Arsenal Tactics Talk

[Brown Gooner]

I've always thought that a 442 would be ideal for us since it provides better defensive cover and let's you hit the opponent on a counter. The 4231 only works with teams like Bayern who have two world class wingers, an excellent CF, a guy like Muller to play behind the CF and two very good midfielders (Bastian and Kroos in the past and now Thiago and Vidal).

The 343 is also a welcome change and I think the players like it too.

If we can have an injury free season then we'll be making some serious noise next year.

Theo, Cazorla and Gibbs must go. I also wanted Coq gone but he's been decent since our formation change. I don't know who we should buy this summer. Chambers(CB) Jack(CM) and Woj(GK) are coming back from loan spells. I'll let the manager and board decide who we need for next season.

 

[say yes]

Very good analysis of our 3421:

https://pmanalytics.wordpress.com/2017/05/28/wengers-3-4-2-1-whats-good-whats-bad-and-whats-to-come/

Usually I'd be very sceptical about such a radical formation change but it suits our players so well. If we manage to keep Sanchez and Özil then sticking with it is a no-brainer. Add a decent CF (Morata would be perfect) to that attack and it looks frightening:

We don't have any quality wide players so the only loser from a permanent formation switch will be at wingback, one of Oxlade/Bellerin (and one of Sead/Monreal) will have to miss out.

Best thing about the formation is that it has managed to get both Alexis and Özil playing in their favoured position (free role behind the striker), and the interplay between them is fantastic.

It also gets the best out of Xhaka/Ramsey, and we've got 6 CBs at the club so no issues there. Switching to a 3 CB defence is arguably a positive in itself as it will provide both Holding and Chambers with the playing time they need to develop.

All in all it's just

 

[nick gould]

I think another reason why this is working is because the players are better drilled on this one, management really turned things around in the last few weeks. You could tell that Welbeck for example was tasked with closing passing angles to their central midfielders. That forced their defenders to play long balls towards the attacking 3.

You know a system works for your players if it seems to work no matter who you bring on. Remember at one time we thought it was Kos holding it together. We have since tried Mustafi and Per and the system continues to hold tight, if anything it looks even stronger without Kos. Xhaka doesn't get cards anymore because there are always 3 players behind him. He impressed me against Chelsea defending that only promising counter attack they had in the first half. It was 5 against our 4 and Xhaka simply shepherded and cut out easy pass angles while waiting for support to arrive.

The only shame is that it took the fans to get really impatient for Wenger to try something new. Complacency has been a thing at our club. Theo Walcott's body language when chasing back to defend is something I will never ever miss.

 

[Batman]

I've always thought that a 442 would be ideal for us since it provides better defensive cover and let's you hit the opponent on a counter. The 4231 only works with teams like Bayern who have two world class wingers, an excellent CF, a guy like Muller to play behind the CF and two very good midfielders (Bastian and Kroos in the past and now Thiago and Vidal).

The 343 is also a welcome change and I think the players like it too.

If we can have an injury free season then we'll be making some serious noise next year.

Theo, Cazorla and Gibbs must go. I also wanted Coq gone but he's been decent since our formation change. I don't know who we should buy this summer. Chambers(CB) Jack(CM) and Woj(GK) are coming back from loan spells. I'll let the manager and board decide who we need for next season.

Not sure why Cazorla is being lumped in with Gibbs and Theo. He has no resale value given his age and the injury that he's coming off of and he's got a contract for next season so he WILL be here. If he can regain fitness he's a sold option off of the bench if we're chasing the game and as a rotational player. He's the least of the dead wood even age and injury considered.

 

[Brown Gooner]

^ If he is injured in the summer transfer window then that's that. If not I can see some Spanish club paying £5m for him.

Either way he should no longer be a regular in the first team and is a squad player at best. Too unreliable to build a midfield around him.

 

[Mark Tobias]

If we are reverting back to the 4 at the back Aaron has heard nothing about it.


"I'm disappointed the season is finishing - I wish there were another 10 or 15 games. That system at Arsenal suited us in the end. It showed with the way we finished the season and winning the FA Cup in that formation."

http://www.tribalfootball.com/artic...um=rss-feed&utm_campaign=Feed-Latest+Articles

 

[MutableEarth]

If we are reverting back to the 4 at the back Aaron has heard nothing about it.


"I'm disappointed the season is finishing - I wish there were another 10 or 15 games. That system at Arsenal suited us in the end. It showed with the way we finished the season and winning the FA Cup in that formation."

http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/Ramsey-tells-wenger-play-me-at-arsenal-like-coleman-plays-me-for-wales-4185834?utm_source=moreover&utm_medium=rss-feed&utm_campaign=Feed-Latest+Articles

Think I read that Wenger himself has intimated that he's likely to keep the 3-4-3 going.

 

[Mark Tobias]

Think I read that Wenger himself has intimated that he's likely to keep the 3-4-3 going.

Would be silly not to. Then again, not having you as the head coach for the youths is ****ing * so... Or did you turn down the offer

Good to have you coming back into the main forums a bit more. Hope we see some more of you in the upcoming season, particularly in match threads. Quite a few of us love your analysis after a good match...

 

[MutableEarth]

Would be silly not to. Then again, not having you as the head coach for the youths is ****ing * so... Or did you turn down the offer

Good to have you coming back into the main forums a bit more. Hope we see some more of you in the upcoming season, particularly in match threads. Quite a few of us love your analysis after a good match...

I think I'd be a bit too avant-garde as a coach. Poor lads would look at me like a crazy man!

I do hope to be posting a bit more and I'm going to start a football/Arsenal centered youtube blog very soon also (at my father's behest!). The difficulty is working in and managing a betting shop is long unsociable hours! I've gone back to part-time so I can work on other things, teaching piano being one.

As a carryover from the Wenger thread, I actually think that in terms of the team itself, the 3-4-3 takes care of a number of flaws in Arsenal's system. I was unsure how 3 at the back would work for a team so predicated on attacking like Arsenal. However, 3-4-3 seems to be the best use of space and personnel. It allows more bodies to deal with a counter while still maintaining a presence in the final third. Özil IMO could be very important to this as his off-the-ball game is miles ahead of everyone else on the team bar Ramsey.

The issue for me is CF. We need someone who has the movement and energy of Danny Welbeck, but is a bit more skillful and a better finisher. The best we could hope for in that regard in terms of a big name (other than Mbappe) is likely to be Romelu Lukaku. He's more secure on the ball than Giroud, is athletically equivalent to Welbeck and is a better goalscorer than both of them. But it's unlikely he will join us. I struggle to see many options outside of Lacazette and the aforementioned Lukaku in terms of big name status and availability. I think we have to be a bit creative with who we bring in if we can't get one of Mbappe, Lukaku or Lacazette. Taking a punt on a South American forward could be an idea but since most of the current crop have been snapped up, it's difficult to see who is left, apart from Velez' Maximiliano Romero (who we nearly signed before he tore his ACL).

We can also look at some younger strikers who are on the verge of a breakout and preemptively bring them in. A lot of people like Dolberg, but I'd like someone a bit faster and more skilful. Having a CF like that is important to our attacking game.

I'd like to see us give Stephy Mavididi a shot during preseason to gauge whether he can make that kind of impact for us. He is very similar to Welbeck in style of play and is technically secure. He would need to bring his scoring record at youth level to the top flight and the danger is that may take a while. It took Afobe a few years before he started putting them away, while Akpom has so far been unable to do it in 80 odd games. Mavididi has a chance to break that mold.

Also, CM is a spot that may require a looking at. Ramsey finished the season strongly, but I don't think his position is completely secure. Bringing in a Naby Keita or someone similar would add a level of dynamism to our midfield in terms of agility, dribbling and speed. Additionally, Maitland-Niles is also not far away from challenging for that spot.

 

[Aevi]

Wenger's take on tactics:

“The system basically is the way you spread your forces on the football field,” the manager told Arsenal Player. “After, it has one basis: basically the position of each player is the house you have to come back to when you have gone somewhere else.

“After, the dynamic, the way the different forces on the pitch interconnect, that depends on the game, on characteristics and on the strength of the player.

“For example, it’s different if you put Gabriel on the right side as opposed to Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain. Of course it becomes a different animation and a different system. With Gabriel, we become more solid defensively. With Oxlade-Chamberlain, you will be more dangerous in the final third.

“It depends on how the system is functioning. The dynamic depends on the individual qualities and characteristics of the players.”

 

[Erlis]

 

[Plutarch]

I agree with people saying the new formation helped our attack, but my favourite thing about it was the way it ended the familiar sight of one hapless Arsenal defender being swamped by three attackers on a breakaway. In particular, it was astounding to watch us play against Man United and for this not to happen once. They've been beating us for a decade like this. I think in the games against Chelsea and Man City it only happened one time in each, again a huge improvement. Actually, it's ridiculous that we never sorted this out a long time ago.

 

[yybecause]

I think I'd be a bit too avant-garde as a coach. Poor lads would look at me like a crazy man!

I do hope to be posting a bit more and I'm going to start a football/Arsenal centered youtube blog very soon also (at my father's behest!). The difficulty is working in and managing a betting shop is long unsociable hours! I've gone back to part-time so I can work on other things, teaching piano being one.

As a carryover from the Wenger thread, I actually think that in terms of the team itself, the 3-4-3 takes care of a number of flaws in Arsenal's system. I was unsure how 3 at the back would work for a team so predicated on attacking like Arsenal. However, 3-4-3 seems to be the best use of space and personnel. It allows more bodies to deal with a counter while still maintaining a presence in the final third. Özil IMO could be very important to this as his off-the-ball game is miles ahead of everyone else on the team bar Ramsey.

The issue for me is CF. We need someone who has the movement and energy of Danny Welbeck, but is a bit more skillful and a better finisher. The best we could hope for in that regard in terms of a big name (other than Mbappe) is likely to be Romelu Lukaku. He's more secure on the ball than Giroud, is athletically equivalent to Welbeck and is a better goalscorer than both of them. But it's unlikely he will join us. I struggle to see many options outside of Lacazette and the aforementioned Lukaku in terms of big name status and availability. I think we have to be a bit creative with who we bring in if we can't get one of Mbappe, Lukaku or Lacazette. Taking a punt on a South American forward could be an idea but since most of the current crop have been snapped up, it's difficult to see who is left, apart from Velez' Maximiliano Romero (who we nearly signed before he tore his ACL).

We can also look at some younger strikers who are on the verge of a breakout and preemptively bring them in. A lot of people like Dolberg, but I'd like someone a bit faster and more skilful. Having a CF like that is important to our attacking game.

I'd like to see us give Stephy Mavididi a shot during preseason to gauge whether he can make that kind of impact for us. He is very similar to Welbeck in style of play and is technically secure. He would need to bring his scoring record at youth level to the top flight and the danger is that may take a while. It took Afobe a few years before he started putting them away, while Akpom has so far been unable to do it in 80 odd games. Mavididi has a chance to break that mold.

Also, CM is a spot that may require a looking at. Ramsey finished the season strongly, but I don't think his position is completely secure. Bringing in a Naby Keita or someone similar would add a level of dynamism to our midfield in terms of agility, dribbling and speed. Additionally, Maitland-Niles is also not far away from challenging for that spot.

I love you as a poster, most of all cause, just like me, you are obsessed with young players. I am really interested in youtube channel you just mentioned, as I had similar ideas that never got the end product, but I gotta do something like that since I live and breath Arsenal, and it qould be a shame not to share that with few people around the globe. If you ever decide to tell us/me more about it; I would love to hear it

 

[MutableEarth]

Wenger's take on tactics:

“The system basically is the way you spread your forces on the football field,” the manager told Arsenal Player. “After, it has one basis: basically the position of each player is the house you have to come back to when you have gone somewhere else.

“After, the dynamic, the way the different forces on the pitch interconnect, that depends on the game, on characteristics and on the strength of the player.

“For example, it’s different if you put Gabriel on the right side as opposed to Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain. Of course it becomes a different animation and a different system. With Gabriel, we become more solid defensively. With Oxlade-Chamberlain, you will be more dangerous in the final third.

“It depends on how the system is functioning. The dynamic depends on the individual qualities and characteristics of the players.”

Strengthens the many claims of Wenger's philosophy thriving when the players have the individual intelligence, will and technical base to be able to prosper as a team. With that understanding, it is then imperative that this tactical, technical and mental training (in addition to maximizing physical potential) must come from a more thorough and multifaceted coaching staff.

And additionally, Wenger's ultimate desire is for the club to have an academy that feeds the first team players consistently, essentially like Barca or Ajax. For this to come to fruition and Arsenal to benefit in terms of honors and a legacy, that training must be thorough at youth level too. That means they must have that tactical acumen and technical base instilled from early. Iwobi is probably the first example, a prototypical Arsenal-style attacker - great off-the-ball movement, seamless technical ability on the ball. No great standout attributes except for his intelligence and ability to use space. Wenger's endgame will probably be a team full of guys from the academy who already have that intelligence, physique and technique - perfect for him to put together a team with the confidence, camaraderie and "mental strength" to beat any team on the planet.

The problem is, we don't really have that right now, although the academy is likely on the verge of producing some real big talents. Nelson, like Iwobi, is a perfect example of an Arsenal-style attacker - perhaps what sets him apart is his enthusiasm and explosiveness. Willock is one example but I have a feeling that the club aren't so high on him because he's too "dribbly", which I hope isn't the case.

I love you as a poster, most of all cause, just like me, you are obsessed with young players. I am really interested in youtube channel you just mentioned, as I had similar ideas that never got the end product, but I gotta do something like that since I live and breath Arsenal, and it qould be a shame not to share that with few people around the globe. If you ever decide to tell us/me more about it; I would love to hear it

It's not necessarily that I'm obsessed with youth, but I like to see growth. It's why I've even willed on guys like Sanogo against my better judgement when they showed signs of potential. I've always wanted Arsenal to be the type of team where a young player with potential can grow into a top player. Like Wenger, would love a team full of guys from the academy fulfilling his philosophy. Just hard when Wenger's management is actually preventing him from blessings. I can hope for the near future that things pick up and hopefully there will be more players coming up into the team with the kind of intelligence needed to boost the team.

I am looking to start those videos soon, so I'll let all you guys know. It won't necessarily be focused on the youth as Arsenal unfortunately don't televise more of our games. The only way would be for me to go to Meadow Park/Emirates to watch the games, which is more difficult for me these days. It'll be mostly focused on Arsenal but first team as well as youth.

I agree with people saying the new formation helped our attack, but my favourite thing about it was the way it ended the familiar sight of one hapless Arsenal defender being swamped by three attackers on a breakaway. In particular, it was astounding to watch us play against Man United and for this not to happen once. They've been beating us for a decade like this. I think in the games against Chelsea and Man City it only happened one time in each, again a huge improvement. Actually, it's ridiculous that we never sorted this out a long time ago.

Yeah, I think Wenger had abandoned 3 at the back because I think he felt it would hamper our attack, but I think his Eureka moment is more to do with the fact that not only has the 3-4-3 not diminished our attack, but it's a far better allocation of players into space in terms of both attack and defense. It's provided us with the most balance we've had as a team in a long time. There are still deficiencies but that's more to do with the profile of certain personnel in our team (Giroud/Welbeck being a glaring one). I still think midfield could do with a tweak - I've always liked Ramsey but I don't have as much belief in him as most of his fans. As an aside, my dad is the opposite - cannot stand Ramsey . The FA Cup final is one of the only times I can remember him being effusive in his praise for Ramsey.

The next stage for this formation is to find a striker with the movement and conviction in the final 3rd, and to establish patterns within the team that will contribute to our attacks, particularly in the midfield. As long as we defend space better than we have in the last 5 years then it's a nice platform to build from.

 

[Brown Gooner]

I'm really excited to see us play with the new formation next season.

Lacazette, Welbeck and Giroud are three different Strikers and all offer something different so it's good to have variety up top. We can also switch to a 442 if need be.
If the injury gods can stay kind on us then we're going to be a serious force this upcoming season.
Exciting times to be a Gooner!

 

[Jack_The_Lad]

I've been concentrating on our tactics for the last few games and have come to the following conclusions:

- in 3-4-3 our positioning while in possession has been very much counter-productive as we tend to have massive holes in the middle of the park, which is usually the prime are for Wenger's teams to have possession
- there is a lot of long-passing (very unwengeresque)
- we tend to occupy the same spaces with more than one player (flanks)
- we may stretch the opposition slightly more effectively than in a 4-2-3-1, but end up having not enough bodies in the middle
- this leads to us having to commit our 2 midfielders further forward, thus leaving the 3 at the back exposed again.

I think with the current bunch of players it'd be best to employ a 4-3-3 in most of the matches, a 4-2-3-1 in some and a 3-4-1-2 in big games.

Put in a DM to cover the defence and start the transition from defence to attack and use two more offensive-minded midfielders in front of him. This would allow us to commit fullbacks as well as (most of the time) two midfielders further forward.

All in all I'd like to see us going as follows:

Against regular opposition:

Cech
Bellerin - CB - CB - Seo
DM
Ramsey/Wilshere - Xhaka
Özil - Lacazette - Alexis

Alternative against regular opposition:

Cech
Bellerin - CB - CB - Seo
CM (not Ramsey) - Xhaka
RW - Özil - Alexis
Lacazette

Against good opposition:

Cech
CB - CB - CB
Bellerin - DM - Xhaka - Seo
Özil
Lacazette - Alexis

 

[progman07]

How do you think Wenger instructs the wing backs? What is his expectation of them?

I seriously don't see the point in us forcing this lineup, we are losing a midfielder, but win nothing. Wenger has been copying the other big teams in the last 10 years (4-1-4-1, then 4-2-3-1, now 5-2-3) but has not really succeeded, I think we should find out what suits this team rather than look around in the league...

 

[Deathstroke]

How do you think Wenger instructs the wing backs?

AW: "Express yourselves..."
WBs: "Boss, this is bullsh-"
AW: "...on the pitch."
WBs (heads drooping): "Awwww..."

 

[scytheavatar]

How do you think Wenger instructs the wing backs? What is his expectation of them?

I seriously don't see the point in us forcing this lineup, we are losing a midfielder, but win nothing. Wenger has been copying the other big teams in the last 10 years (4-1-4-1, then 4-2-3-1, now 5-2-3) but has not really succeeded, I think we should find out what suits this team rather than look around in the league...

Our center backs ARE our midfielders, that's the way Wenger wants us to roll. 3-4-3 is a necessary evolution of the no build up type of football Wenger wants us to play, let's not pretend we were playing better football with 4-2-3-1 last season.

 

[tcahill]

3-4-3 is best against big teams that try and control the play as we do. But it's very vulnerable to counter-attacks. Its the best bet for our first XI, but for cup games we'll struggle.

We don't have the players for a 4-2-3-1, we were far worse in that offensively and defensively last season. We lack a skilled, hardworking winger on the right, and we only have one quality sitting midfielder.