Arsène Wenger: 20 Years and Counting

[Anzac]

Wenger is to Arsenal what Cruyff was to Barcelona and Ajax and Sacchi was to Milan. He has transformed the club. We would have been an Everton right now if it wasn't for him.

Except that both those managers actually succeeded on the highest stage. :bash

Further to that Cruyff instigated a legacy at Barca that has not only endured for more than 2 decades, but has also seen the rise of possibly one of THE greatest club sides in the history of the game, and has then impacted into one of the greatest national sides in the history of the game. :roll:

 

[Anzac]

Anzac posting in the "Wenger appreciation" thread

Did you miss my earlier post?
8))

 

[Revolution]

@ ASAP Berg

No one could've done more than 4th with the squads Arsène has had at his disposal, especially over the past two years. We have lost our best players every summer since 2005 (except 2010). Nobody can win trophies when that happens.

History will judge the post 2005 Wenger a LOT more kindly. He has transformed the club almost single handedly.

We have been linked with some of the worlds best players this summer. The deals may not have gone through but it is clear to see our situation has changed. I have no doubt we will be shopping at the top end of the market going forward. We're at the start of a new era. That's down to Wenger.

Look at this way. People downplay the 16 years of champions league qualification. We currently get about £30m per season just for qualifying. That figure would've been lower 14 years ago. However, in that period we've also made the final, a semi and a few quarters. Taking an average of £25m a season, that equates to £400m. Almost the stadium worth.

And that's not including the improved commercial deals that have come about partially due to our continuous presence in that tournament, partially due to the amazing football we have played under his tenure and partially due to the huge global fan base we have built up over this period. All down to Wenger.

Wenger is to Arsenal what Cruyff was to Barcelona and Ajax and Sacchi was to Milan. He has transformed the club. We would have been an Everton right now if it wasn't for him.

Like I said before, Arsène's legacy at Arsenal has been shifted to a manager who will be remembered for seeing the club's move to the new stadium. Perhaps the style of football too, but I think it might be secondary.

We had no European pedigree before Arsène, albeit the odd cup won by Graham, so for him to ensure consistent participation in Europe is/was something. He was the first manager to publicly recognise the changing climate of European football and the importance of CL qualification.

 

[onetowatch]

Wenger is to Arsenal what Cruyff was to Barcelona and Ajax and Sacchi was to Milan. He has transformed the club. We would have been an Everton right now if it wasn't for him.

Except that both those managers actually succeeded on the highest stage. :bash

Further to that Cruyff instigated a legacy at Barca that has not only endured for more than 2 decades, but has also seen the rise of possibly one of THE greatest club sides in the history of the game, and has then impacted into one of the greatest national sides in the history of the game. :roll:

IMO the true legacy that Wenger has left behind will be seen over the next 10-20 years or so. We are now a superclub. So it's a wait and see job re: your points.

@ Revolution. Stadium, style of play, training and facilities, youth academy, much bigger fan base, much greater commercial appeal....a lot of which has ironically taken place in the barren years. Goes to show trophies are important but aren't everything when assessing the bigger picture.

 

[mavelous]

Tbf we've come up against Barca, Barca, Milan and Bayern in the last 4 seasons. Two eventual winners, all European powerhouses. We have a decent shot at the Champions league although we're behind the big 5 (Barca, Bayern, Real, Utd and Chelsea).

if you look at it that way, we're probably about where we should be. might, might have a chance against the likes of city or psg, and that's saying a lot if we outdo the money-ed clubs in europe (although ourselves aren't that poor anymore), then of course there are juve and dortmund that run on similar principles as us but on a good day could hand us a spanking.

i tried to map european superpowers in terms of current spending ability and attractive power in the transfer market. not exactly the same thing as on field ability, but an interesting exercise nonetheless.

- sugar daddy skanks 4: chelsea, city, psg, monaco (didn't include anzhi, zenit, or malaga)

- superpowers with history, infrastructure, revenue, stadium etc, 4: united, madrid, barca, bayern

after that comes a list of second tier clubs. remains to be seen if the project at BVB is capable of another euro run or maintenance of latter-knockout-stages level for a few years. juventus obviously have a very good team and a stronghold over the old news that is seria a. even napoli and perhaps a surprise package out of spain could be included here. this list doesn't include anyone outside of top 5, but then again, top players are welcome to commit career **** in russia/ukraine for the sake of money.

 

[Anzac]

IMO the true legacy that Wenger has left behind will be seen over the next 10-20 years or so. We are now a superclub. So it's a wait and see job re: your points.

@ Revolution. Stadium, style of play, training and facilities, youth academy, much bigger fan base, much greater commercial appeal....a lot of which has ironically taken place in the barren years. Goes to show trophies are important but aren't everything when assessing the bigger picture.

I'm sorry - just what IS this legacy that will bear fruits over the next 20 years?
As for Super club = we have the POTENTIAL/building blocks in place to achieve that but we are NOT a super club on OR off the pitch as yet. Part of the ongoing issue that stops us from realising that potential is that we are NOT utilising those building blocks other than in a reactionary manner.

As for the 2nd part = I presume these are the points of AW's 'legacy'?

* Stadium - the intent was not his & nor was the decision or the outcome. It is reported that AW was initially opposed to the idea of building re the debt, until he was given assurances that the transfer budget for the football team would NOT be impacted by the stadium build. This also goes to refute the theory that our finances were restricted by the stadium, let alone the fallacy that we were restricted by the stadium AFTER the move;

* Style of play = has basically been more ****e than not since 2008-09. Occasionally sublime but more often ridiculous;

* Training and facilities - training concentrates primarily on individual technique and close passing. Plenty of former players have said we don't train as units & not do we partake in drills or train set pieces. AW has said that he doesn't tell players what to do unless as a last resort, but prefers for them to learn via game time.
As for the facilities = comes with supposedly being an elite club;

* Youth Academy - a recent article from Arseblog(??) that was linked on one of the threads has indicated how the Technical/football operation is falling apart and has become dysfunctional. We have elements that do not talk to each other and our academy results and outcomes are going backwards. After more than a decade we still buy MORE foreign players towards HG criteria than we produce;

* Fan Base - that has been passed by CFC & is almost matched by City, and despite the global numbers we are BEHIND the likes of LFC in the English speaking nations;

* Commercial Appeal - as seen by Nike screwing us over & Addidas reportedly withdrawing from negotiations? Or that even with our new deal we have performance clauses from the sponsor = good business from them IF they have question marks over the ambition or ability to fulfil those criteria, and I doubt those same sorts of clauses would be imposed upon the likes of ManU, Bayern, Barca, RM & the rest of the Euro Elite or Mega Rich.

AW HAS done a remarkable job and his CL qualification beyond Group Stage IS 2nd only in consistency to RM.
However let's NOT attribute outcomes to him simply because he was manager during this time, as on that basis PHW would deserve MORE praise and accolades as the Chairman for most of it.

For mind AW's performance is akin to so many school reports
- above average outcomes but can do better
= B- for achievements and C- for effort.

 

[k24bfan]

I feel people still love AW because of 2004 and the 16 years of CL. We should be aiming higher now.

 

[FinnGooner]

onetowatch and a few other may find the following link helpful:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.cultinformation.org.uk/article_caring-for-cult-victims.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.cultinformation.org.uk/artic ... ctims.html</a>

 

[Enfield]

How does Wenger explain away the fact that he couldn't find anyone of top top top top top quality and better than what he has and then signs Flamini. How is Flamini better than Gustavo, Feillaini, Gundogan, Wilshere, Ramsey and Arteta.

The guy has done a lot for our club but the above question gives us an example of why he should go, he should be long gone.

If you are heading to the Emirates then maybe we should change the chant to 'spend OUR ****1ng money' or 'this is our club, not yours Arsène'

The guy has been paid 50mil since we last won a trophy. If he cares about our club so much how come he can't find the extra money for someone we need.

 

[onetowatch]

Anzac, I typed out a full response to your post but the page refreshed and I lost it. I'll reply tomorrow mate.

 

[Anzac]

Anzac, I typed out a full response to your post but the page refreshed and I lost it. I'll reply tomorrow mate.

Happens to me all the time.

All good - wasn't having a go as such & didn't intend it to come across as such & apologies if it did.
I just wanted to clarify / get down to specifics re the legacy etc.

I look forward to reading your response. 8))

 

[onetowatch]

IMO the true legacy that Wenger has left behind will be seen over the next 10-20 years or so. We are now a superclub. So it's a wait and see job re: your points.

@ Revolution. Stadium, style of play, training and facilities, youth academy, much bigger fan base, much greater commercial appeal....a lot of which has ironically taken place in the barren years. Goes to show trophies are important but aren't everything when assessing the bigger picture.

I'm sorry - just what IS this legacy that will bear fruits over the next 20 years?
As for Super club = we have the POTENTIAL/building blocks in place to achieve that but we are NOT a super club on OR off the pitch as yet. Part of the ongoing issue that stops us from realising that potential is that we are NOT utilising those building blocks other than in a reactionary manner.

The potential is there. We are by most measures one of the top 5 richest clubs in the world. And that's despite the barren run. We are one if the biggest clubs in the world. IMO the new sponsorship deals we negotiated last season mark the watershed for the new era as we now have the revenue streams that make us less reliant on player sales. For me this is the first window where we can really compete for the top players. I refuse to judge Arsène on one window alone. We have clearly been linked with some top players and have put in bids. So I refute the 'not utilising' bit of your post.

As for the 2nd part = I presume these are the points of AW's 'legacy'?

* Stadium - the intent was not his & nor was the decision or the outcome. It is reported that AW was initially opposed to the idea of building re the debt, until he was given assurances that the transfer budget for the football team would NOT be impacted by the stadium build. This also goes to refute the theory that our finances were restricted by the stadium, let alone the fallacy that we were restricted by the stadium AFTER the move;

Regardless of whose intent it was, the move was only possible (and required) due to the on field success that Wenger was delivering. This led to a burgeoning season ticket waiting list and fan base. We outgrew Highbury during the Wenger years. I don't know, Anzac. Wenger and Gazidis have both referred to restricted finances due to the stadium move on more than one occasion. Wenger even said he had to go down the Youth project route for that reason. I find it incredibly hard to believe that moving to a new £450m home and suffering the poor commercial deals that we had to tie ourselves down to long term for that would not have an impact on our transfer budget.

* Style of play = has basically been more **** than not since 2008-09. Occasionally sublime but more often ridiculous;

That's not true. The football played in 2009-10 (we were on course to break the 100 goal record until Chelsea went on to do that instead) and 2010-11 was some of the best I've seen under Wenger. Then we lost Cesc, Nasri and RvP so naturally the quality of play suffered in the following two seasons. Ask any neutral, even now, who plays the best football in the league and most would say us. He transformed our style from the boring boring arsenal days of the early 90s.

* Training and facilities - training concentrates primarily on individual technique and close passing. Plenty of former players have said we don't train as units & not do we partake in drills or train set pieces. AW has said that he doesn't tell players what to do unless as a last resort, but prefers for them to learn via game time.
As for the facilities = comes with supposedly being an elite club;

But we are an elite club mostly due to Wenger. TA and the old gang have all alluded to how Wengers training and dietary methods prolonged there career. Tony was so complimentary just yesterday in the Sky Sports piece with Ledley King. Even Arsène's fiercest critics admit that he revolutionised this aspect of football in his early days. Also, wasn't the new training ground built under his tenure? I'm not going to (nor am i qualified enough to) get into his exact training methods. They seemed to work 1997-2005.

* Youth Academy - a recent article from Arseblog(??) that was linked on one of the threads has indicated how the Technical/football operation is falling apart and has become dysfunctional. We have elements that do not talk to each other and our academy results and outcomes are going backwards. After more than a decade we still buy MORE foreign players towards HG criteria than we produce;

Ok, our youth teams are going through a relatively tough patch right now. But it was only last season they made the semis of the NextGen series (youth champions league). Arsenal are renowned throughout the world for giving young players a chance. We have Gibbs, Jack and Szczesny in our current first XI from our academy. Ramsey, Theo, Ox were bought in very young (under 18). Our youth academy is one of the best in the country.

* Fan Base - that has been passed by CFC & is almost matched by City, and despite the global numbers we are BEHIND the likes of LFC in the English speaking nations;

I would seriously doubt that City or Chelsea have a bigger following than us. The Arsenal blogosphere is the biggest in the world and the Arsenal Officla twitter handle has more followers than any other Prem club. Our fan base is huge. Only United and possibly Liverpool surpass it. You can't deny our fan base has grown exponentially during Wenger's time here.

* Commercial Appeal - as seen by Nike screwing us over & Addidas reportedly withdrawing from negotiations? Or that even with our new deal we have performance clauses from the sponsor = good business from them IF they have question marks over the ambition or ability to fulfil those criteria, and I doubt those same sorts of clauses would be imposed upon the likes of ManU, Bayern, Barca, RM & the rest of the Euro Elite or Mega Rich.

The deals we have negotiated are amongst the biggest in world football. And we negotiated them at a point when we had gone 8 years without a trophy. Imagine what we could do if we were winning. From what I've read similar clauses are pretty standard in such deals. And I'd rather had the clauses there to give the club an incentive to keep pushing ahead. Our commercial appeal and fan base (linked) have both grown massively during Wenger's time here.

AW HAS done a remarkable job and his CL qualification beyond Group Stage IS 2nd only in consistency to RM.
However let's NOT attribute outcomes to him simply because he was manager during this time, as on that basis PHW would deserve MORE praise and accolades as the Chairman for most of it.

Why can't we attribute outcomes to him? He managed the team and was responsible for the on field success that led to most if not all the factors above. His critics say he has too much power at the club. Then they're reluctant to give him credit. You can't have it both ways.

For mind AW's performance is akin to so many school reports
- above average outcomes but can do better
= B- for achievements and C- for effort.

 

[Anzac]

@ onetowatch

fair points....

1. Our status amongst the top5 most valuable and richest clubs is due to:
* share prices paid by Kroenke in his take0ver;
* match gate revenues thanks to the highest ticket prices in the game;
* EPL TV revenues.

<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes%27_list_of_the_most_valuable_football_clubs#See_also" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes%27_ ... s#See_also</a>

compare the figures from 2007 & 2008 re value, revenue & operating income.
These figures are published 'in season' = 2006-07 & 2007-08 so represent a before & after move snapshot.

Our commercial revenues have been poor in relation to the top20 clubs, but this should change.

2. I do not dispute that the stadium PROJECT had an ongoing impact regarding restricted cash flow as a result of the front loaded major sponsorship deals in order to raise initial finance. What I vehemently dispute is that this impacted AFTER the move as we started construction 3 years BEFORE the move. After the move we received a MASSIVE increase in match gate revenues as per the above figures.
The further issue is that we've continued to post PROFITs during this period of 'restricted finance', and we've asset stripped in order to do so WITHOUT directly reinvesting back into the team.
IMO the club could/should have both reinvested AND improved the number of commercial deals to improve the revenues & cash flow.

3. As I said - occasionally sublime but more often than not ridiculous IMO. The issue being that the style of those sublime periods was not sustained over the season due to injuries, but then the issue was not addressed and AW reverted to his default 451 to flood the midfield. IMO sine the sale of Fabregas 2 seasons ago we have been ****e as we've lacked the players to execute tiki-taka Barca Lite style even with Arteta & Cazorla, because we lack both the balance AND have far too many inconsistent developing players in the team at the same time.

4. Adams has previously said that AW's diet methods didn't stop him & others from ignoring them still having their Fish and Chips. IIRC he has disputed the claim that AW's diet methods were directly responsible for extending his playing career.
The training methods worked because of the quality, age/maturity of the players. LeSulk was the youngest as was TH when he replaced him. The back5 were all long serving internationals. TH was a WC winner the year BEFORE he joined us. Point being that NONE were as young, inexperienced or developing as the squad post 2008. Today we have developed Gibbs, Kos, Jenkinson, Rambo, Wilshere, Walcott, Ox, Szczesny via the senior team, most of whom are STILL in development.

5. See above re youth/academy.

6. <a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20974695" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20974695</a>

7. Our deals are out of sync with the rest of our top4 competitors and indications are that ManU will again smash our deals. That said IMO the issue ISN'T the renewed primary deals, but more so that they represent the vast majority of our commercial revenues. In 2012 ManU signed as many NEW secondary deals as we have IN TOTAL. We have too many eggs in too few baskets.

8. When I joined this site in about 2006 I was an avid AW supporter. One of my earliest recollections was having a dispute with a former member Biggus regarding AW as manager. My only criticism of The Highbury Years was/is that AW never made it a priority to defend a league title to establish genuine dominance.
I first started to seriously question his methods in Jan2008 when IMO his refusal to take direct action in the market to address the squad injury issues lost us the EPL and opportunity to reach the CL Final. I lost 'faith' in the summer of 2008 when he instigated the youth project at the core of the senior team & then changed our shape to accommodate Fabregas & tiki-taka style. IMO we've been on a downward spiral ever since & it should have been directly addressed in both 2011 when we sold Fabregas, and again this summer with our improved revenues.

IMO he should have been sacked in the summer of 2011.
Firstly regarding our league form post the CCup Final debacle. Our form post that loss at the end of Feb saw us only win 3 more games in ALL comps for the remainder of the season. We were out of ALL the Cups in March, yet our league form was P11 W2 D6 L3 GF15 GA16.
Secondly regarding the sale of Fabregas as he went directly against the wishes of the BoD twice - firstly in regards to the sale and secondly regards the price.

 

[a_fourteen]

Arsène KNOWS

 

[a_fourteen]

Arsène KNOWS

 

[arshy9]

He really does.

Jeremy Wilson @JWTelegraph

Interesting that Özil statement should
include a Kroenke endorsement of Wenger.
Contract talks have started for the manager
as well #afc

Özil kept praising Wenger.I also apprectiate Kroenke's movement on this.

 

[Original_AAA]

As one who often criticise Wenger, I'm now going to give him due credit. The capture of Özil was a brilliant piece of business! Well done mr Wenger.

 

[Buhry]

Amazing signing, I can only bow down to Wenger for this one. Shame we didn't get a striker though but hopefully this signing is an indication that maybe he's willing to change his ways a bit. Let's see how the season goes and what he does when January comes around.

 

[k24bfan]

We got Özil because of AW. Need to change image of club with next few summer windows and win some trophies. He's going to sign a new contract soon I bet.

 

[Lakersgooner24]

Wenger is far from perfect but he's amongst the most highly regarded football men in the world. We're lucky to have him in that sense. We definitely wouldn't have gotten Özil without Wenger.