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4 Years

j'nuh

Well-Known Member
kamikaze80 said:
General said:
It is one thing questioning the team and another rolling out this 'I told you so' baloney. There are some people on this board you simply cannot erase the impression that they want the team to fail in some sad attempt to prove their prophecies.
no, the problem is some people are wrong, and rather than admit they're wrong, they go to ridiculous lengths to suggest that others actively root against the team they support in order to be proven right!

lets drop the ego and stop the intellectual gymnastics. we all know this team lacks first team quality at a couple positions - it's a fact. some people saw it earlier than others - it doesnt really matter. what matters is whether wenger will see it and rectify it. this summer is surely the last straw for any reasonable arsenal supporter. it's 2009, wenger should get around to replacing vieira and campbell.

But absolutely no one is saying we havnt failed. You've built up this imaginary group of people that would defend Arsène even we got relegated. I agree that this side hasnt been good enough, and that we've failed this season. Does that mean i should be ashamed of putting faith in Wenger and in my club? No. Does that mean im any less convinced that we have absolutely no cash so what we have acheived is still a superb effort? No.

With regards to the support, i just think anyone who loses interest when the clubs fortunes take a turn for the worse is completely missing the point. It just isnt what supporting a club is all about.
 

General

Established Member
The reality is that winning the FA cup in subordinate to finishing in the top 4. People can talk about the prestige with winning the cup but sadly the monetary rewards and general attraction of the CL are too good to resist. Ask Martin O'neil whether he'd FA or UEFA Cup over a CL spot? Most managers will choose the latter any day. Sadly this is where football is heading.

My gripe is with the complete mismanagement of our semi-final tie with Chelsea when 4th spot was more or less settled. Wenger just didn't treat the cup with the respect it deserved.

Don Pacifico said:
I am not that.

I tried so hard not to care about this game because I expected the worst and from game to game, I'm quite upbeat and positive. If you read our match threads, you'll see that.

But we need change. We need someone to accept that this ship is sailing the wrong course and to change our direction. Wenger is not that man. Fifty games of the inexperienced Denilsong, expected to win a league in a position that requires experience tells its own story.

For what it's worth, I found it really upsetting when the camera panned towards Wenger during the match. As a younger fan, Wenger has been pretty much all I've known but I can't assimilate my admiration for him with a blase acceptance of our predicament. In my eyes, he is the main problem with our club and I love the Arse more than I love AW.


I agree Don. I just prefer to discuss footballing matters and not engage in this pointless political debate. People are talking about making wholesale changes and acquiring players this summer but clearly the issues rest with Wenger and his approach to the task ahead. No amount of talent can hide his shortcomings on a regular matchday.

Talent is ok but it has to be harnessed and utilised in the right way. What pissed me off about this tie with United is the fact that we are capable of a much better performance than we shown, despite coming up against a better organised team. Unfortunately, Wenger's conservative approach was a major factor. People can talk about the unfortunate slip that led to the first goal but it was blindly obvious from the outset that the team was even more unbalanced that the one he sent out last week.

Season after season - we see the same mistakes being repeated at crucial periods. Like Chelsea a few years ago and PSV, the tie was lost in the first leg with our conservative approach.

I have faith in Wenger to continue to nurture talent and give them the needed belief to compete at the highest level. However, I’m not convinced with his matchday performance and this is the biggest chink in his armoury. Personally I think Boro Primorac and Pat Rice have just as much to answer for. Why oh why was Robin playing on the left wing yesterday only to change it after the disastrous start. The season before, we saw him do the same thing with Eduardo against Milan. He compromises his principles where they are needed the most and this is the fundamental flaw.
 

marco

Well-Known Member
Viking said:
polo

Marco Polo said:
i was gutted when we lost to chelsea and even more gutted in 2001 when liverpool beat us in the final
but we are all taking a very short sighted of football if we keep telling the acocuntants worry about the money and the fans the trophies.

Why is that short sighted exactly?


because football is a money business..
the fans dont matter
last week 2vs 4th in mexico played behind closed doors.. i know it was due to pandemic etc but it was still allowed to happen.
the TV companies and money guys control football these days..not the fans.
and the money men want 4th place every year not fa cups and carling cups..
arsenals board will be dleighted with wenger this year..
top4 finish semi finals champions league.. they are the priorities.
Sp**s board are delighted with arry cos he kept them in the league
villa- took the money gamble and failed.

4th spot + premeriship survival means more than any fa cup win..
the yanks at liverpool would rather 4th spot then 5th with a fa cup final win vs man utd 5-0..becuase of one thing - MONEY
if we had won an fa cup would this year really have been an improvement.
last year we were 2 set pieces away from the title!
this year we have been nowhere near it..
but cos we beat hull, cardiff plymouth and everton and chelsea we have had a better year.. behave!
 

progman07

Established Member
marco said:
Viking said:
polo

Marco Polo said:
i was gutted when we lost to chelsea and even more gutted in 2001 when liverpool beat us in the final
but we are all taking a very short sighted of football if we keep telling the acocuntants worry about the money and the fans the trophies.

Why is that short sighted exactly?


because football is a money business..
the fans dont matter
last week 2vs 4th in mexico played behind closed doors.. i know it was due to pandemic etc but it was still allowed to happen.
the TV companies and money guys control football these days..not the fans.
and the money men want 4th place every year not fa cups and carling cups..
arsenals board will be dleighted with wenger this year..
top4 finish semi finals champions league.. they are the priorities.
Sp**s board are delighted with arry cause he kept them in the league
villa- took the money gamble and failed.

4th spot + premeriship survival means more than any fa cup win..
the yanks at liverpool would rather 4th spot then 5th with a fa cup final win vs man utd 5-0..becuase of one thing - MONEY
if we had won an fa cup would this year really have been an improvement.
last year we were 2 set pieces away from the title!
this year we have been nowhere near it..
but cause we beat hull, cardiff plymouth and everton and chelsea we have had a better year.. behave!
Your post is quite true, but do you realize the football fans control the TVs? Had nobody watched the CL, the TVs wouldn't pay as much to the rights, and the UEFA wouldn't have so much money.

Same with Arsenal, if we aren't winning anything and are doing bad, less fans will buy Arsenal related stuff (like Season Review DVDs, or shirts), less fans will go to the matches, and less fans will watch us on TV so we won't have as much money.


So the fans ARE in control in some way, but obviously we can't control that as individuals, only as a group, which is, impossible to organise.
 

General

Established Member
We've been here before and we will again in the future. Time is a great healer but there is nothing stopping us from repeating the same mistakes again. In Wenger's own words - We are making good progress but failing to win the games that matter the most and the blame lies squarely on his shoulders. It all began with the FA Cup against Chelsea. Within two weeks, he's screwed everything up and gone against the underlying principles that got our season back on track. When it mattered the most - he compromised his principles. It's like the pole vaulter trying to clear 6m but suddenly decides to change the footwear or technique that served him so well.
 

General

Established Member
That is where the problem lies. Buying Arshavin a season earlier would've almost certainly given us a much better chance of winning the PL. As has been said to death - he needs to be more proactive and less reactive.
 

kamikaze80

Established Member
i dont think we've made any progress. low 70's point total, 4th place, no trophies is this team's level. our team right now is arshavin, fabregas, gallas, clichy, sagna and a bunch of decent players.

remove arshavin and we're the mediocre team that couldnt score in 4 consecutive matches. wenger harps on and on about this 21 match unbeaten streak... look, it's a nice achievement but it doesnt PROVE anything. it includes the 4 match goalless streak and we've lost 10 points on united during the streak.

look at the facts and not the hype.
 

thegame24

Established Member
Hopefully Kroenke takes over and the money excuse goes. Only then id start sayin that maybe its time he goes.
 

True Gooner

Established Member
kamikaze80 said:
i dont think we've made any progress. low 70's point total, 4th place, no trophies is this team's level. our team right now is arshavin, fabregas, gallas, clichy, sagna and a bunch of decent players.

remove arshavin and we're the mediocre team that couldnt score in 4 consecutive matches. wenger harps on and on about this 21 match unbeaten streak... look, it's a nice achievement but it doesnt PROVE anything. it includes the 4 match goalless streak and we've lost 10 points on united during the streak.

look at the facts and not the hype.

To be fair (not disagreeing) We've been in the top 3 (we're tied for 1st with Liverpool at the moment) form teams since the turn of the year despite those draws.

It's not the dawn of a new era (sorry ricky, couldn't resist) but we certainly don't have to dismantle the entire side and start again.
 

General

Established Member
We've dropped only 2 points since the beginning of March and I certainly call this progress. It just isn't enough and sadly the damage was caused much earlier in the season. Overall and certainly when compared to last season - progress has been minimal to non-existent.
 

kamikaze80

Established Member
i don't think anyone's suggesting we dismantle the team. it's amazing, almost everyone agrees we should more or less keep everyone but buy a CM and CB.

what i want to disprove is wenger's absurd notion that this 21 match unbeaten streak proves that the existing side can win things. the streak is an 80 point pace if you extend it to 38 matches. yay, we can fight for 3rd place! if wenger wants to take a step back and look at things, there's a step back for you.

look at the last 20 matches starting from december. united has gone 18-0-2. we've gone 11-9-0.
 

sesquioxide

Well-Known Member
henry79 said:
Wenger couldnt even win the CL when we had the invincibles we never got to a semi final with that team!!! what does this say about him?! I really think he is tactically inept atleast then we were winning our domestic cups but now after selling our best players and not replacing them properly we are not even competing, well apart from last season but look how that ended.

I am starting to believe we will not win another trophy under him again.

Well, in some way, we ARE closer to the trophy than where we were in terms of the Champions League.

Wenger had won his way into 2 semi-finals in these barren 4 years, when in previous years we never got there at all.

And it isn't even about Wenger's tactics during the game. It's about the basic defense. The defense that conceded the 3rd goal at Anfield last season when we had our 2nd away goal and the defense that conceded 2 against United in 15 minutes yesterday. (If you want to consider more cases, the same defense that conceded that stupid goal to Senna at Villarreal.) Even if you let Mourinho or Capello or even Ferguson take over the team for one night yesterday, it wouldn't have mattered because the defense was so bad the offense even on tip top form (which it wasn't, without Arshavin) would not have been able to keep pace.

I suppose with the forum in such a bitter mood I am going to be a lightning rod for supporting Wenger, but I can see the promise and I do note that we have a better Champions League record for the last 4 years than for many years before. But my patience with Wenger in terms of the defense has run out, and I have to see him do something about that. We need less blunder-prone, less injury-prone players in that area and far superior training and drilling of procedures.
 

ibby

Established Member
2008 FA Cup - Knocked Out by United
2008 Champions League - Knocked Out by Liverpool
2009 FA Cup - Knocked Out by Chelsea
2009 Champions League - Knocked Out by United

If any of the other members of the Top 4 wanna proceed to the next round of a competition, hope you get Arsenal in the draw. We're their *****es in Cup Competitions.
 

sesquioxide

Well-Known Member
ibby said:
2008 FA Cup - Knocked Out by United
2008 Champions League - Knocked Out by Liverpool
2009 FA Cup - Knocked Out by Chelsea
2009 Champions League - Knocked Out by United

If any of the other members of the Top 4 wanna proceed to the next round of a competition, hope you get Arsenal in the draw. We're their *****es in Cup Competitions.

It's simple, really, because their offenses are so much better than our defense than our offense better than their defense. And that is entirely down to how awful our defense is. It shows in the league standings. For 3-4 seasons their defenses have conceded 30 goals or less. We have always conceded more than 30 goals, and solidly belong to Everton's level. And it's alarming that since our Invincibles started the trend, no team has won the Premier League conceding 30 goals +. And since the Invincibles we have never managed to concede less than 30.

Funny how I have been repeating this point for years now.
 

lagos

Established Member
We have been knocked out of the CL 3 times now over 2 legs in the last 5 years by English opposition, the only time we managed to get anywhere, we avoided playing any English teams. It also coincides with a period which people say Wenger has changed our playing style to suit The CL and a period when we have faltered domestically! So has Wenger's European desire come at the expense of the domestic league and is it doomed since one way or the other we are likely to encounter English opposition in the CL?
 

True Gooner

Established Member
kamikaze80 said:
i don't think anyone's suggesting we dismantle the team. it's amazing, almost everyone agrees we should more or less keep everyone but buy a CM and CB.

Not in this particular thread, but there are plently of people who'd like to see us start over.

what i want to disprove is wenger's absurd notion that this 21 match unbeaten streak proves that the existing side can win things. the streak is an 80 point pace if you extend it to 38 matches. yay, we can fight for 3rd place! if wenger wants to take a step back and look at things, there's a step back for you.

look at the last 20 matches starting from december. united has gone 18-0-2. we've gone 11-9-0.

Discussed this before.

We've been in the top 3 since the turn of the year and are presently at the top. Yes, I'm well aware that trophies are handed out at the end of 38 games but you've got to start from somewhere don't you? As Captain mentioned elsewhere, United didn't they're run of form from the first week of the 06/07 season - they started building momentum from the middle of the 05/06 season and that, coupled with the Carling Cup win, gave them the confidence, motivation or whatever you want to call it, to win the league the next seasom - which in turn gave them the experience, confidence, motivation or whatever you want to call it to win the league and the Champions league the season after.

It's a start and I think it's a good one and there's no need to get overly cynical and look at it as a reason why Wenger won't spend.
 

progman07

Established Member
sesquioxide said:
ibby said:
2008 FA Cup - Knocked Out by United
2008 Champions League - Knocked Out by Liverpool
2009 FA Cup - Knocked Out by Chelsea
2009 Champions League - Knocked Out by United

If any of the other members of the Top 4 wanna proceed to the next round of a competition, hope you get Arsenal in the draw. We're their *****es in Cup Competitions.

It's simple, really, because their offenses are so much better than our defense than our offense better than their defense. And that is entirely down to how awful our defense is. It shows in the league standings. For 3-4 seasons their defenses have conceded 30 goals or less. We have always conceded more than 30 goals, and solidly belong to Everton's level. And it's alarming that since our Invincibles started the trend, no team has won the Premier League conceding 30 goals +. And since the Invincibles we have never managed to concede less than 30.

Funny how I have been repeating this point for years now.
:D You will only need to save this post to your favourites, and quotes yourself this time next year.
 

Zico

Established Member
lagos said:
We have been knocked out of the CL 3 times now over 2 legs in the last 5 years by English opposition, the only time we managed to get anywhere, we avoided playing any English teams. It also coincides with a period which people say Wenger has changed our playing style to suit The CL and a period when we have faltered domestically! So has Wenger's European desire come at the expense of the domestic league and is it doomed since one way or the other we are likely to encounter English opposition in the CL?

It also coincides with a time when continental football is clearly falling behind English football. This season, the only teams I would have accepted losing to from Europe were Barcelona and maybe Inter. A loss to any other team would have been embarrassing.

We should focus on building teams that can beat Liverpool, United and Chelsea.
 

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