Mancheater City: 115

[IslingtonBornandbred]

I dont think it's about being offended. @IslingtonBornandbred gave a very insightful explanation as to why it's problematic. It's about using skin colour as the primary descriptive and then deriving a limited profile from that.

Thanks.

There's a lot more to it but it's beyond my scope and my knowledge/intelligence level to discuss it, but I just know some sections of English society and specifically the football world have undertones of casual racism.

I've been in changing rooms, going back a decade ago in late teens where there was a group of 3 or 4 black players who travelled up from London to a academy about 40 minutes outside of London. Whereas in London these 3 or 4 black players would have been more of a majority, outside of London they were like aliens to the locals. Everyday in the changing room they'd get spoken to by a group of white English players (and even the coaches sometimes) in an accent that resembles Troopz from AFTV i.e to the black players "Yes blud what are you saying fam" etc and they didn't like it. It's a culture and a mentality and my fear is as you write, it's similar sort of people with a similar mentality who use skin colour to describe and then stereotype black players.

I've heard a lot in my time, like black players are fast because they are used to be chased by lions in Africa and stuff like this, so whilst I'm not personally offended I'm straight away suspicious of someone who would use "big, black and quick" rather than just "big and quick". It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[A Lighter Shade of Blue]

(By the way this isn't just about City but it's more the point, it just happens in this instance he's working for City)

Explain to me why he's talking about recruitment and he's specifically talking about BBQ's "Big Black and Quick"? He must have some hell of a player profiling database...I'm guessing though he doesn't have categories for "SBAP" Small Black Average Pace or "TBSM" Technical Black Small Midfielders, or "TWED" Tall White English Defenders.

It's just old fashioned, ignorant and generalising a whole group of people. If he wants big and quick players, what difference does it make if they are white, black, or anything else?

Playing Devil's advocate briefly, how do you know he doesn't have other abbrieviations? I would think it's likely he has, most scouts use some sort of code for players they are looking at.

I agree it's lazy and old fashioned though.

By the way, I'm not trying to defend him, I abhor racism in all forms, I just don't see it in this.

 

[Toby]

There's a lot more to it but it's beyond my scope and my knowledge/intelligence level to discuss it

Cheers!

There is more to it, as always.

I don't think it's beyond yours or anyone's intelligence to discuss such things - while there should be respect for and acknowledgement of specialist knowledge, there shouldn't be intelligenzia embargos on any topic, especially not if they're as wide ranging and close to home as the one we're talking about now.

I just know some sections of English society and specifically the football world have undertones of casual racism.

I remember it from footballing days, too, but especially casual every day racism is everywhere. The f*cking running away from lions stuff? Heard it like a million times.
The overall action of taking something as primariy descriptive and then deriving stereotyped, limited profiles and generalising groups of people is used with any minority, ethnicity - and even vice versa by exactly those against majorities. It's strange and I don't think it's good.

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

Playing Devil's advocate briefly, how do you know he doesn't have other abbrieviations? I would think it's likely he has, most scouts use some sort of code for players they are looking at.

I agree it's lazy and old fashioned though.

By the way, I'm not trying to defend him, I abhor racism in all forms, I just don't see it in this.

There's playing devil's advocate and there's something else which I don't know how to describe but it's like saying "how do you know the the serial killer actually meant to kill all of his victims rather than tap them on the shoulder?".

Most scouts and clubs have categories for different players, some which can also take into account nationality, but categorising all the different attributes by race is unheard of. So he's using BBQ for Big Black and Quick, which as I said before he'll need about 100 other categories just for Black players alone, and that's before he gets onto the other races.

There are a lot of white people about saying it's fine and there's nothing wrong with it, but in all my life I have never heard a black coach of which I know many describe a player as either white or black. I've never heard a black coach speaking about a black player as black and quick nor have I heard a black coach speaking about a white player as either white and quick or white and slow.

It's difficult to decipher and it goes a lot deeper than what I'm willing or can be bothered to go into, but there's something in the fact that a white coach would refer to a white player as "he's big and quick" but refer to a black player as being "he's black, big and quick". If there's no discrimination, no racism, no undertones of anything, then a player who is big and quick is big and quick, whether they are white or black is irrelevant unless someone is doing what I've witnessed in football for decades which is subconscious discrimination and racism.

Strangely there's also a positive sort of angle because the same sort of scouts and coaches actually look on black players favourably because they all think they are great athletes. I do see where the scout is going with it in that sense because I've witnessed some of the best young athletes I've seen who black, but there's a group of black footballers who aren't great athletes, who are intelligent, who do have good technical ability, who are creative who seem to get grouped into the "big black quick" category just because they are black, and if you have two players of equal athletic ability and equal skill level, the black one is always referred to as being powerful or a good runner whereas the white one is referred to as being intelligent or creative/skilful which is ridiculous.

 

[Toby]

I just don't see it in this.

It's not the outright racism of "I hate you and your f*cking race!"

It's the casual, under the surface racism of talking to e.g. random black people like they're drug dealers or "gangsters" just 'cause you saw it on TV and now think all of them behave and talk like this. See the dressing room example of the four academy players. I don't want to accuse you in any way of this, it's just an example and unfortuntely there's enough people who do it.

The limited profiling of black/african players as athletic, big and fast and nothing much else is not outright but inherently racist as it's specifically used to describe one group - and one group only - again and again, whose common denominator is their skin colour.

 

[Makingtrax]

Problem is that compliments like that are actually racist and, although difficult to prove, almost certainly wrong.

Thirty years ago you could have been forgiven for making your statement about the 100m record (I assume you meant male) about the heavyweight boxing title.

But the worst of it is that by deciding there is such a thing as racial superiority in anything the corollary is there is also inferiority. You use it innocently here to laugh at the KKK and their apologists will point to exam results to "prove" black inferiority.

People that have come from different regions have an evolutionary advantage over people who eminate from other areas. This is a scientific fact and not part of racism.

The ability of Etheopians from high altitude regions to keep their blood oxygenated for example is easily proven.

KKK and other racists have tried for decades to prove that black people have inferior intelligence, to no avail. The exam results of black students are only lower because they often come from disadvantaged homes, but are in line with white children from from similar socio-economic backgrounds.

 

[Mo Britain]

People that have come from different regions have an evolutionary advantage over people who eminate from other areas. This is a scientific fact and not part of racism.

The ability of Etheopians from high altitude regions to keep their blood oxygenated for example is easily proven.

KKK and other racists have tried for decades to prove that black people have inferior intelligence, to no avail. The exam results of black students are only lower because they often come from disadvantaged homes, but are in line with white children from from similar socio-economic backgrounds.

That, I'm afraid, is wanting to have your cake and eat it. "People who come from different regions" do not amount to a race, they amount to "people who have come from different regions" and benefitted from being brought up there.

The avail the KKK people would use is simply inverting your paradigm. They point to the small number of top black academics etc and say "it's because they are thick" as you point at the poor results of white athletes in sprints and say "it's because they are weaker".

 

[rich 1990]

Some threads on this forum have gone off on some ****ing weird tangents recently.

 

[Toby]

The avail the KKK people would use is simply inverting your paradigm. They point to the small number of top black academics etc and say "it's because they are thick" as you point at the poor results of white athletes in sprints and say "it's because they are weaker".

It's still the same end, though: the more money you have the better your education is and if you're black or of african heritage chances are good you're a fast runner and if you're a bad runner of any ethnicity you're a bad runner. That's what's lacking in KKK logic.

 

[Makingtrax]

Don't agree. Nor do my black friends.

I don't see a need to separate the races when they are talking about attributes that footballers have. Rather than positive discrimination, I see more of stereotyping that at least the black players I know dislike. There's no context to it. Iwobi isn't quick by quick footballer standards i.e Walcott, but these same sort of scouts would likely refer to Iwobi along the likes of "he's a winger, he's black, he's right footed"....I just see no need for the "black" part. For example, a scout could say " a French lad, a Nigerian lad" to describe a player's profile for the same reason he would describe his age or height but the use of the race and specifically Black doesn't make sense to me.

You might not agree but when it's used in this sort of football context I see it as more of a racial stereotype that first and foremost black players are just athletic, powerful, fast and not much else. It's always referenced first by commentators and pundits and black football fans always pick up on it, hence why I feel there's more to the subject than just positive discrimination. There's a deep-rooted negative stereotype about black footballers rife throughout the world which is why I feel there can be more to it when referencing black players being big and quick.

Most of those quotes are a hanger over from the raw and recent past where endless studies in the early 20th Century tried to prove that black people were less intelligent.

By implication they’re saying if you praise a black person for being fast or powerful you must be also be implying they are less smart, dumb or less technical. That isn’t necessarily the case.

There will be a need for society to redress the balance for a while until true equality finally arrives, which is why you often see adverts on TV where the stereotype man is portrayed as a clueless idiot, in order to elevate the role of women. That seems to be accepted by society.

We need to find similar ways to elevate black people in society to redress the years of cruel discrimination. But it does depend on the context and how it’s done, I take your point.

 

[Makingtrax]

That, I'm afraid, is wanting to have your cake and eat it. "People who come from different regions" do not amount to a race, they amount to "people who have come from different regions" and benefitted from being brought up there.

The avail the KKK people would use is simply inverting your paradigm. They point to the small number of top black academics etc and say "it's because they are thick" as you point at the poor results of white athletes in sprints and say "it's because they are weaker".

I don’t understand your point. Black people aren’t thicker, they’re just have less opportunities to become academics.

White athletes have the same opportunities in certain events but still can’t beat the races with an evolutionary advantage.

The first is a perceived dominance the second is real.

 

[OnlyOne]

This 'All for Nothing' documentary is actually incredible. Most amazing insight in what it's like to be apart of premier league team. I absolutely love it.

 

[A Lighter Shade of Blue]

This 'All for Nothing' documentary is actually incredible. Most amazing insight in what it's like to be apart of premier league team. I absolutely love it.

I'm loving the togetherness in the squad.

After KdB got the winner at Stamford Bridge last season, Pep joining in with everyone singing his name in the dressing room, is quality haha!

 

[OnlyOne]

I'm loving the togetherness in the squad.

After KdB got the winner at Stamford Bridge last season, Pep joining in with everyone singing his name in the dressing room, is quality haha!

Yeah it's really great, you fans are lucky to have such a well made and insightful documentary created around your club. I'd love one for Arsenal at some point.

 

[krengon]

Disregarding the irony here, what's he on about?

 

[A_G]

Disregarding the irony here, what's he on about?

The narrator had a dig at Mourinho in the documentary calling his style "park the bus football" or something to that effect.

 

[A_G]

Pep is low key mental

 

[A Lighter Shade of Blue]

Disregarding the irony here, what's he on about?

He's comical, Pep has really got under his skin, hasn't he?

The eye-gouging, Portuguese Pulis talking about class, is comical.

 

[A Lighter Shade of Blue]

Yeah it's really great, you fans are lucky to have such a well made and insightful documentary created around your club. I'd love one for Arsenal at some point.

Would have been unbelievable if one had been done during the Invincibles season.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

The way City played today was quite interesting. When they had the ball they essentially played a back three of Stones, Kompany and Laporte. Mendy very pushed up the left side while on the right side there was Bernardo though he and David Silva seemed to swap positions a lot of take turns in playing as the right wide man (wouldn't call it even a wing-back). Jesus constantly making runs to create space and drag Huddersfield players with Aguero occupying the space just in front of the Hudderfield defence trying to be difficult to mark and playing one-twos looking for openings.

Without the ball they went to a back four with Mendy and Stones as the full-backs, Stones have a pretty decent performance defensively.

It was quite interesting considering this team has 3 wingers in Sane, Sterling and Mahrez but on this occasion opted to play none of them. Perhaps because Huddersfield played a back 5 it'd be difficult for the wingers to get space and perhaps wouldn't be effective, while with two Silvas constantly taking up inside positions to easily outnumber in midfield. From a defensive point of view Huddersfield playing a left wing-back ended up being redundant, while the right wing-back was always in danger one on one against Mendy. City dragged Hudderfield players toward the City right flank by having the two Silva's, Aguero, there and as a result was able to isolate Mendy one on one with Smith on a number of occasions.

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