boyinneedofhumor
Active Member
Spotted spelling error in subject header - correct spelling is as follows:
D.E.P.R.E.C.I.A.T.I.O.N
D.E.P.R.E.C.I.A.T.I.O.N
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Arsène Wenger: 20 Years and Counting
- Thread starter Arsenal1508
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Webdesignlab
Established Member
This poor thread. It stood no chance.
... then today.
... then today.
Country: USA
Player:Saliba
People's beef with Wenger is misguided. Wenger gave Gazidis the green light to go for the players that you all wanted here. The way it works is this. The club makes an enquiry for the player they want. They are either given 1) a valuation his club is willing to consider or b) Told to **** off because the player isn't for sale.
In many cases b) is communicated indirectly through a) when the selling club sets a ludicrous valuation such as Villa and Newcastle did to Liverpool for Downing and Carroll. Wenger then gets consulted as to whether he would like the club to go ahead and negotiate, then, if he says yes, he tells Gazidis what he thinks the player is worth and how hard Gazidis should push, Gazidis and his team will then get in the queue with other interested buyers and present an offer to the player's club.
If that offer is deemed unsatisfactory, Gazidis will go back with a degree of sentiment about the club's appetite for negotiation and Wenger will direct him as to what extent continues to make a push for that player vs other targets. Simulataneously the player's agent is usually notified of all the clubs, including us, that have enquired about his services. Separate conversations between the player, his agent, and his club, take place because his club usually still have him under a decent contract, and if he is a grade A talent, it is likely he is at the kind of club that is sufficiently wealthy and ambitious to choose not to let him go. The player and his agent will also be made aware of the kind of salary he can expect to get from the clubs asking about him.
The people here that are moaning are probably doing so because they think that getting a player is down to how much money you offer and that if you chuck a wad of cash at his club, you'll get your targets. That is true to an extent, but only if you have the kind of cash PSG, Monaco, Real Madrid and Man City do. We have to work a lot harder than that unfortunately because we are not buying from small or poor clubs and they are clubs in direct competition with us. Wenger's reputation was built on pinching little known players from markets full of talent, primarily France. But now, every big club has scouts there and players in France and Germany don't even need to move abroad to find a club that meets their ambitions.
Wenger doesn't sit around the negotiation table like you guys think. When he is training the players in Asia who do you think is talking to his targets? Accuse him and Gazidis of failing to succeed in getting their players but don't accuse them of not trying. Selling our best players is what they should be shot for, because we've all seen how difficult it is to replace them.
My beef with Wenger is lack of prioritising specialists for specific positions and failing to address long standing tactical weaknesses at the expense of educating players for the long term. We have lacked balanced width for 8 years. Our full backs both push up the pitch at the same time and we do not have the needed central midfield cover. I could go on but I'll stop there. Please, if you need to lynch a guy like Wenger, then do so for something he is actually responsible for, not because everyone else's doing it.
In many cases b) is communicated indirectly through a) when the selling club sets a ludicrous valuation such as Villa and Newcastle did to Liverpool for Downing and Carroll. Wenger then gets consulted as to whether he would like the club to go ahead and negotiate, then, if he says yes, he tells Gazidis what he thinks the player is worth and how hard Gazidis should push, Gazidis and his team will then get in the queue with other interested buyers and present an offer to the player's club.
If that offer is deemed unsatisfactory, Gazidis will go back with a degree of sentiment about the club's appetite for negotiation and Wenger will direct him as to what extent continues to make a push for that player vs other targets. Simulataneously the player's agent is usually notified of all the clubs, including us, that have enquired about his services. Separate conversations between the player, his agent, and his club, take place because his club usually still have him under a decent contract, and if he is a grade A talent, it is likely he is at the kind of club that is sufficiently wealthy and ambitious to choose not to let him go. The player and his agent will also be made aware of the kind of salary he can expect to get from the clubs asking about him.
The people here that are moaning are probably doing so because they think that getting a player is down to how much money you offer and that if you chuck a wad of cash at his club, you'll get your targets. That is true to an extent, but only if you have the kind of cash PSG, Monaco, Real Madrid and Man City do. We have to work a lot harder than that unfortunately because we are not buying from small or poor clubs and they are clubs in direct competition with us. Wenger's reputation was built on pinching little known players from markets full of talent, primarily France. But now, every big club has scouts there and players in France and Germany don't even need to move abroad to find a club that meets their ambitions.
Wenger doesn't sit around the negotiation table like you guys think. When he is training the players in Asia who do you think is talking to his targets? Accuse him and Gazidis of failing to succeed in getting their players but don't accuse them of not trying. Selling our best players is what they should be shot for, because we've all seen how difficult it is to replace them.
My beef with Wenger is lack of prioritising specialists for specific positions and failing to address long standing tactical weaknesses at the expense of educating players for the long term. We have lacked balanced width for 8 years. Our full backs both push up the pitch at the same time and we do not have the needed central midfield cover. I could go on but I'll stop there. Please, if you need to lynch a guy like Wenger, then do so for something he is actually responsible for, not because everyone else's doing it.
goonerwarsh
Established Member
That's a fair post Poppa
Country: Scotland
Big Poppa, if Wenger wants a player he should tell Ivan I have 5 players I would like and 3 players that we need get me 2 of the 3 and 1 of the 5 and I will be delighted, now you go do the maths. Ivan looks, ok we have 70m and works out the rest.
Country: Canada
Appreciate him for what he's done. But not for what he's doing, it makes no sense... I'm at a loss.
k24bfan
Well-Known Member
Its AW fault for not spending. He should be pushing the board for players and top level players. This make do attitude is crap. When are we going to buy a proper DM our freaking midfield looks like a piece of garbage out there. Lambert out did tactically AW another manager we can add who understands the modern game than Arsenal.
Country: South Africa
Player:Nketiah
Big Poppa said:
Probably the crux of our failings over the last years, and something that Anzac also very much focuses on.
16 days to add respectability to our season, will it end by us putting together a massive **** you to all else and sundry?
Country: USA
Player:Saliba
@ goonerwarsh - I guess I'm just trying to explain that everyone's frustration is valid but it's in the wrong place. Wenger does himself no favours with his retort of 'we will buy if we find the right players' because it contradicts the reality of three parties needing to agree on all conditions for a transfer to happen and what he really means is not that the right players don't exist, but that the quality ones who are available like Cazorla are much more difficult to come by or are much more difficult to negotiate for. To that end, I'm not surprised that Wenger gets the blame from supporters but someone at the club needs to help him out here.
boyinneedofhumor
Active Member
Yes, but can you envisage Wenger willing to SOLELY focussing on training and coaching/maximising the potential of players, and leave the negotiations/valuation of a player to others?Big Poppa said:
Big Poppa said:
Agreed with your earlier post and the separation of 2 distinct and separate issues regarding the transfer market = strategy & execution. The former which often results in the square pegs compromises seen in the squad and on the pitch.
That said the crux of the issue in regards to the execution is that AW still holds the veto on the decision making process. No he does not take direct involvement on every transfer negotiation, but he still pulls the strings by setting the parameters within which the negotiation team operate.
We have had the earlier reports this summer that Gazidis had set up offers for BOTH Shrek and Fellaini, but AW vetoed them as he did not agree with the figures as they were above his valuations re fee and wages for Shrek, and above his valuation for wages re Fellaini. :bash
The talk re the Higuain transfer is akin to the dog with a bone / bird in the hand scenarios. :roll:
MrBump
Well-Known Member
The buck must stop with Wenger.
Why do we only seem to go for one player at a time ? And when we miss out on that player, we get nothing ?
To say we can't find players that are better than some our first teamers and constantly stick by it is pure arrogance.
Szescney, Ramsey, Giroud etc ???? On top of that we have no backup of our other at best decent player, Per, Koscielney, Ox, Podolski etc...
Wenger has fckd this all up !
To say he is our most successful manager of all time is ridiculous. We are in 2013, it means fck all if he's not performing now.
It's the same as Liverpool, one of the most successful clubs in history but garbage now.
There is only one way to go if you wanna trade off history.
I'm out, I am now in the Rust brigade.
Why do we only seem to go for one player at a time ? And when we miss out on that player, we get nothing ?
To say we can't find players that are better than some our first teamers and constantly stick by it is pure arrogance.
Szescney, Ramsey, Giroud etc ???? On top of that we have no backup of our other at best decent player, Per, Koscielney, Ox, Podolski etc...
Wenger has fckd this all up !
To say he is our most successful manager of all time is ridiculous. We are in 2013, it means fck all if he's not performing now.
It's the same as Liverpool, one of the most successful clubs in history but garbage now.
There is only one way to go if you wanna trade off history.
I'm out, I am now in the Rust brigade.
Such a perfect timing, just before a game with Villa lulz.
This thread smells like a RAWK thread. Like "the Stewart Downing Appreciation Thread" or "the Andy Carroll Appreciation Thread".
I bet some Nottingham Forrest fans supported Brian Clough even when he got them relegated, blaming the board(and probably they were right in some degree).
This thread smells like a RAWK thread. Like "the Stewart Downing Appreciation Thread" or "the Andy Carroll Appreciation Thread".
I bet some Nottingham Forrest fans supported Brian Clough even when he got them relegated, blaming the board(and probably they were right in some degree).
E
Enoch
Guest
I'll probably get you lot mad for saying this, but if they get Lamela and Willian, Sp**s are a better team than us. The only reason we scraped fourth last season was 'cause Sp**s collapsed.
This team is the worst in Wenger's era, not only are we fielding the same starting eleven as last year, Wenger has thinned the squad to where we are one injury away from fielding inexperienced young players from our reserve squad (its already happened with Chamberlain), not to mention we have not brought in replacements for the players we've sold, hell, we haven't even bought players to IMPROVE our starting eleven, and now, because we left it so late, we cant even buy our second tier players 'cause Gazidis liked boasting about how much money we have 2 months ago.
I have defended Wenger these past eight years and even i'm scratching my head at this summer, i mean, how can i defend this summer? I cant, their is nothing to defend about this summer at all. I'll happily wait for 2 September, but if we sign no one or not good enough players that improves this squad by that day, then all i can say to Mr. Wenger is, pride comes before the fall.
This team is the worst in Wenger's era, not only are we fielding the same starting eleven as last year, Wenger has thinned the squad to where we are one injury away from fielding inexperienced young players from our reserve squad (its already happened with Chamberlain), not to mention we have not brought in replacements for the players we've sold, hell, we haven't even bought players to IMPROVE our starting eleven, and now, because we left it so late, we cant even buy our second tier players 'cause Gazidis liked boasting about how much money we have 2 months ago.
I have defended Wenger these past eight years and even i'm scratching my head at this summer, i mean, how can i defend this summer? I cant, their is nothing to defend about this summer at all. I'll happily wait for 2 September, but if we sign no one or not good enough players that improves this squad by that day, then all i can say to Mr. Wenger is, pride comes before the fall.
Uncle Mike
Established Member
And George Graham couldn't beat Wrexham.law90026 said:
Come to think of it, neither could Herbert Chapman.
Uncle Mike
Established Member
Clough was a raging alcoholic who was stuck in a 1970s mentality, and had lost Peter Taylor, without whom he did nothing -- twice.Camel said:
As Clough himself might have said, I wouldn't say this was the dumbest way to suggest sacking Wenger, but it's in the bottom one.
Uncle Mike said:
Wenger won nothing since he lost David Dein too. Can I say that Arsène is stuck in old times? Crying that oligarch clubs ruined football while Dortmund with Klopp won two leagues on the trot and got to the CL final.
I hinted that you can't live on past glories, at least in our club. Come on, are you really satisfied with this trainwreck of a window, Mike?
Sydney Gooner
Established Member
It could be argued Michael that Wenger is a delusional idealist who is stuck in a 1990's mentality, who has lost David Dein, without whom he'll never win anything again.
As Wenger himself might have said if god forbid we got relegated under him you wouldn't have seen it.
As Wenger himself might have said if god forbid we got relegated under him you wouldn't have seen it.
fabo
6.51 / 10
Title challenger ahead of City............
Uncle Mike
Established Member
What train wreck? (I've never seen it written as one word.) We brought in Sanogo and got rid of a bunch of players who never should have been here. That's a net plus.Camel said:
Don't tell me our rivals have improved. They have not. Man U lost their all-conquering manager and replaced him with a clueless mug who should have won a few trophies at Everton with that talent. Chelsea are no better. Man City are no better. Tottenham lost Dempsey and will lose Bale, and what have they brought in to replace them? Players not good enough for big clubs like the preceding, including us.
Yes, we have injury issues. We always have injury issues. We always finish at least 4th anyway.
This season is a golden opportunity. Add the right players -- Sanogo is one -- and we win the whole thing.
Suarez is not the right player. Look, was Keith Moon a better drummer than Ringo Starr? Most people would say yes. Would he have been the right drummer for the Beatles? Oh hell no. Forget Suarez and Rooney, and concentrate on players who would make us better.
Or did the story of Charlie Nicholas teach you nothing?
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