4-3-3/Diamond

[IBL]

But Hleb isnt much of a goal scorer....yet. I'm sure he has the ability to score a variety of goals but I think he's caught the 'Arsenal disease' of trying to pass the ball into the net since his short time with us. He is an assists machine and he can definitely play that supporting striker role but I'd much rather have two prolific scorers up front and we have that in the sahpe of RvP and Henry.

 

[kamikaze80]

well it was good enough to give them a 3 goal lead at halftime...

anyway i think he has a point tho, milans midfielders just have so much more class and versatility than ours. i suppose flamini could be our gattuso, cesc could be our seedorf but gilberto is nowhere near pirlo. hleb or reyes could be our kaka. but in every instance, our version is worse. we dont have the personnel to make it work.

wenger might keep the 4-3-3 against newcastle:
http://www.arsenal.com/article.asp?arti ... ion+switch

i will now concede that wenger actually sees reyes as a striker. i guess he was demoted to LM cos his form was just that poor.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

Looks like Hleb is going to be the goto guy..if we go to the 4-3-3 system. He is the only guy I think who can really pull that off at the moment..Its not a bad try..
I don't think RvP/Henry combination works well with a 4-3-3 unless you push Henry to the outside strikers..cos RvP won't perform well as one of the outside strikers. Henry can but i doubt he will be happy about it. He likes drifting outside but its a whole new thing making him stay there. However Reyes, will be a perfect fit for the 4-3-3 , and combination of gilberto/Cesc/Hleb a perfect fit for midfield. I don't see Freddie's effectiveness on a 4-3-3 (midfield or upfront) and to a certain degree Pires unless he is one of the 3 Midfielders.

 

[kamikaze80]

if we do a 4-3-3, we should model it after barca's.

----------lehmann---------
lauren-toure-campbell-cole
-----------gilberto-----------
-----fabregas---hleb-------
reyes-----------------henry
-------------rvp-------------

i feel like this could actually work, provided that reyes can score again. hleb assumes the deco role and picks out passes to the forwards all day, with an extra dribbling penetration dimension.

tell henry to assume the ronaldinho role - he'll still get his goals, he can still time his runs to beat the offside trap thru long diagonals from cesc and ronnie has shown you can be player of the yr from there. ronnie accepted the new system where play goes thru deco instead of thru him - henry should learn similar humility and team spirit

we also dont really have a xavi, either. fabregas is a little more offence-minded, probably closer to a deco. and we'd still need another DM and a play-making CM for depth.

totally agree with mbaki. pires would be worthless, tho the old pires couldve played the ronnie role with aplomb. freddie would probably be isolated as a right forward unless he got support from midfield or lauren on an overlap. we'd have to change personnel in terms of squad players.

 

[Canuck]

if we do a 4-3-3, we should model it after barca's.

----------lehmann---------
lauren-toure-campbell-cole
-----------gilberto-----------
-----fabregas---hleb-------
reyes-----------------henry
-------------rvp-------------

i feel like this could actually work, provided that reyes can score again. hleb assumes the deco role and picks out passes to the forwards all day, with an extra dribbling penetration dimension.

tell henry to assume the ronaldinho role - he'll still get his goals, he can still time his runs to beat the offside trap thru long diagonals from cesc and ronnie has shown you can be player of the yr from there. ronnie accepted the new system where play goes thru deco instead of thru him - henry should learn similar humility and team spirit

we also dont really have a xavi, either. fabregas is a little more offence-minded, probably closer to a deco. and we'd still need another DM and a play-making CM for depth.

I likey

 

[kamikaze80]

I likey

thanks buddy!

to make this work tho, we'd really need quality depth in midfield (good passers, good in possession), otherwise it will all fall apart. edu and vieira wouldve been useful, but looking forward, im not sure who we could bring in who is a) available and b) has the necessary attributes.

 

[eddie_wills]

a shame http://www.arsenal.com/article.asp?arti ... ion+switch hasn't got his own thread, because that is a very interesting article.

Reyes no future at LM? Hleb to be tried in the middle? Settles a few debates that often rage on here.

 

[Gurgen]

Settles those debates in our favour eh Rock? :wink:

 

[Courier]

Formation is irrelevant until we regain a midfield spine. There is no body without a torso.


Henry -- RVP

Pires-hleb-Cesc-Freddie

Toure/flamini

Senderos/gilbert/eboue-campbell-Lauren

lehmann

Good point mate, I see that many Gilberto 'fans' are now saying he needs help, well I agree, out the door :!: Our spine is weak but in all honesty Gilberto makes it weaker.This bulls*!t about him doing the simple thing does not wash with me and Bolton once again proved his weakness.Can anyone name a single game he has been MOM this season? We need an engine room I think in 2 years Cesc will be a major force but for now I see a combination of Diop with say someone like Graveson (or even one of the Rio's Coker or Muvuba) really making our attacking players tick and breaking up opposing attacks.Quite simply this was one of our fundementle strengths with Vieira/Petit/Edu. I feel that a 4-2-3-1 is the way forward the 2 being agressive ball winners who can PLAY with the 3 I would use Henry, Helb and Reyes the 1 would Ideally suit a more target type player. I think V Persie could do it but Torres would be perfect.

Another option if we got Diop which I understand is a good possibility is to push Lauren or Kolo in there if we do not buy someone else alongside him, and if its Kolo then a C/h is essential.Having said that I doubt Wenger has any intentions of following my advice :cry:

 

[kel varnsen]

keep 4-4-2. it's what the players know. no need to change things around just for the sake of changing. formation doesn't win matches, players do...

 

[kamikaze80]

if we're not going to bring in players to fit the formation that we've been using, then we should change the formation to suit the strengths of the players we have now.

the composition of our squad is different in the post-bergkamp/pires/vieira era because we now have 2 goalscoring strikers. reyes can be a third, but he has shown that hes not really suited to be a striker nor a wide midfielder, partly because his best position is henry's. the CM's we have in the squad now are also a different breed from what we have had in the past. the goal is to accommodate all of our best players so that they are all doing what they are best at.

anyway if we switched to a 4-3-3, i doubt it would be a static one, we would remain fluid, with players switching flanks and midfielders and fullbacks making supporting runs forward and generally wreaking havoc.

 

[kel varnsen]

if we're not going to bring in players to fit the formation that we've been using, then we should change the formation to suit the strengths of the players we have now.

thing is, the players are, and have been for a long time, training within a particular formation. the different roles and movement pattern is probably something the players work on every day. changing formation is not something you do with a switch of a button. for example, the central midfielders in a 4-3-3 do not have the same 'roles' or 'positions' in the team as the central midfielder in a 4-4-2. same goes for the strikers, wingers and full backs. the entire structure of the team changes.

to use a metaphor: the entire 'code' of the team needs to be rewritten if we are to change formation. sure, we could switch things around from time to time if we're desperate, but to change formation just for the sake of changing is nuts...

 

[MK5]

if we're not going to bring in players to fit the formation that we've been using, then we should change the formation to suit the strengths of the players we have now.

thing is, the players are, and have been for a long time, training within a particular formation. the different roles and movement pattern is probably something the players work on every day. changing formation is not something you do with a switch of a button. for example, the central midfielders in a 4-3-3 do not have the same 'roles' or 'positions' in the team as the central midfielder in a 4-4-2. same goes for the strikers, wingers and full backs. the entire structure of the team changes.

to use a metaphor: the entire 'code' of the team needs to be rewritten if we are to change formation. sure, we could switch things around from time to time if we're desperate, but to change formation just for the sake of changing is nuts...

We have won one single away game in PL this season and I'm happy Wenger actually sees that something's not right even though he doesn't give anyting away to the press. Fab and Gilberto just arent't poweful enough and even though it hurts to say, I think a lot of players would rather face those 2 than for example Savage & Tugay (or however he spells his name). A third central midfilder could make us a lot stronger.

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

We have won one single away game in PL this season and I'm happy Wenger actually sees that something's not right even though he doesn't give anyting away to the press. Fab and Gilberto just arent't poweful enough and even though it hurts to say, I think a lot of players would rather face those 2 than for example Savage & Tugay (or however he spells his name). A third central midfilder could make us a lot stronger.

This is not fantasy football once again. You think our team will be better off.with a Savage and Tugay combination? You must be smoking man. Gilberto/Cesc is not a bad combination considering how we play as a team.

So how do we win the home games cos one will assume if the combination is the problem..it will show all the time. Too much focus on the CM and very little on our LM and RM whom i feel are the ones are the main culprits. (esp the combination of pires/freddie).

The days of midfield domination are long gone guys.they went away even when Vieira was here the last season or so. Midfield will be exposed if those upfront.fail to open up or hold on to posession. Whatever combination we employ..if we fail to hold on to the ball(the entire team) midfield will be the first area to be exposed.

 

[Chips&CurrySauce]

The reason why we look good at home Mbaki is because teams just sit back and defend deep, in effect conceding the ball to us.. Our midfielders, especially in our own half have alot more time on the ball, when we are pressed high up the pitch, as Bolton did, then our weaknes in midfield is glaring..

I like your formation Kamikaze, if we play 4 3 3 ithink Henry should also play in the Ronaldinho role, with VP leading the line.. Hleb would become our Deco type player, with Cesc keeping things together a la Xavi..

I just can't see Arsen moving Henry though.. It is a nice formation becaue atleast it accomodates Hleb in his favoured position and I'm sure given games he will start to really make things click for us!

 

[Gurgen]

if we're not going to bring in players to fit the formation that we've been using, then we should change the formation to suit the strengths of the players we have now.

thing is, the players are, and have been for a long time, training within a particular formation. the different roles and movement pattern is probably something the players work on every day. changing formation is not something you do with a switch of a button. for example, the central midfielders in a 4-3-3 do not have the same 'roles' or 'positions' in the team as the central midfielder in a 4-4-2. same goes for the strikers, wingers and full backs. the entire structure of the team changes.

to use a metaphor: the entire 'code' of the team needs to be rewritten if we are to change formation. sure, we could switch things around from time to time if we're desperate, but to change formation just for the sake of changing is nuts...

It really isn't that dramatic. The players are intelligent, the basics of football are still the same. The only things that change when switching to a diamond is that there are no wingers and the midfielders play a bit different. This would create even more space for our fullbacks, nothing would change for Henry and RvP. In fact, it would stop Henry and Reyes running into each other. I think Reyes could be excellent behind the two strikers, he is after all a playmaker, even though some don't want to realize this. As for the other two midfielders, well, it's not really that hard. One stays back and distributes, the other two get involved both offensively and defensively, only with a bit more security than in a flat 4-4-2.

 

[lewdikris]

if we're not going to bring in players to fit the formation that we've been using, then we should change the formation to suit the strengths of the players we have now.

thing is, the players are, and have been for a long time, training within a particular formation. the different roles and movement pattern is probably something the players work on every day. changing formation is not something you do with a switch of a button. for example, the central midfielders in a 4-3-3 do not have the same 'roles' or 'positions' in the team as the central midfielder in a 4-4-2. same goes for the strikers, wingers and full backs. the entire structure of the team changes.

to use a metaphor: the entire 'code' of the team needs to be rewritten if we are to change formation. sure, we could switch things around from time to time if we're desperate, but to change formation just for the sake of changing is nuts...

It really isn't that dramatic. The players are intelligent, the basics of football are still the same. The only things that change when switching to a diamond is that there are no wingers and the midfielders play a bit different. This would create even more space for our fullbacks, nothing would change for Henry and RvP. In fact, it would stop Henry and Reyes running into each other. I think Reyes could be excellent behind the two strikers, he is after all a playmaker, even though some don't want to realize this. As for the other two midfielders, well, it's not really that hard. One stays back and distributes, the other two get involved both offensively and defensively, only with a bit more security than in a flat 4-4-2.

I agree, it's not that dramatic ... and it's probably the change of formation that will best allow us to maximise the potential of our most exciting young attacking players in the longterm: Van Persie, Hleb and Fabregas.

I think everyone needs to understand that these three are part of a fundamental change from the style of the Arsenal of 2000-2004: the arsenal of Vieira, Henry, Pires and Bergkamp. That was a team all about pace, power and counterattacking ... playing at lightning speed through the middle axis of Vieira and Bergy to let Henry, Pires and Freddie finish off moves.

Those days are over. Forever.

That team and its style is broken up - Paddy's gone, Bergy will soon, and Pires and Henry aren't exactly longterm certainties.

The guys who are replacing them are different. Not as quick for a start. More 'technical' in the sense that they want time and space to move with the ball - quite Spanish/Dutch in style, which is no accident as that's where so many of them are from.

It makes perfect sense for this reason to move towards a basic style of 4-3-3 .... in the attacking sense of Barca and Holland, rather than the neutralising sense of Chelsea and their like.

Of the 'new breed' of players it's Hleb and Fabregas who are the creative axis Wenger should and will be looking at. But unlike Vieira (who started the moves) and Bergy (who played the final ball) they're not going to work best playing one behind the other. They need to play side by side in midfield with a defensive shield between them (Gilberto/Flamini or some other player yet to come, Zokora being the most touted name). That way we get the best of a great dribbler and passer (Hleb) and an outrageous passer (Fabregas).

Although they're not as physical, this is our equivalent of Gerrard and Alonso at Liverpool ... and an exact match for Deco and Xavi at Barca.

It's going to take a while to make this transition, but I 100% think it has to be done. We can't be again the 'monsters' (as Harry Redknapp once called us) of old. That's over. The kinds of player Wenger's invested time and money in don't fit that mould.

This kind of 4-3-3 is essentially five defenders and five attackers, and would allow the potential for Toure to move into defensive midfield a la Marquez at Barca, with Senderos and Campbell behind him.


Where would this transition leave us in 2006? Let's say for a second that we bought no-one new (though we'll need to, of course), and that, as expected Cole and Pires both leave .... how about this for the first game at Ashburton, a solid defensive pivot, a creative axis in midfield to rival the very best and three brilliant winger-strikers with license to roam and license to score. Looks pretty good to me:

Lehmann

Lauren Campbell Senderos Clichy

Fabregas Toure Hleb

Van Persie Henry Reyes


That's my kinda team. We'll need what Barca have - defensive options in midfield, and more conventional forwards up front, but that gives us the possibility of getting the best from the best players we have.

 

[RocktheCasbah]

i will now concede that wenger actually sees reyes as a striker.

Very gracious of you. 8)

 

[kel varnsen]

if we're not going to bring in players to fit the formation that we've been using, then we should change the formation to suit the strengths of the players we have now.

thing is, the players are, and have been for a long time, training within a particular formation. the different roles and movement pattern is probably something the players work on every day. changing formation is not something you do with a switch of a button. for example, the central midfielders in a 4-3-3 do not have the same 'roles' or 'positions' in the team as the central midfielder in a 4-4-2. same goes for the strikers, wingers and full backs. the entire structure of the team changes.

to use a metaphor: the entire 'code' of the team needs to be rewritten if we are to change formation. sure, we could switch things around from time to time if we're desperate, but to change formation just for the sake of changing is nuts...

It really isn't that dramatic. The players are intelligent, the basics of football are still the same. The only things that change when switching to a diamond is that there are no wingers and the midfielders play a bit different. This would create even more space for our fullbacks, nothing would change for Henry and RvP. In fact, it would stop Henry and Reyes running into each other. I think Reyes could be excellent behind the two strikers, he is after all a playmaker, even though some don't want to realize this. As for the other two midfielders, well, it's not really that hard. One stays back and distributes, the other two get involved both offensively and defensively, only with a bit more security than in a flat 4-4-2.

coming from a guy who thinks 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 isn't closely related.

it is a dramatic change, which is also why wenger uses it rarely and only on special occations. he doesn't like to change formation, because he knows it disrupts the shape and structure of the team. sure, it may not seem so in fm2005, but this is the real world. the players work in the setting of wenger's 4-4-2 every day. do you really think the players just go out on the pitch and 'improvise'? of course not, each player has his predetermined movement and positioning 'pattern'. both offensively and defensively.

sure, individually each player probably would be able to change position, but that's not the point here. the point is that the team would take time to adjust. i could have said a lot more about this, but i have neither the time nor the energy. i will say this though; there is a reason for why the managers in general stick to one formation and tactic...

not to mention, changing formation may lead to the need for new players. who do you see play up front in a 4-5-1/4-3-3?

btw, i'm not talking about just changing into a diamond shaped midfield. i'm talking about switching to 4-3-3/4-5-1...

 

[Gurgen]

I never suggested changing into a 4-3-3. Read my posts before you spout.

And we don't have the players to play flat 4-4-2 either. Who is our left winger? Where is our central midfield?