enough. Our FBs can't cross for the life of a dying whale, and when they do put in decent ones, who the hell is going to header the ball home? Ade is on the left flank, RvP is outside of the box, Cesc and Nasri would be lucky *****es if they can challenge a header against 6" CBs and Arshavin needs to be on top of a bus to header the ball.

There's a way of compensating that disadvantage. Our "wingers" (or wide men according to A-M) need to make those darting runs like what Bobby and Freddie used to do. Just follow 3 steps back so that the FBs can have options of cutting the ball back.

For the wide men to be effective, they need to have other players to be close to them. A box-to-box midfielder is the best answer. Passing the ball back to the FB in this current crop would usually mean nullifying every attacking moves that were made. You know, a ping-pong game between Nasri and Clichy, which eventually ends at Almunia's feet. ****ing hell.

But having Cesc in the team changes most of the things we used to do, not to mention we are playing more long balls since we have Ade.

I'm actually tired right now, so I don't feel like elaborating more. Goodnight.

 

[Webdesignlab]

When Barca win the CL all this talk will be redundant thank God.

 

[bojed]

When Barca win the CL all this talk will be redundant thank God.

Until we're 4th again and got thrown out of the CC, FA cup and CL come this December :wink:

 

[Webdesignlab]

No, you misunderstand me. I mean all this talk of no 442.


Chelsea lost ... it is massive optimism for great football. I mean it.

 

[bojed]

I get what you meant mate.

Hence the :wink:

 

[Zico]

Webdesign, why is this 4 4 2 talk redundant? Barca themselves line up with a 4 3 3 on most nights; plus the quality of their players is sufficient to overcome most types of teams regardless of formation. Barca would absorb Clichy and Gallas into their starting 11, and nobody else. We have to rely a lot on team-work and coordination to overcome our quality disabilities.

 

[Wryer]

We can go 4-4-2, or 4-3-3, depending on the opponents. And as correctly pointed out, it is the execution of the formation that makes or break. On this end, we fail terribly.

As much as the 4-3-3 looks glamorous, we don't have the correct players that will help us make the execution perfect. IMO, a 4-3-3 needs a very powerful core of players. The 3 in the midfield must be full of running, tackling, attacking. Basically three players who can do almost everything. Truth to be told, we only have one single player who can do that consistently - Alex Song. Denilson is far too weak and offensively clueless to contribute to a 3-man midfield. Diaby looks like an immense prospect, and to be honest, he is built for a 4-3-3 midfield. But he has not developed to the level that we need. Do you honestly see any improvement on a 2006 Diaby and a 2009 Diaby? And finally, our favorite Cesc Fabregas. Can he play a fulcrum role in a 4-3-3? He looks to have shown occasions where he can be call upon and play a feisty midfield role (Blackburn, Milan), but all that seems to be exceptions rather than norm.

Going on to comparisons, I dare say Chelsea are the best exponents of 4-3-3. The axis of Essien - Lampard - Ballack is quite honestly second to none. And that midfield has everything you need to perfect a 4-3-3. Power, tackling, running, bite, aerial ability, attack. We don't even come close to that. Man Utd comes close with Anderson - Carrick - Hargreaves. That's another good 4-3-3 midfield with less bite, but more technique. Again, we don't come close. And then we have Liverpool with their Alonso - Garrard - Mascherano axis. Again, good and powerful midfield that dominates games.

Now, look at ours. This is probably the axis who is best suited to play a 4-3-3 for us, Diaby - Cesc - Song. One look and you know we have a big problem. And AW screws up further by putting in Nasri in there, making it a Nasri - Song - Cesc combo. I can see what he is trying to do. He wants to emulate the Iniesta - Toure - Xaxi axis. But sorry, we are miles from level, at least not in the forseeable 2 years. Make that 4 years.

I don't see any of Denilson and Diaby making the grade. Unless they have a Flamini-like transformation. Even Song's metamorphosis don't make him a 100% starter in a 4-3-3. There are still a lot of rough edges for him - clean tackling and tracking, not good enough yet.

Solution? Sorry to say, I'm jumping on the bandwagon that we have to buy if want to have a 4-3-3 that can combat PL opponents. Keep Song and Denilson to watch and learn from the sidelines. Coquelin and Ramsey are too young to be considered an option. I can see Song making it in future, say 3 years, but Denilson for a squad role.

In honesty, it would be dreaming to imagine AW bringing two players to complement Cesc in a 4-3-3. By the way, I'm grudgingly putting in Cesc in the 4-3-3, because he is the captain, and he has that killer pass in him. Stopping short of a wishlist, bring in Yaya Toure to anchor that midfield. Immense power and height. Good technical skills to fit in our style. Look at how he ousted Drogba - None of our first, second, third team player can do that. As for the remaining spot, my heart says Tomas Rosicky is a good choice with his attack-defence balance, but he may be a little too small for my liking. Perhaps we can rotate Tomas and Song depending on the opposition. Whoever is slightly forward or backward is not an issue. With 4-3-3, the midfield trio is as good as a flat midfield, with breakouts from one of them occasionally. Alot of the attacking play comes from the front 3. So, here's my humble suggestion:


Cesc - Y.Toure - Song/Rosicky

With such a midfield, we absolutely need the attacking trio to be of true cutting edge ability. So that mean no dear boy Theo Walcott. Possession is going to be so precious.

Arshavin - STRIKER - Nasri

Why "STRIKER"? Because I have no clue who can play there. As mentioned before, with a 4-3-3, we need a very powerful core who can take care of the ball. Adebayor is not one. Neither is Bendtner. Eduardo, Vela, Walcott are too small. They will more likely be deputies to Arshavin and Nasri. Again, money is required.

Sorry for my longish post. I'm a fan of 4-3-3, but I feel we are miles off perfecting that, given our players' quality.

Finally, don't blast me for suggesting that we buy players. That's the stark reality we face, and if AW wants to wait for Denilson and Diaby to develop over the next 4 years. I say, dream on.

 

[Captain]

i'll just stick to what i've always said, formation never wins you anything. execution of said formation does.

4-4-2 or 4-5-1, it's just a matter of getting the most of the squad at a given moment(match).

That's the point though; we need to get back to having one formation which we can execute properly because right now we play a few different combinations and the players look lost sometimes.

4-3-3 gets more out of our squad currently than a 4-4-2 because it lightens Cesc's defensive load and lets Arshavin and Walcott play closer to the opposition box. It still needs tweaking but it is the way forward if we are going to persist with these players.

Interestingly, when Arshavin played upfront in the 4-4-2 he played more as an orthodox striker than a no.10.

 

[Anzac]

Keep faith guys: 4-4-2 is the way to go with attacking fullbacks and incoming/creative LM/RM's.

our full backs don't add much to the attack, at least they have not done so this season.

Well still I can't understand how everybody seems to think that Edu can play as a main striker. He doesn't seem to have the physical build to lead the line... he would be great with a big guy alongside him and a team of passers around him: Cesc, Nasri, Rosicky, Arshavin.

And what are our wingers in a 4-3-3 going to do? Cross the ball to our great headers?

Eduardo did more against Ferdinand in 10 minutes than Ade managed in the previous 80.

And I don't want out & out wingers in a 433 - I want wing forwards who will look to score - as in Barca's front line.

 

[Anzac]

If we had the personnel to do it, I'd prefer to play a 4-3-2-1, which is essentially a 4-3-3. But with our current squad, I don't think we can do it. I think if we did play a 4-3-3, we'd need 2 new midfielders though to partner Cesc. Maybe an Alonso and Toulalan. Then you play Arshavin and Walcott ahead of them, with Eduardo ahead of those two. Toulalan would sit deep as Cesc and Alonso pressed up when we had possession, but Alonso and Cesc are both smart enough and capable enough to track back and play defense.

Hmmm.

I'd only play 4321 or ANY lone striker formation if that striker was a beast to hold up the ball & bring the support into play (not Ade's game), or they were quick & mobile & profficient like Torres.

I'd prefer a 4231 because the striker has support & options close at hand, whereas the 4321 can see him isolated too easily IMO.