Arsenal Tactics Talk

Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by The_Roadrunner, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. RandyMarsh

    RandyMarsh Established Member

    Even when Sanchez returns, Ramsey/Wilshere/Cazorla shouldn't be anywhere near the wing when Giroud is up top. It's never worked effectively enough and it never will work. There's no balance to it. The only purpose it serves is to congest the middle of the pitch. You can't rely on having one pacey outlet in the team. It's not enough.

    Ox really needs to learn from Theo regarding off the ball movement and runs in behind the defence. Something that is really missing from his game. He's got the pace to cause damage in behind but doesn't look to make those intelligent runs that Theo loves to make.

    Penetration is a real problem for us when Theo isn't playing. While everyone else on the pitch wants to come deep with the ball to their feet, he balances out our attack by always being an option for our playmakers to feed passes to in behind defences. This is so important for us IMO.
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  2. GabeGooner

    GabeGooner Well-Known Member

    Just like last season, we have some midfield players who don't work best with a target man as the focal point of the attack (Özil/Cazorla), and we have some players who have no idea how to play as a unit (Ramsey today).

    It's a truly demoralising problem as it's abundantly clear to many people, yet we know nothing will ever change. Ramsey is the most tactically ill-disciplined player we have in the team, yet he's nearly always prioritised ahead of players better suited to playing in our system. It's these kind of tactical decisions that put us at a severe disadvantage irrespective of who we play, because the team is so disjointed we essentially end up playing with only 8 functioning players.

    Today, Chamberlain showed moments of good link-up with Giroud (which is no surprise as he's the only winger we have who'll run the flank and cross the ball for Giroud to attack). Cazorla always cuts inside from the flanks, as everyone knows, and today, once again, that robbed Özil of his precious space as we ended up with two ACMs. Then add the fact that Ramsey practically operates as a second striker when he's at CM, and it's easy to see why we have 5 players ahead of the ball and a lack of penetration and no width.

    The sad reality is, if you come to play Arsenal at home, it's not a difficult task to keep them away from your goal. Our tactics are so predictable; we get the ball and always play it into the feet of the forward. Whether we're wide or attacking through the middle, if you simply put 3-4 players outside the 18 yard box it's impossible for us to break you down 9/10 times.

    As far as I'm concerned now, I've reached a point where I think: it's not the first time this has happened and it won't be the last. We need a world-class striker and another proper winger who will sit wide and be happy doing so. Clearly Wenger has no concept of tactical balance (or completely disregards it to play his best XI like he's playing FIFA), so the chances that he'll correct these mistakes are almost nil. The only way we can solve this problem is by spending enough money to overcompensate for his lack of tactical nous, then hoping he wins some stuff and Guardiola comes in with enough time to get the best out of Chamberlain, Wilshere and Ramsey before they've lost their youth.
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  3. Gooner4evah

    Gooner4evah Active Member

    This whole mess with too many playmakers is really pissing me off. Right now Ramsey can sit on the bench for a while. Move Santi to CM next to Coq. Cazorla is a lot better at controlling the midfield than Ramsey. Ramsey is more of an all action midfielder than a controller like Cazorla. Ramsey is also very weak under pressure, while Cazorla is very good under pressure and is able to pass the ball out under pressure, thanks to his ambidexterity, first touch and dribbling. He does lack the dynamism and late runs into the box that Ramsey provides though, so we basically lack a late runner into the box without Ramsey, but we control the midfield better thanks to Cazorla.

    As up front, we can't just have 1 player with pace and penetration. Walcott is the best outlet we have, because he makes penetrating runs consistently (he does lack in a lot of other areas). We have a slow targetman striker who never makes any runs in behind the defence, and he's very easy to nullify. Also the opponent can just double up on a different player, because you only need to put one man on Giroud to keep him quiet. We need at least 2 outlets in our team, whether that's 2 pacy wingers or 1 playmaker and 1 winger with a dynamic and fast striker, doesn't really matter. It's all about balance, and the balance is all wrong at the moment. When we play with Giroud, we need 2 real wingers in our team. When we play with Welbeck, we can play Özil on the left with Walcott or Ox on the right, because Welbeck does provide the necessary forward runs.

    Also our left side is the weaker side in attacking sense. Bellerin is easily our best attacking full back by a mile at the moment. He played a role in our goal against Chelsea last week with his late run into the box. Monreal is weak offensively and stays back too much for my liking, while Gibbs does make more forward runs, but lacks the vision and technique to give a good cross or pass, so he's pretty much useless too attacking-wise.
  4. The_Roadrunner

    The_Roadrunner Burned Out

    Well said. Agree with all of it. This image illustrates the problem:

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  5. celestis

    celestis Arsenal-Mania Veteran Moderator

    Agree with what you say about Ramsey Gooner4eva but I disagree entirely about Monreal he's our most balanced wing back and also has been close to our best player in some of our biggest games ie City and United.
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  6. hydrofluoric acid

    hydrofluoric acid Dishonest To His Federation

    I wonder how long it will take this time before players stop passing the ball to Giroud...
  7. Godwin1

    Godwin1 Very well-known

    I wonder had Wilshere been fit what changes we'd have seen to the starting line-up?
  8. hydrofluoric acid

    hydrofluoric acid Dishonest To His Federation

    This is though one... My best guess would be:

    Ox - Özil - Wilshere
    Cazorla - Ramsey

    But I can't dismiss:

    Wilshere - Özil - Ramsey
    Cazorla - Coquelin
    Monreal - Boss - BFG - Ox

    Think Giroud would have score with Wilshere in the team. Wilshere is Giroud best link up play I think.
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  9. GabeGooner

    GabeGooner Well-Known Member

    If you look at it tactically, from a squad perspective we have two weaknesses on the flanks that undermine what our forwards can do.

    If we play Giroud, we need a left-footed winger for the LW – which we don't have. To setup to play for Giroud, we'd need to drop Sánchez at LW and buy a traditional winger, drop Özil as the ACM and play Wilshere (Özil passes to feet/space, Wilshere dribbles though players), then have Chamberlain as the RW (as he's the only winger who crosses the ball). Playing like that is the only way Giroud gets the proper service.

    LW – Wilshere – Chamberlain
    Coquelin – Ramsey​

    If we play Walcott or Welbeck when resting Giroud, we then have to buy another left-footed wide player for the RW, so that we'd have optimal penetration. Right now, that doesn't really work properly for us as we don't have a left-footed inside forward in the team. It kind of works if you use Welbeck or Walcott on the flanks when the other is up front, or maybe use Wilshere at RW if he's available, but you then risk losing squad depth if you're playing your rotation options alongside their counterparts.

    Sánchez – Özil – RW
    Coquelin – Cazorla
    Looking at the flanks in isolation, to make our forwards productive we'd want Sánchez and the new left-footed RW inside forward mixing it up with Walcott/Welbeck (like Barcelona do with Neymar, Suárez and Messi), then we'd want the new traditional LW winger and Chamberlain supplying Giroud (like any other team with a big guy in the middle).

    But, the reality is, it's not that simple, because we also have a weakness in our coach. Wenger doesn't consider tactics at all and simply plays the best XI, so ultimately, whilst Giroud offers us something different, we probably need to sell him to get the best out of the team as a collective. Giroud goes, we play with the same system in all games – like Barcelona do now – and we bring in a world-class forward; we deploy Walcott wide as a ramdeuter, with Sánchez on the LW as an inside forward and then rotate the midfield without any specific tactical requirements.

    Sánchez – Özil/Wilshere – Walcott/Chamberlain
    Coquelin – Cazorla/Ramsey​
  10. Penn_

    Penn_ Established Member

    Cazorla would of dropped to the bench just like last season. Can already see he's been phased out by been asked to play wide which he has been average at best there for ages.
  11. Gooner4evah

    Gooner4evah Active Member

    I agree, but it's more the balance in the whole team that's wrong. There's no width on the left because our LW always cuts inside, leaving a huge area of space on the left open for our LB to run into, but it doesn't always happen. We need a Bellerin on the left too if that's the case, because we really need the width there.
  12. Gooner4evah

    Gooner4evah Active Member

    Just to add to this topic:

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  13. North5

    North5 Here since 2009. Unlike Cornavirus.

    It's all correct what he's saying, unfortunately the problems he highlighted have only got worse since.
  14. RandyMarsh

    RandyMarsh Established Member

    Gary Neville always on point. Depresses you seeing him talk about us like that. Where has our penetration gone man.

    Giroud should be our main source of penetration but he does **** all. All these playmakers around him just wanting the ball to feet all the time makes the whole situation worse when Giroud is playing. He exemplifies all that is wrong with our tactics nowadays. Static, slow, no movement, ball always to feet, scared to shoot, poor finishing..All 'qualities' that have rubbed off on the rest of the team.
  15. Rex Banter

    Rex Banter Got Swerved By Gallas Trusted

    Isn't that exactly what Ramsey does though? Comes from deep and makes runs that stretch the defence. Not going to be seeing that from Mesut or Santi.
  16. Dokaka

    Dokaka AM's resident Hammer

    Basically what everyone has been saying for years now when they talk about "lack of movement off the ball". It's why Ramsey was such a revelation, ostensibly the only midfielder whose natural instinct was to make runs off the ball.

    That clip also shows how much better and comfortable Wilshere is on the ball compared to Ramsey. I reckon he's a level above Ramsey technically, and in theory those two should complement each other quite well.

    Özil on the right, Wilshere and Ramsey in front of Coquelin making runs with Sanchez on the left and Theo up front. Wilshere and Özil style of play would allow Ramsey to make those runs without becoming a massive liability in the process.
  17. Gooner4evah

    Gooner4evah Active Member

    Yes, it's exactly what Ramsey does.
  18. Rex Banter

    Rex Banter Got Swerved By Gallas Trusted

    Don't like it though. Too many playmakers, if the likes of Barca struggled for penetration when they had Iniesta on the wing, christ knows what we'd be like.

    I'd want pace on either flank, playing narrow against us wouldn't be an option and would allow for Ramsey to break into the box between full-back and CB.

    In the video it's clear even Gervinho and his pace opened up gaps in the defence. Özil doesn't do that at all.
  19. GabeGooner

    GabeGooner Well-Known Member

    Ramsey offers that drive we lack – and it is vital to Giroud's ability to impact upon a match – however, it only works when we play teams who like to attack us (so we can counter). It won't work when teams are deep and we have to break them down (Giroud rarely has the space to flick anything on; Ramsey has no space to run into).

    There's also the major fact that Ramsey is nothing more than a runner with a good engine right now. He has an excellent shot, technically, but he lacks accuracy; he is willing to take on shots, but he shoots from all angles (often instead of passing to a player more likely to score); and he has no concept of picking his attacks.

    He's basically the guy who gets in the ring with Mayweather and tries to out-punch him because he has good stamina. People will rate his 'heart' and say that he has a chance to win, but Mayweather knows when to punch and when to wait, and is always going to have enough stamina to do the job, even if he has far less to start with (like Cazorla).
  20. RandyMarsh

    RandyMarsh Established Member

    Seeing as there's a bit of a debate around what our attack should look like atm with some people saying we can't play 3 strikers in our front 3, we need a playmaker on the wing etc. I did a bit of research regarding our attacking line ups last season and the stats behind them.

    Obviously stats like these aren't the whole picture (and i'm not saying this is definitive proof) but it's very interesting to note nonetheless.

    Front 3 included 1 playmaker and 2 pacey players:
    Pl 16/ W 9/ D 4/ L 3 Win Percentage: 56%

    Front 3 included 1 playmaker, 1 pacey player and Giroud at ST
    Pl 12/ W 6/ D 4/ L 2
    Win Percentage: 50% (Booooo)

    Front 3 included 2 direct wingers

    Pl 28/ W 20/ D 3/ L 5 Win Percentage: 71%

    Front 3 included 2 direct wingers and Giroud at ST
    Pl 14/ W 11/ D 1/ L 2 Win Percentage: 78%

    So key things to note is that our win percentage is highest when we play with 2 direct wingers. Also Interesting to see how effective our front 3 was when we played 2 direct wingers (either Alexis and Welbeck or Alexis and Ox) with Giroud at ST.

    So hopefully this makes people think twice when they say we can't play with 3 'strikers' or that we need a playmaker on the wing. I hope Wenger realises this. We're so much more dangerous with pace, width and balance in our team; playing to everyone's strengths. Hard to tell whether we played with 2 direct wingers last season due to injuries to other players or because Wenger thought that was genuinely our best team.. probably the former.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
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