Arsenal Tactics Talk

[The_Roadrunner]

Agreed & in many ways I think the fallacy re the type of player required was fuelled in the most part by AW himself because he seemed hell bent on doing so, so as to enable his style that he has been trying to make work since 2009.
As such IMO he's been his own worst enemy as he lost focus in 08/09 when he made the development project part of the match day squad and starting XI.

An untried midfield of Fabregas-Denilson/Diaby/Song failed & we saw a change in shape to a 3 man midfield in Jan'09 to strengthen via numbers, and AA was bought to improve our quality in attack whilst Fabregas was moved from CM to CAM. The issue then became a lack of quality supply from the 2 CMs & this was firstly resolved by Wilshere alongside Song, and then Arteta in the same role and then as DLP.
IMO AW lost focus as he looked to provide playing time for project players to develop & accordingly he looked to internal solutions re shape, numbers & roles rather than simply directly addressing the original issue. As a consequence we've gone down the square pegs path and are undermining the team by continuing to make compromises looking to still find internal solutions to an original compromise.

AW has been chasing his tail for 6 years & 2 squads based upon his willingness to compromise and put player development & his philosophy about the game style ahead of the team capability.

IMO there is nothing we have seen post the loss to Saints in the player roles in this new system that we couldn't have done in response to 08/09 at the time. As you say Cazorla is essentially doing what we saw from Fabregas as CM in 07/08 & now at CFC. Song was more than capable of playing as a DM as we see from Coquelin now & as he (Song) is doing at WHam.

By playing the FBs in a supporting role to work with the DM we are essentially playing a 5-5 split as seen during The Highbury Era. Not only does this provide a better balance in the team structure than the 3-7 seen since we've looked to play in the opposition half, but it also releases the WFs from the 'need' to provide direct cover for the FBs.

The single biggest change to our attack is the moving of the playmaker back into midfield rather than the AM line. IMO this gives the team a much better balance as most teams in a 4231 use their primary playmaker from the AM line which is much easier to disrupt as we did with Silva v Citeh - particularly when they lack a dynamic B2B player to impose upon the midfield. IMO only CFC with Fabregas at CM are not exposed, but unlike us CFC lack any like for like cover, whereas we have an over abundance of cover options.

IMO not only would AA have thrived in this current more direct style as either LWF or CAM, so too would have Bendtner as his weakness was playing back to goal, and Rosicky & even Diaby when they were fit & available.

IMO AW's biggest mistake post the move has been his failure in the summer of 09 to reassess based upon the reasons as to WHY he changed when he looked to discard Denilson in the 3 man midfield. Rather than looking to replace Denilson's role which was part of a compromise, he should have looked as to address the initial issue at that opportunity, rather than to further address the initial compromise decision. The initial compromise didn't work so he looked to fix the fix rather than the original issue, and he's still been trying to do so until this calendar year.

For mind there are a number of similarities between this season & 08/09, and also the Flamini scenario. Firstly Jan'09 saw Aw instigate a change of shape to a 3 man midfield in order to save top4. He moved the playmaker from CM to CAM & bought an attacking player in AA. This Jan he effectively reversed that shift some ineffective 6 years later.
Likewise it was said at the time that AW had failed to replace Flamini's role/capability within the squad until he resigned the same player 5 years later = in many ways we've come full circle.

This is well said. It made me think of something for yesterday's game. It almost seems like Wenger picks his teamsheet of players first then jams them into a formation.

I still just don't understand why he would play Özil on the wing today unless Walcott really isn't match fit. I think its clear we do best, especially when starting Giroud at CF, when we have two players on the wings who are comfortable playing wide (Alexis, Ox, Walcott, Welbeck). This playmaker on the wing usually just hurts us more than it helps.

Also like others said in match thread, Wenger doesn't want to drop Ramsey even though clearly Rosicky is in better form and offers more at the moment especially in the NLD.

I think its another example of Wenger placing his player-centric philosophy first and tactics second. I think he got the right idea for tactics today. Playing like we did away at City was correct. He just didn't select the best XI to implement those tactics optimally because he picked the players first then jammed them into a formation.

Also a few individual factors had a big impact as well. I think Ospina was shaken up physically after his semi-injury and he was a little slow as a result. Kos had a poor mental game. His timing was just off today. He seemed to just be a step behind the game mentally the whole time. Ospina a step physically behind and Kos a step mentally behind is a particularly bad combo for us.

 

[redanddread]

Walcott didn't play because:

(a) he doesn't do enough work defensively, &
(b) he doesn't affect the game enough whilst he's on the pitch.

He's a bit like Podolski in this way in that he's an excellent goal scorer but outside of that he does little else.

Danny was so rusty yesterday and it showed and it definitely impacted our counter attacking performance negatively as he gave away possession too many times and his general decision making was too slow.

IMO, The Ox & Danny are ahead of Theo as they provide more for the team when they're playing:

i. They're better dribblers
ii. They're better defensively
iii. They're physically more robust

However, Theo makes better runs and is a better goalscorer but whereas the others can do stuff on their own, Theo needs someone to set him up most of the time. Theo needs to make more of an impact over the course of a game. When he came on yesterday he had only SIX touches and was at fault for not closing down Benatlib for the cross for Kane's winner.

Özil played so as we would have more control of the ball (a common tactic when playing away from home), however, they cut off the support and supply to Özil and both he and Santi had relatively ineffectual displays.

Would Rosicky have been more effective than Ramsey? Possibly but it's easy to 2nd guess with hindsight.

This was OSpina's 1st derby and the atmosphere was white hot, so maybe that unsettled him a ltad combined with his injury. Koz has been beaten once or twice now for an important header and when he does he looks like he's not even trying. I thought both CB's played ok but Koz should have made it much more difficult for Kane to score the winner, great execution as it was.

It was a high pressure game and a few moments of indecisiveness cost us yesterday.

 

[Crooner]

To be honest, it was Cazorla who let us down yesterday, the guy made 1 tackle and made 0 dribbles. We tend to rely on his footwork in games where we play on the break which allows Giroud to move up and leave his defensive work.

As was mentioned earlier, we lost the battle in midfield. The players didn't turn up except for Coquelin. I think it also goes to show how people spout idiotic logic all the time that a DM would change our fortunes completely.

Yesterday Coquelin did his job, whereas Ramsey and to a much greater extent Cazorla, didn't do theirs. I don't think Özil saw enough of the ball because of that. Most of his touches came in the last 20 mins.

For my own armchair tactician's two cents, I think this game needed Akpom more than anyone else on our bench. Someone with quick feet who could draw a foul and break the lines.

 

[MrBump]

I'd sell Walcott and try to get Reus.

How many years have we waited on Theo and apart from some flashes, he's let us down or been on the bench.
Even Ox is superior in every way bar finishing ATM.
Better work rate
Just as quick, especially with the ball
Technically far better
Stronger

 

[Rex Stone]

Theo's hardly let us down, his goal record has been phenomenal. I'd rather have him than Reus. Theo makes intelligent runs a lot as well, something Ox hasn't mastered yet.

 

[The_Roadrunner]

I didn't find anything written here particularly enlightening or anything we haven't all discussed here before but it should be noted:

<a class="postlink" href="http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/02/08/tottenham-2-1-arsenal/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/02/08/ ... 1-arsenal/</a>" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I liked this bit on Özil though:

"Other than his good reactive finish for Arsenal’s goal he did very little in the match, completing only twenty passes all match (74%).

In my opinion, this was down to him being played on the left side of a midfield four. He cannot influence the game from this position and doesn’t have the pace of a conventional winger.

Also, Giroud isn’t the type of forward to make diagonal runs in behind the centre-back for Özil to find with a pass. Furthermore, this wasn’t Özil’s sort of match because, as I have mentioned, Arsenal were playing a more direct game so Özil couldn’t do what he is best at–unlocking defences with killer through balls."

^ This gets at something I keep noticing. We simply don't need Özil and Cazorla on the pitch at the same time.

Start ONE of Özil and Cazorla as either the 10 or as the most attacking CM in 4-3-3 and then play two pacy attackers on each wing (Alexis-Theo-Ox-Welbeck).

That is really the only set-up that maximizes our team with Giroud as our CF.

With Giroud as CF we play best with direct wingers on both sides. Özil or Santi needs to play in the middle as our most attacking CM or AMC. Starting either Özil or Santi instead of two of Alexis-Theo-Ox-Welbeck only hurts us.

 

[Anzac]

Playing a ball player/playmaker on the flanks is typical possession by numbers philosophy.

More than 2 direct wingers Giroud is at his best with ball players in close support = either as in a 4231 with 3 narrow AMs, or an attacking 4141 with 4 across the AM line. He needs us to play with numbers in the opposition half and final 3rd, and is ineffective and counter productive as soon as he is isolated from his supporting cast as he doesn't really hold up play.

I suspect that Özil is actually better as CM playmaker than Cazorla, but I don't think we have the right CM balance in player options or physicality to enable him to do so.

I also think that Özil made so few pases because he was starved of supply, and that was Pochettino's intent as Özil can not hurt them without the ball.

 

[redanddread]

So now it turns out Arsenal are the No.1 team in the league in scoring from set pieces.

The Özil-Cazorla mix just really hasn't worked as well as we had hoped. Unusual for both to shine. Santi offers a more industrious option at CM and as Anzac said, we don't have the requisite balance in midfield to play Özil there, particularly against stronger teams.

Wenger's been playing a 4th midfielder wide left for a while now, particularly against stronger teams away from home. Saying that, Özil is better equipped to play out wide either of Wilshere (hopeless) or Santi as he's got more pace and can get up and down the flank .

Don't know what anyone else thinks but at present Arsenal can play a variety of different ways, however, like the phrase, we're a jack-of-all trades and master of none.

 

[Anzac]

Theo's hardly let us down, his goal record has been phenomenal. I'd rather have him than Reus. Theo makes intelligent runs a lot as well, something Ox hasn't mastered yet.

IMO about the ONLY attribute that Walcott offers that no one else does, is he makes runs into space ahead of the ball.
His pace is more threat than reality as it's seldom able to be utilised properly. IMO he contributes less to defensive cover than Podolski who is a better goal scorer.

 

[The_Roadrunner]

I suspect that Özil is actually better as CM playmaker than Cazorla, but I don't think we have the right CM balance in player options or physicality to enable him to do so.

If Wilshere can replicate the discipline he has shown for England than I think a Wilshere-Coq pivot with Özil in the 10 in a 4231 is very viable.

 

[Mastadon]

Walcott is the same limited and frustrating player he always has been. Top class at what he does but overall his game is nothing special. I don't get the huge expectations on him its clear what he does and does not offer. Its the typical Abou Diaby effect on long term injured players. Used properly he's lethal but in many games he will contribute little.

 

[beck]

So now it turns out Arsenal are the No.1 team in the league in scoring from set pieces.

The Özil-Cazorla mix just really hasn't worked as well as we had hoped. Unusual for both to shine. Santi offers a more industrious option at CM and as Anzac said, we don't have the requisite balance in midfield to play Özil there, particularly against stronger teams.

Wenger's been playing a 4th midfielder wide left for a while now, particularly against stronger teams away from home. Saying that, Özil is better equipped to play out wide either of Wilshere (hopeless) or Santi as he's got more pace and can get up and down the flank .

Don't know what anyone else thinks but at present Arsenal can play a variety of different ways, however, like the phrase, we're a jack-of-all trades and master of none.

Özil and cazorla on the pitch together
2681 mins
Goals scored 57
Goals against 20
A goal scored every 47 mins
A goal conceded every 134 mins

 

[Mitch]

After their performance this weekend we have to continue with Özil at ACM and Cazorla as the box to box midfielder role against Palace.

 

[The_Roadrunner]

After their performance this weekend we have to continue with Özil at ACM and Cazorla as the box to box midfielder role against Palace.

Agreed. really think we should play:

---------Coq
----Cazorla--Özil
Theo/Alexis ----- Alexis/Welbeck
---------Giroud

 

[BobP]

It's moments like this where you greatly appreciate a player like Vieira.

Was well and truly complete, physical monster, fantastic athlete, superb technician. Our attacks were so brutally effective because he always made the right decision when in possession of the ball, to continue running or to play it on. You see that with Santi, fantastic at navigating his way through traffic, has this springy way of running which results in him eluding his opponents, always happens to be in the right place at the right time, very tight with the ball, rarely miscontrols, if only he was in the body of a 6-7 250 pound male.

Then you have idiots saying the reason we have not been successful since his departure is because we failed to replace him, as if he is some common player who can be found lying about anywhere.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

Özil and cazorla on the pitch together
2681 mins
Goals scored 57
Goals against 20
A goal scored every 47 mins
A goal conceded every 134 mins

These stats mean nothing unless you compare them to when Arsenal play with either one or neither.

 

[Caz19]

It's moments like this where you greatly appreciate a player like Vieira.

Was well and truly complete, physical monster, fantastic athlete, superb technician. Our attacks were so brutally effective because he always made the right decision when in possession of the ball, to continue running or to play it on. You see that with Santi, fantastic at navigating his way through traffic, has this springy way of running which results in him eluding his opponents, always happens to be in the right place at the right time, very tight with the ball, rarely miscontrols, if only he was in the body of a 6-7 250 pound male.

Then you have idiots saying the reason we have not been successful since his departure is because we failed to replace him, as if he is some common player who can be found lying about anywhere.

Why the hell would you want Santi to be a 6'7 250 pound guy? he'd literally lose all his coordination and agility. I like Santi as he is (I guess my name and avatar tells you that), I just hope he can keep up the good form he's been in for the last few months for as long as possible since he has had bad spells in the past (in 2013-14 he was quite average in my opinion)

 

[ArsenesNO1Fan]

Özil and cazorla on the pitch together
2681 mins
Goals scored 57
Goals against 20
A goal scored every 47 mins
A goal conceded every 134 mins

These stats mean nothing unless you compare them to when Arsenal play with either one or neither.

Looking at the table though (this year and last) our average goal difference is much better with them.

 

[bingobob]

It's moments like this where you greatly appreciate a player like Vieira.

Was well and truly complete, physical monster, fantastic athlete, superb technician. Our attacks were so brutally effective because he always made the right decision when in possession of the ball, to continue running or to play it on. You see that with Santi, fantastic at navigating his way through traffic, has this springy way of running which results in him eluding his opponents, always happens to be in the right place at the right time, very tight with the ball, rarely miscontrols, if only he was in the body of a 6-7 250 pound male.

Then you have idiots saying the reason we have not been successful since his departure is because we failed to replace him, as if he is some common player who can be found lying about anywhere.

They are there to be found but their rarity means you pay top dollar or go for a slightly lesser player who has some of the attributes

 

[Rex Stone]

Squawka says no other team in the league has scored more set piece goals than us this year. Finally moving in the right direction! A lot of it is the extra threat Giroud brings now he's back, also Alexis puts in some good corners as well.