4-3-3/Diamond

[RocktheCasbah]

Who is our left winger?

If anyone answers that question with the words "Jose Reyes" I will personally hunt them down and shoot them.

And lock this topic... j/k

 

[YeahBee]

'Like I said' hardly makes you an authority. I prefer to listen to people like Johan Cruijff.
Not getting into this discussion again.

then i'll listen to wenger... funny, everyone, but the dutch, says 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 is closely related. strange. i guess everyone else is wrong... :roll:

Closely related maybe, but not 'basically the same'.
The whole point of 4-3-3 is having 3 strikers, not 5 midfielders. That's why in a proper 4-3-3 one of the central defenders comes into midfield to support the 3 midfielders, creating a 3-4-3 in possesion, as you said. A 4-3-3 is an attacking formation, a 4-5-1 is a defensive one.

Basically the same the only thing that differs is the level of attack/defending. There are many ways to play a 4-4-2 aswell, the classic english 4-4-2 aren't the same as Wengers 4-4-2, the Valencia 4-4-2 is not the same. To call a 4-5-1 a 4-3-3 is not that far of they are variations on the same theme, Three central midfielders that can be positioned differntly theyb are still three CM's. And if you call the Wingers/strikers wingers or strikers is just depending on how far back you want them to defend. No team that plays 4-3-3 actually have three strikers they have very attackminded wingers. And of course those wingers can move in as a second striker when the ball is played on the other side giving more pressure in the box.

I don't get what you are aiming at with this 4-3-3 being a 3-4-3 in attack, which team plays like this?. In both 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 you need your L/Rb to come forward not stay put and get a CB to turn into a DM. You rarely see a 3-4-3 these days mainly IMO because you need such great players to get it to work, the midfielders must be marathon men. Juve has used it in a variation when Zambrotta goes forward from the LB position to LM while Nevded moves up as a dragging striker and and their RB moves in to become a third CB. Or if they play 3-5-2 and have Del Piero as a midfield/striker behind the strikers.

I can honestly say that I haven't seen the type of 3-4-3 you are talking about and find it odd! Almost every teams nowadays has very modern attackminded wingbacks, even Chelsea. That take's part in the attack.

As my last thoughs drift a bit I do think that we have the kind of players to pull of a 4-3-3/4-5-1 with Reyes/RvP/Freddie on the two outer strikers positions and Henry in the middle. That way we can get Hleb into the middle. Plus gilberto can confertably sit on Kolo and Sols lap, the thing that he is best suited for.

 

[MK5]

We have won one single away game in PL this season and I'm happy Wenger actually sees that something's not right even though he doesn't give anyting away to the press. Fab and Gilberto just arent't poweful enough and even though it hurts to say, I think a lot of players would rather face those 2 than for example Savage & Tugay (or however he spells his name). A third central midfilder could make us a lot stronger.

This is not fantasy football once again. You think our team will be better off.with a Savage and Tugay combination? You must be smoking man. Gilberto/Cesc is not a bad combination considering how we play as a team.

So how do we win the home games cos one will assume if the combination is the problem..it will show all the time. Too much focus on the CM and very little on our LM and RM whom i feel are the ones are the main culprits. (esp the combination of pires/freddie).

The days of midfield domination are long gone guys.they went away even when Vieira was here the last season or so. Midfield will be exposed if those upfront.fail to open up or hold on to posession. Whatever combination we employ..if we fail to hold on to the ball(the entire team) midfield will be the first area to be exposed.

I'm not saying I'd rather have Savage & Tugay but I'm pretty sure a lot of teams would prefer to face Fabregas & Gilberto rather than those two.

I'm sorry mate but the centre of midfield is the position that makes the difference between dominating a game or not more than any other position.
As someone else said above, This 4-3-3 system isn't such a dramatic change from how we played until now and could see us coming back to our best even if we're not as physically strong as we used to be.

 

[KingReyes]

Who is our left winger?

If anyone answers that question with the words "Jose Reyes" I will personally hunt them down and shoot them.

And lock this topic... j/k

JOSE ANTONIO REYES j/k

 

[Rohit]

We could be back to our best playing 4-4-2 also.
the problem with us right now is an absolute lack of movement and slow passing,the tempo we play at is very slow.
In our unbeaten season and even the season before the tempo we played at was very fast,it involed a lot of quick passing,not necessarily one touch football.But a lot of 'pass and move' football.Our football now is too static,players pass and stand.Play what formation you like the 4-4-2 ,the diamond the 4-3-3 or the 4-5-1 we never be like we were before without that high tempo and quick passing and movement.

Two seasons ago when we lost the title to the Mancs after leading by 8 points,Tony Adams came out and said that we were too "cavalier" going forward.
I did not agree with him then,we drew against Villa away if I am not wrong after leading 1-0 and becoming overly defensive after we scored and the same holds true for none other game than the game against Bolton when they came back from 2 goals down after we d become toooooooo defensive.

Arsenal aer'nt cavalier anymore and personally I don't like it,they used to go out and have 6-7 shots on goal in the first 20 mins especially at Highbury.We do none of that,our tempo is too slow,our passing is too slow we are closed down and have to pass back.

We conceed even after having 10 men behind the ball,I d rather see the cavalier Arsenal again,may sound ludicrous but I d love to see that cavalier Arsenal again.

 

[kel varnsen]

I never suggested changing into a 4-3-3. Read my posts before you spout.

And we don't have the players to play flat 4-4-2 either. Who is our left winger? Where is our central midfield?

did you read my post? i wasn't talking about a diamond shaped midfield, but 4-3-3/4-5-1...

hleb could probably do the same job on the left as pires used to do. in central midfield we are short. i agree. we need another central midfielder who can pass the ball and play next to cesc.

 

[MK5]

We could be back to our best playing 4-4-2 also.
the problem with us right now is an absolute lack of movement and slow passing,the tempo we play at is very slow.
In our unbeaten season and even the season before the tempo we played at was very fast,it involed a lot of quick passing,not necessarily one touch football.But a lot of 'pass and move' football.Our football now is too static,players pass and stand.Play what formation you like the 4-4-2 ,the diamond the 4-3-3 or the 4-5-1 we never be like we were before without that high tempo and quick passing and movement.

Two seasons ago when we lost the title to the Mancs after leading by 8 points,Tony Adams came out and said that we were too "cavalier" going forward.
I did not agree with him then,we drew against Villa away if I am not wrong after leading 1-0 and becoming overly defensive after we scored and the same holds true for none other game than the game against Bolton when they came back from 2 goals down after we d become toooooooo defensive.

Arsenal aer'nt cavalier anymore and personally I don't like it,they used to go out and have 6-7 shots on goal in the first 20 mins especially at Highbury.We do none of that,our tempo is too slow,our passing is too slow we are closed down and have to pass back.

We conceed even after having 10 men behind the ball,I d rather see the cavalier Arsenal again,may sound ludicrous but I d love to see that cavalier Arsenal again.

Couldn't agree with you more about the lack of movement and slow passing. AW should start with sorting Reyes out. Just tell the fella to keep it simple. Don't use more than 1 or 2 touches on the ball unless you think we can benefit from it, look for an easy pass and run into open spaces. If Reyes start doing this, like he did when he was at his best for us and scored goals for fun, he can become a world class player. I think 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 is a step towards our old style, espacially away from home where the pitches are bigger as well.

 

[Gurgen]

'Like I said' hardly makes you an authority. I prefer to listen to people like Johan Cruijff.
Not getting into this discussion again.

then i'll listen to wenger... funny, everyone, but the dutch, says 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 is closely related. strange. i guess everyone else is wrong... :roll:

Closely related maybe, but not 'basically the same'.
The whole point of 4-3-3 is having 3 strikers, not 5 midfielders. That's why in a proper 4-3-3 one of the central defenders comes into midfield to support the 3 midfielders, creating a 3-4-3 in possesion, as you said. A 4-3-3 is an attacking formation, a 4-5-1 is a defensive one.

I don't get what you are aiming at with this 4-3-3 being a 3-4-3 in attack, which team plays like this?. In both 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 you need your L/Rb to come forward not stay put and get a CB to turn into a DM. You rarely see a 3-4-3 these days mainly IMO because you need such great players to get it to work, the midfielders must be marathon men. Juve has used it in a variation when Zambrotta goes forward from the LB position to LM while Nevded moves up as a dragging striker and and their RB moves in to become a third CB. Or if they play 3-5-2 and have Del Piero as a midfield/striker behind the strikers.

I can honestly say that I haven't seen the type of 3-4-3 you are talking about and find it odd! Almost every teams nowadays has very modern attackminded wingbacks, even Chelsea. That take's part in the attack.

I suggest you watch a Holland or Ajax/Feyenoord game. Juve, Chelsea are all defensive teams, I couldn't give a hoot how they play. Whatever it is, it's not 4-3-3.

 

[kamikaze80]

i will now concede that wenger actually sees reyes as a striker.

Very gracious of you. 8)

yea i know.

now if reyes would be so gracious as to score some goals, thatd really be just peachy..

why am i getting deja vu over this 4-3-3 v. 4-5-1 argument? how long till leonardo santiago weighs in on this?

 

[Mbaki Mutahaba]

We could be back to our best playing 4-4-2 also.
the problem with us right now is an absolute lack of movement and slow passing,the tempo we play at is very slow.
In our unbeaten season and even the season before the tempo we played at was very fast,it involed a lot of quick passing,not necessarily one touch football.But a lot of 'pass and move' football.Our football now is too static,players pass and stand.Play what formation you like the 4-4-2 ,the diamond the 4-3-3 or the 4-5-1 we never be like we were before without that high tempo and quick passing and movement.

Two seasons ago when we lost the title to the Mancs after leading by 8 points,Tony Adams came out and said that we were too "cavalier" going forward.
I did not agree with him then,we drew against Villa away if I am not wrong after leading 1-0 and becoming overly defensive after we scored and the same holds true for none other game than the game against Bolton when they came back from 2 goals down after we d become toooooooo defensive.

Arsenal aer'nt cavalier anymore and personally I don't like it,they used to go out and have 6-7 shots on goal in the first 20 mins especially at Highbury.We do none of that,our tempo is too slow,our passing is too slow we are closed down and have to pass back.

We conceed even after having 10 men behind the ball,I d rather see the cavalier Arsenal again,may sound ludicrous but I d love to see that cavalier Arsenal again.

Back to WengerBall!!!! Sorry mate.. we don't have the players to do that anymore. You will only see flashed of it but thats about it. You are right though. We were a team built on movement..looked very good and was very effective especially when going forward but ever since the undefeated season..there has been slow changes and we are playing a more "matured" game. Our defense is still vulnerable but i think that has more to do with quality/form then our actual style of play. My friend just save those old games on DVD cos untill these new kids gel...cavalier football will keep coming in patches.

 

[Canuck]

Where would this transition leave us in 2006? Let's say for a second that we bought no-one new (though we'll need to, of course), and that, as expected Cole and Pires both leave .... how about this for the first game at Ashburton, a solid defensive pivot, a creative axis in midfield to rival the very best and three brilliant winger-strikers with license to roam and license to score. Looks pretty good to me:

Lehmann

Lauren Campbell Senderos Clichy

Fabregas Toure Hleb

Van Persie Henry Reyes


That's my kinda team. We'll need what Barca have - defensive options in midfield, and more conventional forwards up front, but that gives us the possibility of getting the best from the best players we have.

Sounds good, but let's say we play RVP central, switch Reyes to the right and Henry on the left.

I just think Robin is going to make a much better central forward. Though when/if Henry's gone then we can see Robin outside again and Lupoli in the center.

 

[Anonymous]

Have Senderos and Cambell played together before? (I cant remember) If so how did they do :?:

 

[hollow]

Does anyone else think that Wenger has made Henry his Captain, realises he cant rotate him and wants to find a way of getting his most prolific striker of recent times (Van Persie), his major signings of recent times (Reyes and Hleb) and his best passer of the ball (Cesc) onto the pitch all at the same time? Plus our most natural finisher (Lupoli) Will be an understudy to Titi who wont demand playing time for a good few years yet.

What do you do when you have too many wingers and not enough muscle in CM? Play 4-3-3. Seems sensible to me.

 

[gun4glory]

I was just thinking... Maybe we could try a 3-5-2, that way we can keep our two strikers up front like now but pack the midfield a bit more to minimize penetration
---------------Lehmenn---------------
--------------Campbell----------------
----Toure---------------Senderos----
----------------Gilberto---------------
----Ljungberg----Cesc----Reyes----
-----------------Hleb------------------
---------RvPP----------Henry---------

I know i left out Cole and Lauren, they can take Toure and Senderos's places, possible even Ljungberg and Reyes

With something like that well be able to have a powerful midfield that can help upfront as well

 

[longrufus]

sorry but i dont think a 3 at the back is ever really succesful, anyway, our problems isnt really scoring goals, its conceding them, and i dont believe your team is going to help the situation. Looks more like you cant decide who to play in midfield so you've played them all

 

[Canuck]

sorry but i dont think a 3 at the back is ever really succesful, anyway, our problems isnt really scoring goals, its conceding them, and i dont believe your team is going to help the situation. Looks more like you cant decide who to play in midfield so you've played them all

Yep, how many teams actually start matches regularly with 3 at the back? I'm pretty sure it must be few and far between.

Though maybe France will when they play Togo... :wink:

 

[Jazza]

I suggest you watch a Holland or Ajax/Feyenoord game. Juve, Chelsea are all defensive teams, I couldn't give a hoot how they play. Whatever it is, it's not 4-3-3.

I agree, nobody in the premiership plays a real 4-3-3, there all derivatives of 4-5-1 and there is a difference in how it's played and the types of players you need to make it work. They do use three forwards up front, usually an out and striker in the middle and forwards/wing forwards on either side. Watch dutch football to get an idea of how they play.

The 4-3-3/3-4-3 with the central defender pushing up is the Ajax system. The central defender would move up to the defensive midfield position and act as a playmaker when attacking ( Frank Rijkaard in his day ).

As far as a normal 3-4-3 goes, teams still use it, although the last time I saw a big team use it on a regular basis was the manager at Inter Milan before Mancini came along.

 

[gun4glory]

sorry but i dont think a 3 at the back is ever really succesful, anyway, our problems isnt really scoring goals, its conceding them, and i dont believe your team is going to help the situation. Looks more like you cant decide who to play in midfield so you've played them all

Well this season the problem has really been in all departments...
If we pack our midfield it'll be hard for the opposititon to get through and we can still attack...

 

[YeahBee]

'Like I said' hardly makes you an authority. I prefer to listen to people like Johan Cruijff.
Not getting into this discussion again.

then i'll listen to wenger... funny, everyone, but the dutch, says 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 is closely related. strange. i guess everyone else is wrong... :roll:

Closely related maybe, but not 'basically the same'.
The whole point of 4-3-3 is having 3 strikers, not 5 midfielders. That's why in a proper 4-3-3 one of the central defenders comes into midfield to support the 3 midfielders, creating a 3-4-3 in possesion, as you said. A 4-3-3 is an attacking formation, a 4-5-1 is a defensive one.

I don't get what you are aiming at with this 4-3-3 being a 3-4-3 in attack, which team plays like this?. In both 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 you need your L/Rb to come forward not stay put and get a CB to turn into a DM. You rarely see a 3-4-3 these days mainly IMO because you need such great players to get it to work, the midfielders must be marathon men. Juve has used it in a variation when Zambrotta goes forward from the LB position to LM while Nevded moves up as a dragging striker and and their RB moves in to become a third CB. Or if they play 3-5-2 and have Del Piero as a midfield/striker behind the strikers.

I can honestly say that I haven't seen the type of 3-4-3 you are talking about and find it odd! Almost every teams nowadays has very modern attackminded wingbacks, even Chelsea. That take's part in the attack.

I suggest you watch a Holland or Ajax/Feyenoord game. Juve, Chelsea are all defensive teams, I couldn't give a hoot how they play. Whatever it is, it's not 4-3-3.

I watched the Chelsea Wigan game today and that was 4-3-3 tactic if I ever saw one. Their CMs even seemd to be playing n a straight line instead of one guy in a midfieldlibero role as Makelele has. Robben and Duff played up hig on the wings not tracking back. Ajax plays extrem 4-3-3 their wingers are as high up as the lone striker but on the wings, they have two DM's and one attacking midfielder.

 

[YeahBee]

I was just thinking... Maybe we could try a 3-5-2, that way we can keep our two strikers up front like now but pack the midfield a bit more to minimize penetration
---------------Lehmenn---------------
--------------Campbell----------------
----Toure---------------Senderos----
----------------Gilberto---------------
----Ljungberg----Cesc----Reyes----
-----------------Hleb------------------
---------RvPP----------Henry---------

I know i left out Cole and Lauren, they can take Toure and Senderos's places, possible even Ljungberg and Reyes

With something like that well be able to have a powerful midfield that can help upfront as well

Ljungberg and Reys as single wingers would be murder, Cole Lauren would work but we would become a static boring team, 4-3-3 does seem to be the most optimal tactic with our players.
Lehmann
Lauren, Kolo, Sol, Cole
Gilberto
Cesc Hleb
Freddie Reyes
Henry

I didn't chose Rvp mainly because This role is made for Reys who has turned into more of a winger then striker and RvP strenghts are as a striker. But he would be the first sub on any of those three pos... Hleb could also play as a outter striker/winger. The games I have seen of him in Dortmund he had pretty free- midfiled role and did great . Flamini wouldn't be so bad in the middle with Cesc or Hleb because he has such good workrate, when he is good he always seems to look up an unmarked area and gets himself in a position to recive a pass. ANd when has passed he works hiomself into another area.