Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by M+D, Aug 3, 2010.
unlike Doozi, Willock can attack and defend.
Don’t like Willock in that 10 role the England u20s played him in during the Toulon tournament. He got goals but he wasn’t involved enough and just looked out of place there.
He’s an 8 and I think him and ESR will be battling it out during pre-season to see who stays and who goes on loan.
@MutableEarth @Maybe @scytheavatar
You missed the point, all of you. We should not RELY on kids. I love to play some youngsters, and if they prove themselves fine we can play them more often. But if we for example have Nketiah as our only backup for laca/auba we are ****ed.
Do you guys not agree?
You think we should have kids that played 7 games in pl as our backup players?
We should have these kids as our starters and rely on them?
I don't believe you really think that is a good idea.
I don't agree and here is why:
1.) Your argument are not suited for Arsenal current situation. You mindset is still with the invincibles where Joe Willock should replace Vieira and Nketiah should replace Henry. The standards of first team are on 20 year low where only 4-5 players are considered to be good enough to be at the club.
2.) You are not considering our financial issues. While you do understand that we need to replace deadwood, you expect that money will fall from the sky and we will just buy 5-6 players. We won't and we shouldn't do that. That's why I consider integrating 5 younger players and buying 2 top class is the most important thing next season, more important than results.
3.) Value of first team squad is dropping every year. We are not attractive enough for elite young players from Europe and that's why we need to integrate our own to create future value.
4.) We've become more or less a club where players are coming in to finish their careers on huge contracts offering nothing in return. Swapping them for academy players that were raised by Arsenal would change that. If you think Özil or Mkhi on huge wages will offer more on the pitch next year than Willock or ESR, I think you are in for a disappointment.
The worst thing of all is that current first team is not good enough to make any results, and at the same time there is no interest in any of our overpaid players from other clubs making this transition impossible without youth
1. Imagine if half our startes had the problems guendouzi had during last season. It's not a good thing for the young players and its not good for the team. You have to give them chances slowly during the season and not rely on them(my entire point).
2.Placing even worse for years because we took a chance on players that have zero experiance at top level is not the way to do it, see above answer for what I think is correct.
3. I agree, i've said nothing different on this point at all. There is a big difference from integrating and relying on kids with zero experiance.
4. I'm not a big fan of özil or Mkhi tbf but they are probably offering more over a season than both those. You of course have zero ground for what you are saying since these guys have played what 10-20 games combined at a good level in their life? Can't believe you think Özil is worse than these two? I dont like him but cmon..
We definitely shouldn’t rely on the youngsters, that’s a recipe for disaster( and there are only a few in the world that’s good enough for that kind of responsibility at such a young age).
All I want is for them to get a chance to show if they belong, then it’s up to their performances to convince the manager they deserve more playing time and opportunities. Playing only league cup and El group stages with other youngsters and squad players is not a real chance either, those who stand out there needs to be given an opportunity with the first team too in games with real stake.
What does not 'rely on' even mean?
Not being facetious, but to me it's a synonym of trust. You trust/rely that someone does a job.
If by 'rely on' you mean that a youngster (or any player really) is our only realistic option in a position, then that's an obvious statement.
To me, it means that you trust a youngster to challenge for a starting spot and if performance (or lack there of from the competition) warrants it this player gets to play, regardless of age.
In that regard, I think we can rely more on our youngsters.
Last season, I would've preferred Osei-Tutu to get more minutes instead of Jenkinson or Lichtsteiner. At least, there would be a potential upside. Same for Amaechi on the wing (given that Nelson was on loan) when Mkhitaryan and Iwobi were dithering there. Nketiah could've gotten more minutes especially with the injury to Welbeck. Willock especially could've gotten more minutes when Guendouzi had a slump in his performance.
There are just too many upsides to integrating youth more in our setup. If we're supposedly modeling after Ajax in the next few years, I fully expect a substantial role for Bielik, Willock, Nelson(, obviously Guendouzi), AMN, at the very least, and squad roles for one of Amaechi/Saka and anyone who can surprise positively in pre-season (ideally in fullback). I wouldn't mind giving more minutes to Nketiah, but I think his development calls for a season long loan.
Ideally, we would already have a suitable backup for both fullbacks as well, but I don't think that is the case. In that case we could sell both Monreal and Kolasinac and only buy Tierney in return and wouldn't have to spend our limited budget on an overpriced backup for Bellerin.
Looks like Osei-Tutu is going to VfL Bochum on loan.
Stunning sense of entitlement.
There was a time when the likes of Benik Afobe and Chuks Aneke were linked to Barcelona before signing their professional contracts. Where are they now?
He'll learn soon enough.
Smith-Rowe nearly signed for Barca too.
Think Musah will stay if I'm honest. Will be a big blow if he does leave but a blow softened by Miguel Azeez still being at the club thankfully.
Musah should look at our midfield options and fancy him self in next couple of years. There isn't a single midfielder we have in seniors that is worth keeping.
Sign dat contract son!
If we don't want to give talented kids like Nketiah and Saka chances then we should close down our club. Permanently. How the heck do you expect us to be competitive with the other big clubs if none of our academy players succeed? And how can our academy players succeed if we deprive them chances to prove themselves?
It's one thing if Nketiah and Saka get games and play poorly. But now they are getting scraps.
Agreed on every point.
Frankly, im done with our overpaid 1st team...bin the lot.
You can't have read my posts mate. I don't disagree with anything you've said in your post.
I'd love to give the kids chances, let them play, but not rely on them, they should not be starters. They should not be our only backup for positions. If they play well - let them play more.
This is the reality for most of these kids. Couple of weeks back people in this thread we acting all indignant about why we didn't give this super talent a shot at RB. Now after having had trials all over the place, it turns out 2. Bundesliga is his current level.
Discussing stuff with people like you who don't even watch Arsenal games is pointless.
If there is a player we should never again rely on, it would be Özil. 6 goals and 3 assists without playing defence is not an argument that would go in your favour, it just proves my point. That's the output we would get from any of our young players up front.
Relying on kids would mean that we sell our important players and replace them with kids. Integrating kids means getting rid of the deadwood and replace them with kids. The thing is, majority of our first team is rubbish, that's why kids at Arsenal would actually have important role in our next season instead of just being integrated slowly. That's choosing between rubbish player and academy product, and I'd take academy product every time because it will save us money and create future value. If you can't understand this, I'm afraid we are just wasting time here.
Really, saying im not watching games now? Man listen i support Arsenal. I hope you are right and things are that easy. You just put in talent kids instead of experiance players and everything works out. Very often it does not from what i've seen.
I'm not saying im right, but i don't think it works the way you say it does.
I don't get the issue with loaning out our young players. Historically this is what we've always done! The ones who do well, come back into the fist team.
Bendtner, Vela, Bellerin, Coquelin, Maitland-Niles, Szczesny, Wilshere, Ramsey, I can go on and on.
If the young players are good enough, please prove it either when you're given the chance or prove it on loan.
I must balance what the above though. Our coaches must also ensure that players who we buy/loan for the first team must be better than the ones we have in the academy.
All the above is based on the assumption that we want to compete for top 4. If we're fine with our 5th/6th/7th position, then we can do what you guys are suggesting and play our young players in the first team.
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