Arsène Wenger: Same Old Class

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Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Terrible journalism that. Sensationalism at its ugliest. Ramsey was fine before the game and felt a slight "niggle" at halftime. A lot of the squad wasn't ready because of the Euros so the bench was poor and it was probably Ramsey's choice to try to keep playing. If players paid attention to every niggle then probably half the team would have to be substituted by the end of every game.
The medical team are highly trained professionals and none of us know what advice was given to Wenger on specific occassions.

People just make stuff up. That's how kangaroo courts work of course :lol:
 

James Bond

Moderation Consultant
Terrible journalism that. Sensationalism at its ugliest. Ramsey was fine before the game and felt a slight "niggle" at halftime. A lot of the squad wasn't ready because of the Euros so the bench was poor and it was probably Ramsey's choice to try to keep playing. If players paid attention to every niggle then probably half the team would have to be substituted by the end of every game.

When a player, who has extensive issue with his hamstrings, expresses issue with said hamstring wouldnt/shouldnt that be taken into account? Ramsey played on and has been out 2 months.

Sanchez limped off vs Zagreb

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...el-holding-hamstring-in-norwich-a6753671.html

AW prior to Norwich away
I will assess that later. It might not be the right time to rest him.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsenal-injury-scare-alexis-sanchez-6903510

Sanchez had a hamstring issue before Norwich, Wenger didnt think it was the right time to rest him, he started, injured it, and missed 2 months.

I'm in no way saying ALL injuries are his fault but I provided show in these two examples "bad luck" with injures were bad management/gambles that he lost.
 
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RUS arsenal

Well-Known Member
I partly agree, but that still doesn't excuse the fact how awfully prepared we were, when the season started.
True, we could've been better prepared. This is the price we paid by trying to snatch bigger fish at the end of the transfer window. Was the gamble worth it? This time it fell through but on the other hand, this is the strategy that brought in Özil...

Something we probably have to do if we prioritize long term gains over short term ones.
 

RUS arsenal

Well-Known Member
When a player has extensive issue with his hamstring expresses issue with his hamstring wouldnt/shouldnt that be taken into account? He played on and has been out 2 months.

Sanchez had a hamstring issue before Norwich, Wenger didnt think it was the right time to rest him, he started, injured it, and missed 2 months.

It was a gamble and he lost the player(s) how you guys try and defend this I dont know. These are examples of how "bad luck" with injures could also/actually be simply bad management.
It is a fine line. I'm sure Wenger consulted the medical staff and Ramsey himself before making the call to give it a go in the beginning of the 2nd half.

As for Alexis. That's a separate case because anyone can tell that he is very willful and wants to play every game no matter what. If Wenger forced him to rest at that time then Sanchez would probably been off in the summer. I'm sure he warned him and gave him stern advice but sometimes some can only learn through experience. Though with Sanchez even that might be useless :lol:
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
When a player, who has extensive issue with his hamstrings, expresses issue with said hamstring wouldnt/shouldnt that be taken into account? Ramsey played on and has been out 2 months.

Sanchez had a hamstring issue before Norwich, Wenger didnt think it was the right time to rest him, he started, injured it, and missed 2 months.

I'm in no way saying ALL injuries are his fault but I provided show in these two examples "bad luck" with injures were bad management/gambles that he lost.
Before the Norwich game when the medical staff sat down with Wenger to discuss the tests and scans on Sanchez, were you present?
 

say yes

Not Trusted
Trusted
Even though I don't think you can blame Arsène for a lot of the injury trouble we face, one of the biggest myths about last season is that it was derailed by injury.

In terms of days lost it's the lowest I can find (and interestingly, days lost to injury have declined pretty much every season since Forsyth joined the club). The period when most of those days took place (~December) was also our best run of form - 7 wins in 8, including vital wins against City and Olympiakos.

Were Leicester lucky not to suffer any injuries to their key players? Of course.

However that doesn't change the fact that we had pretty much our entire squad fit for our poor start to the season, as well as for that abysmal end of season run-in (4 wins in the whole of February/March).

The only injury I think it's fair to claim had a major impact on our season last year was Cazorla. Even then the situation is a bit tenuous given he still played every game until late November, when we were just as awful. Looking at our season as a whole, there's hardly a huge difference in the stats, despite our infamous late season collapse:

Win with Cazorla: 55%
Win without Cazorla: 52%

In fact, I distinctly remember a lot of people on here wanting Cazorla dropped and Ramsey moved to CM before the injury, so unconvincing were our performances. And as much as I love the guy, if anyone is to seriously argue that Arsenal without Cazorla (who'd barely been playing CM 6 months before his injury) are a worse side than Leicester ****ing City, then we've got bigger problems than I thought.

Wish people would stop buying into this injury bullshit- it's just another of those mind-numbing strawmen erected by @Makingtrax so that he can deflect any and all criticism away from Saint Arsène for last season.
 

Mrs Bergkamp

Established Member
Trusted
Terrible journalism that. Sensationalism at its ugliest. Ramsey was fine before the game and felt a slight "niggle". If players paid attention to every niggle then probably half the team would have to be substituted by the end of every game.
RvP was known for refusing to play unless 100% fit or near that. Yet he was a bit of a crock. There are things you can do to reduce certain injuries but a lot if it is bad luck and poorer physiology. RvP gave an interview and was asked who the strongest player was. He said all the African players were strong. Our smallish sample size of yester year backs that up iirc.
 

Jury

Mission Accomplished
Even though I don't think you can blame Arsène for a lot of the injury trouble we face, one of the biggest myths about last season is that it was derailed by injury.

In terms of days lost it's the lowest I can find (and interestingly, days lost to injury have declined pretty much every season since Forsyth joined the club). The period when most of those days took place (~December) was also our best run of form - 7 wins in 8, including vital wins against City and Olympiakos.

Were Leicester lucky not to suffer any injuries to their key players? Of course.

However that doesn't change the fact that we had pretty much our entire squad fit for our poor start to the season, as well as for that abysmal end of season run-in (4 wins in the whole of February/March).

Wish people would stop buying into this injury bullshit- it's just another of those mind-numbing strawmen erected by @Makingtrax so that he can deflect any and all criticism away from Saint Arsène for last season.

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hydrofluoric acid

Many Men Wish Death Upon Me
Of course injuries matter. Having your starting midfield out. Players like Walcott and Ox injured at same time. Ramsey getting injured, Sanchez. Wilshere and Welbeck out for a full season, that is English internationals.

It is weird that people say injuries didn't matter last season. Because our season was the same as if we would have the players who got injured(look at @say yes Cazorla example). What the **** kind of logic is that? What we needed was to have better record than we had to win the league. We were done no favours by losing so many players to injury. Our season was always up and down, we were always trying to find a new balance.

Take a Sanchez for example, he never really got going, the whole season. We needed him to score a hell lot more of goals than he did. That didn't happen because he never really got going, injury in mid of the season. The same with losing starting midfield for 3+ months. The rest of the season went trying to find a new balance in the midfield.
 

James Bond

Moderation Consultant
Before the Norwich game when the medical staff sat down with Wenger to discuss the tests and scans on Sanchez, were you present?

The desperation in defend anything and everything Wenger does. :drool::lol:

In both cases with players with injured hamstrings still being played Wenger has control of who is in the squad/squad rotation and who is subbed and when. Both cases he rolled the dice and lost them for 2 months.
 

Makingtrax

Planes, Trains & Social Media Rants
Yeah OK you're right we had 239 player/weeks of injuries last year, and it didn't affect our results, that's just a f***ing excuse. And when those players came back they didn't struggle for form at all. Wenger made some terrible gambles, without listening to his medical staff.

No bullshit there . . . . wait . . .
 

hydrofluoric acid

Many Men Wish Death Upon Me
It is harder to predict if players are injured or not at half-times. It is not like in your football manager game, that it comes up a yellow bar who say the players is about to get injured.

Wenger is not a doctor. Even the players don't know if they are injured or not.

Injuries are hard to predict.
 

Doom

Well-Known Member
This short article is on injuries from last season.

http://www.thestatszone.com/articles/the-premier-league-physio-room

Two interesting points in it.
  1. UEFA reckons 50 injuries per club a season is the average
  2. We had 42 injuries last season
My statistician days are behind me and I don't the time at the minute to relearn how to do statistical analysis with standard deviations and the like, but on first impressions a club's injury stats seem to vary wildly from season to season.

Arsenal's injury record has went from being the worst to being better than most in just a couple of seasons. Conversely, Chelsea went from having no injuries under Mourinho to a bit more than the expected average the following season.

I don't think a simple model or theory can capture that type of fluctuation.

If I had to guess, I'd say the relevant factors to injuries are:
  • an individual player is more or less injury prone than another, (Abou Diaby v Nacho)
  • certain positions are more injury prone than another, (goalkeeper v central midfielder)
  • clubs (being an aggregate of players) can get more or less luck on how the injuries play out in any one season (Chelsea 2014 v Chelsea 2015)
  • increased games / decreased rest periods = increased risk.
Other factors worth considering but hard to quantify
  • Style of play (short v long ball)
  • In game tactics (defend a 2-0 versus continuing attacking)
  • Opposition mentality (sit deep v "don't like it up 'em")
I think this is a really interesting area but alas it gets only the most superficial of analysis.
 

Doom

Well-Known Member
Another question to consider is, is there a gradation between 100% fit and 100% injured?

If you accept that there is such a gradation, there may be a positive correlation between fitness and injury-proneness.

A manager's job would then be to decide when to field a player in less than perfect condition.

Some say Wenger fielding Ramsey against Liverpool was a mistake because he got injured. But Wenger is also criticised for not playing Kos in that game.

What is an acceptable risk of injury to a player?
 

hydrofluoric acid

Many Men Wish Death Upon Me
This short article is on injuries from last season.

http://www.thestatszone.com/articles/the-premier-league-physio-room

Two interesting points in it.
  1. UEFA reckons 50 injuries per club a season is the average
  2. We had 42 injuries last season
My statistician days are behind me and I don't the time at the minute to relearn how to do statistical analysis with standard deviations and the like, but on first impressions a club's injury stats seem to vary wildly from season to season.

Arsenal's injury record has went from being the worst to being better than most in just a couple of seasons. Conversely, Chelsea went from having no injuries under Mourinho to a bit more than the expected average the following season.

I don't think a simple model or theory can capture that type of fluctuation.

If I had to guess, I'd say the relevant factors to injuries are:
  • an individual player is more or less injury prone than another, (Abou Diaby v Nacho)
  • certain positions are more injury prone than another, (goalkeeper v central midfielder)
  • clubs (being an aggregate of players) can get more or less luck on how the injuries play out in any one season (Chelsea 2014 v Chelsea 2015)
  • increased games / decreased rest periods = increased risk.
Other factors worth considering but hard to quantify
  • Style of play (short v long ball)
  • In game tactics (defend a 2-0 versus continuing attacking)
  • Opposition mentality (sit deep v "don't like it up 'em")
I think this is a really interesting area but alas it gets only the most superficial of analysis.

We still had two full internationals out for almost a full season, last season. We had our starting midfield out for majority of the season and our best player Sanchez never really got going last season getting fit after Copa America, then when he was about to turn it on he got injured.

It may not be a legit excuse for us not winning the league but it still make things harder for us. We play very complicated and difficult football to master. It doesn't help when key players are injured.
 

RUS arsenal

Well-Known Member
Another question to consider is, is there a gradation between 100% fit and 100% injured?

If you accept that there is such a gradation, there may be a positive correlation between fitness and injury-proneness.

A manager's job would then be to decide when to field a player in less than perfect condition.

Some say Wenger fielding Ramsey against Liverpool was a mistake because he got injured. But Wenger is also criticised for not playing Kos in that game.

What is an acceptable risk of injury to a player?
It always has been a catch 22 for Wenger. When we are on a good run some say that he should rotate while others say that you don't mess with the winning team. If Wenger keeps playing the same players and eventually injuries occur then the knives are out that he didn't rotate. If he rotates and results suffer as one would expect, the pitchforks come out that he ruined the momentum by fielding a lesser team. He can never win.

This season our squad is deeper so let's see how it goes.
 

Lollipoppins

AM's Chef de Cuisine
Wenger pretty much revolutionized sports nutrition/training techniques in England after he arrived. He isn't clueless to the fact that his players do suffer injuries more than other Pl clubs but i think it could be a case of him persisting with staff who, may not be the best, either through some misguided loyalty or whatever. But no reason is in isolation. From their high tempo purist playing style, the amt of players who do are in intl first teams, the pitch, players often forced to play high and wide out of positions because we've no back up, to simple bad luck and poor refereeing. Wenger has to be blamed only because the buck stops with him. As a the manager he ultimately has to address and rectify those problem areas wherever they may lie. Which, he hasn't entirely. Its better, and has been getting so, but no where near the calibre of other top flight teams. When Wenger does retire, an entire in-house clearing out needs to happen, from the top go right down.

Except maybe the tea ladies. Tea there is supposedly really nice. :p
 
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