Arsène Wenger: Same Old Class

[Furious]

Always one extreme or the next with you.

Nowhere have I said I would make a better manager but it is clear as day our tactics leave us exposed against any half decent side. How can anyone deny this?

Whatever. But to claim he doesn't know about tactics in modern football isn't extreme?

Pretty ridiculous statement.

 

[Mark Tobias]

Wenger is stepping down at the end of the season.

Who does it benefit to try and guess the reasons behind it? Ot changes nothing

Neither does speculating about transfers yet we have a whole section of the forum purely for that.

Let people discuss this. It is a huge moment in the club;s history. There will be a difference of opinion.

Not in for bashing the man while he is stepping down but I think the debate is natural

 

[Mark Tobias]

Whatever. But to claim he doesn't know about tactics in modern football isn't extreme?

Pretty ridiculous statement.

It has been fairly common on here to address Wenger's tenure in two periods. The successful first decade and the disappointing second decade. The latter is riddled with losses from winning positions, thrashings from rivals and embarrassments by inferior teams.

Pretty clear to me the man has lost an edge and football has surpassed him in some ways.

If the man has such a great understanding of modern football then why are we sliced a part in the same manner game after game.

 

[Furious]

It has been fairly common on here to address Wenger's tenure in two periods. The successful first decade and the disappointing second decade. The latter is riddled with losses from winning positions, thrashings from rivals and embarrassments by inferior teams.

Pretty clear to me the man has lost an edge and football has surpassed him in some ways.

If the man has such a great understanding of modern football then why are we sliced a part in the same manner game after game.

Whilst he indeed has lost some edge in many ways, claiming him not to have any clue about football is pretty ridiculous.

In terms of trophies, yes you can address his tenure in two periods but looking at the bigger picture and context, there's much more to it.

96-05 - we agree here.

05-11 - worked on a budget yet still competitive, lost a couple of finals, and did well at times in the league.

11-13 rebulinding after being stabbed in the back by players he trusted so much. Still got top 4.

13 - present - 3 trophies, 1 point of top 4 last season, - this season has been a disaster but still got to a domestic final and now looking forward to an EL semifinal today.

I really, really fail to see how he is so clueless tactically in this modernized football.

 

[Mark Tobias]

I really, really fail to see how he is so clueless tactically in this modernized football.

If we were picked apart by teams in differig ways then I wouldn't hold this opinion but when I watch us get cut open defensively through the same types of opposition movement it becomes painfully obvious that Wenger can't see the same things he used to.

Tacically clueless, perhaps a bit strong. On the decline tactically more like it.

 

[Furious]

Our last successful implementation of counter-tactics against "modern" tactics, well-implemented by a manager in a good shape, was our 0-1 away win at Dortmund. That was four-and-a-half years ago. Since then, our only showings that had (actually seemed to have) any decent amount of tactical awareness were against Conte's Chelsea. But Conte, for whatever reason, has a very bad record against Wenger. We can safely say that it is the very nature of the match-up, just like when Wenger played Ferguson or Mourinho during the past decade. Every strategic approach has a weakness that some other strategic approaches will always manage to expose; this sums up Wenger's success against Conte for me, which makes it of a non-tactical nature. Wenger didn't do anything particular, be it proactive or reactive; Conte's approach is just not very effective against Wengerball.

Since that game against Dortmund, which was great, can you name one tactical masterclass by Wenger?

There's been plenty. Have you been in a coma or something? In recent seasons we've probably beaten the big clubs more often than ever since 2005.

That game against Dortmund we actually got our ass whipped but were lucky scoring from one chance. If that's well-implemented tactics, ok..

 

[Jury]

I’m not following. Aren’t we all one set of fans? Who’s reading between the lines and who’s getting defensive?

We clearly aren’t. Let’s not play games. We will be soon though.

 

[Mark Tobias]

We clearly aren’t. Let’s not play games. We will be soon though.

Um, no, we are one set of fans. With a division. But we are one set. Come on lad.

 

[Mark Tobias]

That game against Dortmund we actually got our ass whipped but were lucky scoring from one chance. If that's well-implemented tactics, ok..

This tactic won LCFC the league....

Go watch a Wenger team from 2001-2011.. Fast counter attacks and quick transitional play.
Then go watch the 2013-now period. Absolutely dire in the same aspect of the game. We didle and daddle on the ball, have no outlets, have no runs, ping it around the box aimlessly and eventually go backwards to Cech.

There is a massive difference in the way Wenger teams play these days compared to our glory days. We're slower, less incisive and much more susceptible to losing possession.

 

[Furious]

This tactic won LCFC the league....

Go watch a Wenger team from 2001-2011.. Fast counter attacks and quick transitional play.
Then go watch the 2013-now period. Absolutely dire in the same aspect of the game. We didle and daddle on the ball, have no outlets, have no runs, ping it around the box aimlessly and eventually go backwards to Cech.

There is a massive difference in the way Wenger teams play these days compared to our glory days. We're slower, less incisive and much more susceptible to losing possession.

And subsequently almost relegated them if they hadn't sacked the tactical "genius" you and a few others were drooling about. What's your point?

Yet people were crying at the time that we were tactically naive, no plan b, and what not. Rings any bell?

We've gone a bit off Wengerball and become less attractive to watch but in same token won more trophies so I'm not going to cry over that.

 

[krengon]

That game against Dortmund we actually got our ass whipped but were lucky scoring from one chance. If that's well-implemented tactics, ok..

The self-proclaimed tactical experts here are hilarious, I basically skip 90% of those posts..If we win a big game it's great tactics, if we lose it was bad

People love to point to the 0-2 away win vs City as a tactical masterclass and something different for us, but we've set up like that plenty of times without the results(then ofcourse we were tactically naive lol).

The 3-1 loss against Manu earlier in the season was one of our best games really this season, yet because we ended up losing after individual mistakes we got "outclassed" tactically by Mourinho.

 

[ThlRama]

There's been plenty. Have you been in a coma or something? In recent seasons we've probably beaten the big clubs more often than ever since 2005.

Yes? Well, name one. And a victory against a "big club" means nothing in this context, our discussion is supposed to be about games won because of good tactics implemented by the manager for that particular game and its particularities.

That game against Dortmund we actually got our ass whipped but were lucky scoring from one chance. If that's well-implemented tactics, ok..

Outplaying the opposition isn't always the point. We outplayed Dortmund at our ground, yet lost. Then Wenger responded by setting the team up away in a very uncharacteristic way, with the players motivated properly too, and we won in Germany. We got outplayed, but we hit Dortmund were they hurt, controlled aspects of the game and saw it out.

You think that was luck? Mourinho and late Ferguson made careers out of luck, Leicester won the PL with luck? The result of well worked out tactics seems like "luck" to the clueless, but I'm quite sure that you personally, as an Arsenal fan especially, understand the difference by now, after we lost for the hundredth time to opposition that we had outplayed.

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

The self-proclaimed tactical experts here are hilarious, I basically skip 90% of those posts..If we win a big game it's great tactics, if we lose it was bad

People love to point to the 0-2 away win vs City as a tactical masterclass and something different for us, but we've set up like that plenty of times without the results(then ofcourse we were tactically naive lol).

The 3-1 loss against Manu earlier in the season was one of our best games really this season, yet because we ended up losing after individual mistakes we got "outclassed" tactically by Mourinho.

That game against United that's always referenced as being a "good performance" was Arsenal all over to be honest. I posted a couple of hours before the game that I looked forward to sitting in the North Bank and watching United hit us on the counter.

I concede our attacking performance was good and we created a lot of chances, but from the first few minutes you could see the script of the game. It was the same against Leicester on the first day of the season and Liverpool at home. We were way too open. Whilst Mourinho didn't plan to concede so many chances, he definitely wanted to get an early goal and then sit back, make Arsenal chase the game and then hit us on the counter. If you remove the very visible individual errors in that particular game, we've seen that script play out time and time again at the Emirates , especially against United, and we've been especially vulnerable to counter attacks at home none more so than the game against Monaco in the quarter final of the UCL.

 

[Mark Tobias]

And subsequently almost relegated them if they hadn't sacked the tactical "genius" you and a few others were drooling about. What's your point?

.

One of the biggest reasons the league is difficult to hold and defend once won is because rivals become savvy to the tactics used. Agreed, LCFC used the same tactics and were horribly found out. One of the key resons for this was the loss of Kante... a Player who immediately turned defending into attacking.

Renieri didn't adjust at all and this is one of the reasons I feel his fluke PL was just that, a fluke. Albeit with the right tactics in place for the right season.

 

[Furious]

Yes? Well, name one. And a victory against a "big club" means nothing in this context, our discussion is supposed to be about games won because of good tactics implemented by the manager for that particular game and its particularities.

No we weren't, you brought it up. But pretty ****ing silly requirements. Good luck looking through archives of games yourself.

@krengon named the 2-0 away win at City. There you go.

Outplaying the opposition isn't always the point. We outplayed Dortmund at our ground, yet lost. Then Wenger responded by setting the team up away in a very uncharacteristic way, with the players motivated properly too, and we won in Germany. We got outplayed, but we hit Dortmund were they hurt, controlled aspects of the game and saw it out.

You think that was luck? Mourinho and late Ferguson made careers out of luck, Leicester won the PL with luck? The result of well worked out tactics seems like "luck" to the clueless, but I'm quite sure that you personally, as an Arsenal fan especially, understand the difference by now, after we lost for the hundredth time to opposition that we had outplayed.

Ehm okay. I'm sure you're making a good point, whatever you're trying to say here.

 

[celestis]

Our last successful implementation of counter-tactics against "modern" tactics, well-implemented by a manager in a good shape, was our 0-1 away win at Dortmund. That was four-and-a-half years ago. Since then, our only showings that had (actually seemed to have) any decent amount of tactical awareness were against Conte's Chelsea. But Conte, for whatever reason, has a very bad record against Wenger. We can safely say that it is the very nature of the match-up, just like when Wenger played Ferguson or Mourinho during the past decade. Every strategic approach has a weakness that some other strategic approaches will always manage to expose; this sums up Wenger's success against Conte for me, which makes it of a non-tactical nature. Wenger didn't do anything particular, be it proactive or reactive; Conte's approach is just not very effective against Wengerball.

Since that game against Dortmund, which was great, can you name one tactical masterclass by Wenger?

What about the 2-0 win against Tottnumb at home this season ?

 

[Kroket]

Conte's struggles against us since coming here are another example of Wenger still knowing a thing or two about tactics. Our recent FA Cup wins have had a few very well managed games as well.

No doubt we can do better but he's nowhere near the worst manager in the league when it comes to tactics. Think a lack of accountability and discipline are a bigger issue at the moment.

 

[marting]

Wenger is not rubbish tactically, modern football tactics haven’t blown his mind it’s very simple, Wenger is just very very naive. He concentrates on us and our game doesn’t worry to much about the opposition..... which was fine when we had a team and was better then everyone else. When your not as good as the teams around you, you need to be tactically better which Wenger doesn’t do because of his views on our quality. From time to time wenger does set the team up to manage an opponent and when he does he tends to do well.

 

[say yes]

Every reliable media organisation? In an industry where clickbait is its main weapon, creating ****ty headlines, lies and what not.. it's utterly nonsensical not to believe them?

But that’s why we’re talking about the reliable ones..

Nothing clickbaity about:
- The Guardian
- The Independent
- The Telegraph
- The Times
- Auclair
- arseblog
- etc

I mean the Times literally have a paywall - how is that conducive to clickbait? The Telegraph only allow you to read one premium article a month without signing up - again how is that conducive to clickbait?

Why don’t you cut all the hysteria and just say: ‘ I don’t believe anything the press says (unless I like the story).’ ?

Save yourself the trouble of having to type out this nonsense.

stick your common sense up where the sun doesn't shine.

Pretty much sums it all up.

 

[Mo Britain]

Our last successful implementation of counter-tactics against "modern" tactics, well-implemented by a manager in a good shape, was our 0-1 away win at Dortmund. That was four-and-a-half years ago. Since then, our only showings that had (actually seemed to have) any decent amount of tactical awareness were against Conte's Chelsea. But Conte, for whatever reason, has a very bad record against Wenger. We can safely say that it is the very nature of the match-up, just like when Wenger played Ferguson or Mourinho during the past decade. Every strategic approach has a weakness that some other strategic approaches will always manage to expose; this sums up Wenger's success against Conte for me, which makes it of a non-tactical nature. Wenger didn't do anything particular, be it proactive or reactive; Conte's approach is just not very effective against Wengerball.

Since that game against Dortmund, which was great, can you name one tactical masterclass by Wenger?

Without stretching my mind too much, the FA Cup semi-final against Man City last season.

It's not the tactics, which have been odd at times, but the quality of the team and the quality of the opponents that has been the biggest influence on our performances.