• ! ! ! IMPORTANT MESSAGE ! ! !

    Discussions about police investigations

    In light of recent developments about a player from Premier League being arrested and until there is an official announcement, ALL users should refrain from discussing or speculating about situations around personal off-pitch matters related to any Arsenal player. This is to protect you and the forum.

    Users who disregard this reminder will be issued warnings and their posts will get deleted from public.

Arsenal's Stagnation: What Went Wrong?

Aevi

Hale End FC
Moderator
Here's a thread to look at the big picture of why we're no longer a club competing for the title. The past decade has been a repetitive disappointment where our expectations as fans have not been met. So what went wrong?

The answer I expect most is that we haven't moved on from Wenger. A change of management is a sure way of freshening up a club for better or for worse, and the club has decided over and over to stick with the safe option, Arsène Wenger. Some of us think his tactics are outdated or straight up non-existent and that's not simple to prove, but I find the case of Szczesny sheds some light on the subject. Woj just came out and said that he doesn't feel he developed technically at the club since he was made #1, and noted that the club never prepared for matches with video analysis, only with physical preparation. We've always known that Wenger is one who likes for players to express themselves and not be constrained by loads of instructions, but the lack of tactical prep tailored to each club concerns me. Relying on talent and self-expression is just asking for inconsistent performances and feels naive and even somewhat arrogant. It isn't surprising that players like Xhaka end up struggling after having played integral roles in the far more structured systems of managers like Favre. Also, some of our most impressive performances have come when players were disciplined (see game vs Chelsea this season), so why haven't we continued to play that way? Performances aside, Wenger has underachieved for the past decade and should consider himself fortunate to not have been moved on in an age where most managers aren't even awarded a season to prove themselves (not that I think that is correct either). I generally think he needs to be moved on for someone like Jardim, Silva, or Sarri. We're about to enter a new era of rebuilding, and we should do so with fresh ideas. We tried sticking with Wenger, and that hasn't paid off.

Another issue has been higher up the board, with our c*nt of an owner Stan Kroenke. Wenger wouldn't even be an issue if Kroenke had the ambition to take this club up a level, as he would have been moved on last season as we all knew was best. We suffer from a lack of outside funding as well that City and Chelsea, the current best English teams, get heaps of. Generally we neither gain nor lose from having him, which has resulted in what is exactly our issue: stagnation. We need a more competent and invested owner at this club so that the proper decisions are made, with what is best for the club in mind. If this issue were solved, I reckon everything else would turn for the better.

Looking more specifically, our transfer policy has probably been the most infuriating problem of all. The club was starting to piece together a proper side after bringing in Özil and then Sanchez, and then absolutely f*cking bottled it in the following three summer transfer windows. First, we got that transfer window where we brought in only Petr Cech. This, I am adamant, cost us the league. We cried out for a midfielder, everyone and their mother did, yet the club stuck to their guns and we wound up having Flamini, Arteta, and Chambers play far too many games in midfield. That absolutely * decision slowed us down in our tracks just as we were building up steam. Next window, we failed to properly build yet again, as we brought in an unwanted Perez, inconsistent Mustafi, and Xhaka, who Wenger seemed (and still seems) to have no idea how to properly use. We spurned yet another chance to build on Alexis and Özil and fell out of the CL spots. Özil and Alexis have since not signed extensions, and no replacements were brought in in preparation for their departures. Absolute shambles.

Other problems have been the club's inability to move players on, injury crises, our failure to beat big teams, the lack of player progression, lack of "steel", etc, but I won't ramble on because this is meant to be a discussion. Anyways, what are your thoughts? What went wrong, and what needs to change?
 

Arsenal in Aus

Active Member
1. Most fundamentally, the huge money that flowed into Man City and Chelsea. That allows them to compensate heavily for any poor decisions, injuries, tactical errors etc. It is a major factor.

2. Lack of drive (initiative, courage, interest, whatever you want to call it) from the owner. There have been no significant decisions from him to have an impact on the club raising it's level. There is an element of risk in replacing Wenger for example, but the decision should have been made. It was a greater risk resigning the manager.

3. Wenger's overestimation of his own ability. He may be a great manager, or he may have been a great manager, but he is not capable of using the resources he has to accomplish the task of winning the league. He should have realized that and not sought to renew.

The more minor factors are injuries, poor contract management etc but these are (in my view) mainly manifestations of points 2 and 3 above.
 

scytheavatar

Established Member
We peaked at 2013/2014, that was the season we looked the most likely to win the league. We brought a lot of players in summer of 2014 and rather than improving us we started going backwards. Players like Ramsey and Szczesny started regressing rather than improve year by year. That summer of 2014 was the turning point, and my feeling is that the difference is not in us, it's in the other clubs. Bayern's CL win and Germany's WC win had changed the way football played forever, teams started pressing their opponents more and since then we have never adapted tactically. 3-4-2-1 was a step forwards to the right direction in adapting, but teams nowadays figure out other teams at a frightening pace, and I am not sure what Wenger can do in his next step.
 

Ceballinhos

Cheating on Santi
IMO the worst issue is that we are not improving our players anymore.

Except Monreal & Koscielny, who have we improved in the current squad?

Mustafi looked like a solid CB (although not world class) when he came here. Then after 6 months he became terrible. Sometimes playing like one of the worst CB in the league.

Xhaka who was considered as one of the best midfielder in the german league hasn't been performing for us. He was great last year at the end of the season but now it's like he's getting worse week after week.

Ramsey after his great 2013/14 season has never been able to find his form again or some consistency. He can have a very good game and 2 weeks later play like one of the worst CM in the league.

Cech: we were all expecting a top class keeper. He's not that bad but we all expected better. Once again he hasn't found any consistency since he arrived.

Bellerin who was considered as one of the most exciting prospect at RB is now looking like an average RB. Who will say today that he's one of the biggest prospect in Europe?

Özil was considered as the best CAM in the world before joining us. He was in the ballon d'Or shortlist.
Today nobody is considering him as one of the best CAM in Europe. Maybe not even in the PL.
We all thought when we signed him that Wenger was going to make him a better player. We failed miserably.

Even Coquelin. He was a solid DM when he has started to play. He was very useful even though he had obvious limitations. He was kinda exciting because he could do the dirty job that others couldn't do. Then Wenger tried to make him a B2B and he failed miserably.
Today Coquelin isn't even playing anymore.

This situation is really weird.
What has changed from the era when we developed Adebayor as one of the best striker in the league? When we made Song one of the best B2B in the league? When Cesc was one of the very best CAM in the world? When we could develop a guy like Hleb? When we developped Nasri?

There was a time we could play Wenger ball with the likes of Vela, Merida, Ramsey, Wilshere, Bendtner, we had a U21 squad who could beat WBA during the carling cup playing superbly well.
Today even our best squad can't play that good.

It was a time when every top clubs wanted to buy our players.
Today not anymore. Except Alexis no other player is attracting interest from any top club.

The saddest thing is that it's now Tottenham who are improving their players year after year. Eriksen, Alli, Rose, Walker, Kane, Son, Lloris, their CBs, they're all getting better under Pochettino.
We are the one now who are spending crazy money and who fail to develop our players or create a good squad.
 
Last edited:

Mark Tobias

Mr. Agreeable

There was a time we could play Wenger ball with the likes of Vela, Merida, Ramsey, Wilshere, Bendtner, we had a U21 squad who could beat WBA during the carling cup playing superbly we
ll.
.
The other clubs have learned how to play against us. That coupled with the fact that we play slower and move less off the ball. Its all just so dry and boring. We're predictable, lack creativity, lack desire, lack courage, lack leadership. We basically lack all the key ingredients of winners. We're going to lose the one player in the squad who shows those ingredients even on his bad days.
 

Ceballinhos

Cheating on Santi
The other clubs have learned how to play against us. That coupled with the fact that we play slower and move less off the ball. Its all just so dry and boring. We're predictable, lack creativity, lack desire, lack courage, lack leadership. We basically lack all the key ingredients of winners. We're going to lose the one player in the squad who shows those ingredients even on his bad days.

I'm not that sure tbf.
For instance Watford hasn't done anything special during the last game to beat us.

Nowadays any PL team can outplay us far too easily if they show enough desire. That's really worrying. Not only we are losing games against weaker oppositions (it happens to other team too) but too many times they're just playing better than us. Creating more chances. Pressing better.

I don't even think the PL team are getting better even though they have more money.
I think it is our team who is getting worse year after year. And Wenger/the staff/the board refuse to aknowledge that.

I don't see any room of improvement tbf. We need courage and build from scratch a new team. With a new manager & a new coaching staff.
I don't care if it takes 2 or 3 years to get us in the top 4. At least I'd have some hope. I'd be excited to watch a new team who can improve and get better. But this team is obviously going nowhere IMO.
 

Mark Tobias

Mr. Agreeable
I'm not that sure tbf.
For instance Watford hasn't done anything special during the last game to beat us.

Nowadays any PL team can outplay us far too easily if they show enough desire. That's really worrying. Not only we are losing games against weaker oppositions (it happens to other team too) but too many times they're just playing better than us. Creating more chances. Pressing better.

I don't even think the PL team are getting better even though they have more money.
I think it is our team who is getting worse year after year. And Wenger/the staff/the board refuse to aknowledge that.

I don't see any room of improvement tbf. We need courage and build from scratch a new team. With a new manager & a new coaching staff.
I don't care if it takes 2 or 3 years to get us in the top 4. At least I'd have some hope. I'd be excited to watch a new team who can improve and get better. But this team is obviously going nowhere IMO.
Sorry, let me clarify my point. WHile clubs started to work us out, we've become less incisive and less ruthless on the park. Making us much easier to beat. As you say, Watford didn't do anything special.
 

krackpot

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
IMO the worst issue is that we are not improving our players anymore.


We are the one now who are spending crazy money and who fail to develop our players or create a good squad.
It is also Wengers obsession with his project players. We lost Vieira because of Cesc, and Cesc because of Wilshere. We didnt buy back Cesc because of Özil,Wilshere.

Ramsey should be a bench player, Ox and El-Nenny should have been loaned out...same with Coq, and most others.
 

Mark Tobias

Mr. Agreeable
It is also Wengers obsession with his project players. We lost Vieira because of Cesc, and Cesc because of Wilshere. We didnt buy back Cesc because of Özil,Wilshere.

Ramsey should be a bench player, Ox and El-Nenny should have been loaned out...same with Coq, and most others.
I don;t think that is really true. How can we have lost Cesc for Wilshere. Wilshere spends more than half a season on a treatment table.
 

Kobi

I Know Who You Are
In a nutshell other teams seek to improve, we don't, manager and players are being rewarded (with contracts and pay rises) for years of underacheiving whilst a handful of players actually worth holding on to are allowed to run their contracts down.
There is no ambition and no consequences for failure, on the contrary as I said they are being rewarded.
This team is being run like a soccer school, Ramsey's being playing upfront for the last three years and nothing has been said or done, our other options are so bad he is undroppable.
Walcott hasn't had any serious competition for his place since he first came into the team as a nine year old, although he has actually been so dreadfully bad that he has finally managed to get himself dropped, it wasn't easy though.

The problem is the manager doesn't instill any fear or discipline, through his demeanour, through his words or through his actions.
I have said this once but for me this is a key point, there are no consequences.
This is fine if you have players with pride, professionalism and self motivation (03-04 team for example) however if you have a bunch of soft, pampered, placid individuals being hugely overpaid and undesrevedly rewarded then this is where you end up.

If you can't make them do what is required then you replace them, look at how ruthless Ferguson was, Veron was an unbelievable player but he didn't fit so he sold him, Forlan was a great player as well but he started slowly and Ferguson wasn't prepared to wait around.
Bebe £8.5m and I don't think he played a game, Wenger would still be picking him just for that small possibility that he could say "I told you so" if he came good.
That seems to be the most important thing to him.
 

CurryFlavoured

Established Member
A manager who's living in the past, has old methods and fails to fix the major weaknesses in the team.

Problems 5-6 years ago:

Weak/unbalanced midfield
Leaky, unorganised defence
No top class striker

Since then we've signed Xhaka, Mustafi, Gabriel, Welbeck, Giroud, Chamakh, Perez, Elnenny, Kallstrom, Flamini (!) to cover those holes. Maybe Lacazette will finally fix the striker problem but we'll see.

The only two elite players we've brought in, you can argue were surplus to requirements. Özil has clearly not fit in here, but Sanchez thankfully is the type of player who will score goals for any team. The only case where you can say "there's a clear hole in the team, and we filled it with a good signing" is Petr Cech, and many fans aren't happy with him either.

And I definitely don't want to pin this primarily on player quality. I think that our defenders individually aren't bad but we concede comical goals and still get hammered by good sides. We've invested a lot of money in our midfield but for some reason we look worse than ever in that area.
 

Mark Tobias

Mr. Agreeable
In a nutshell other teams seek to improve, we don't, manager and players are being rewarded (with contracts and pay rises) for years of underacheiving whilst a handful of players actually worth holding on to are allowed to run their contracts down.
There is no ambition and no consequences for failure, on the contrary as I said they are being rewarded.
This team is being run like a soccer school, Ramsey's being playing upfront for the last three years and nothing has been said or done, our other options are so bad he is undroppable.
Walcott hasn't had any serious competition for his place since he first came into the team as a nine year old, although he has actually been so dreadfully bad that he has finally managed to get himself dropped, it wasn't easy though.

The problem is the manager doesn't instill any fear or discipline, through his demeanour, through his words or through his actions.
I have said this once but for me this is a key point, there are no consequences.
This is fine if you have players with pride, professionalism and self motivation (03-04 team for example) however if you have a bunch of soft, pampered, placid individuals being hugely overpaid and undesrevedly rewarded then this is where you end up.

If you can't make them do what is required then you replace them, look at how ruthless Ferguson was, Veron was an unbelievable player but he didn't fit so he sold him, Forlan was a great player as well but he started slowly and Ferguson wasn't prepared to wait around.
Bebe £8.5m and I don't think he played a game, Wenger would still be picking him just for that small possibility that he could say "I told you so" if he came good.
That seems to be the most important thing to him.
Walcott has only been here ten years. Not 20... You're thinking of Jack who has been here since he was 9.
 

Mark Tobias

Mr. Agreeable
A manager who's living in the past, has old methods and fails to fix the major weaknesses in the team.

Problems 5-6 years ago:

Weak/unbalanced midfield
Leaky, unorganised defence
No top class striker

Since then we've signed Xhaka, Mustafi, Gabriel, Welbeck, Giroud, Chamakh, Perez, Elnenny, Kallstrom, Flamini (!) to cover those holes. Maybe Lacazette will finally fix the striker problem but we'll see.

The only two elite players we've brought in, you can argue were surplus to requirements. Özil has clearly not fit in here, but Sanchez thankfully is the type of player who will score goals for any team. The only case where you can say "there's a clear hole in the team, and we filled it with a good signing" is Petr Cech, and many fans aren't happy with him either.

And I definitely don't want to pin this primarily on player quality. I think that our defenders individually aren't bad but we concede comical goals and still get hammered by good sides. We've invested a lot of money in our midfield but for some reason we look worse than ever in that area.
But it isn't for unknown reasons. In the summer when we only signed Cech, several posters claimed "This will set us back years". This is what they meant by that!
 

tap-in

Nothing Wrong With Me
Unfortunately the 2 biggest problems, Kroenke & Wenger go hand in hand and are therefore the hardest factors to change. There were rumours that other board members were looking to bring in a new manager but Kroneke made the decision to give Wenger a new contract. I think Kroneke realises if he brings in a new manager and it doesnt last long, we would be in a position where we have a manager every other season. That is no good for a club unless your City, Utd or Chelsea where you can tell the new manager buy who you want.

I want Wenger out but I want Kroneke out more!
 

Wryer

Well-Known Member
1. Refusal to admit that the football climate has changed. Money talks, and that's the reality. We no longer have the niche in uncovering hidden talents because other clubs have spent money to beat us in that respect. They have used money to not just outbid us, but to enhance their scouting, physio science and tactical science. This stubbornness has caused us even more money wastage through panic buys, bad judgement on players' contracts and players' poor physical conditioning.

2. Tactical. The fact that we switched to 433 and then 352 based on what others have done sums up our approach. We are passive rather than active. Despite what he says, this runs counter to what Wenger says about believing our own strengths. Reality is we have no real strength to speak of and to build on.

Without overly harping on details, I strongly believe these are the two primary factors. All other issues such as contracts, injuries, motivation are secondary, and are a function of the primary problems.
 
Top Bottom