AST Forum With Josh Kroenke (16:30 BST)

El Duderino

99 Problems But A Mitch Ain't One
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The power I have @El Duderino

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@Hunta and the possee arriving at The Emirates for the protest tomorrow:


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Malky

Established Member
Don't dislike Josh as much as Stan, but his son is just his puppet - Josh is going to take some of the heat that should be directed straight at Stan. The more his dad hides away from the fans the more of a spinless leach he becomes.

Praying we see some old WWE type **** today where Josh stands up, in spite of his dad, and takes full control of Arsenal away from Stan - like when Shane " bought " WCW and went against Vince.
Rather Josh as owner than Stan anyway, Josh is the lesser of the two evils.
 

Riou

A-M's Resident Jobber
I have lost track of the amount of videos/tweets I have seen from fans of "smaller" clubs saying...

"Thank God this isn't happening, you have to praise the fans of these clubs for protesting, they deserve all our thanks right now...but let's deduct 50 points from each of the top 6, or relegate them all, kick them out of Europe." etc.


...makes me chuckle, tbh :lol:
 

Macho

Has Trust Issues With Processes
Trusted
I have lost track of the amount of videos/tweets I have seen from fans of "smaller" clubs saying...

"Thank God this isn't happening, you have to praise the fans of these clubs for protesting, they deserve all our thanks right now...but let's deduct 50 points from each of the top 6, or relegate them all, kick them out of Europe." etc.


...makes me chuckle, tbh :lol:
On the subject of punishment:

UEFA president Aleksander Ceferin has said that the 12 ‘founding members’ of the Super League must now “suffer the consequences” of their decision to join the breakaway tournament.

The Super League project collapsed this week when all six Premier League clubs announced that they would no longer be taking part.

Ceferin had previously warned that players who took part in a breakaway Super League could be banned from future continental and international tournaments. He has also refused to rule out banning clubs from the Champions League.

What has been said?​

In an interview with 24UR in Slovenia Ceferin said: “A lot has happened 24 hours after the congress, but I expect more news by Friday.

“I think those who claim to be completely calm in this situation are not telling the truth. The situation is very complicated for them and not for the UEFA, which has 235 out of 247 clubs on its side.

“Indeed, 244. They are all with us. Yesterday I received text messages of support from virtually every club in Europe.

“So, now we expect everyone to realise their mistake and suffer the consequences. We will talk about it next week.”

What about the Champions League?​

It remains to be seen what punishment, if any, UEFA imposes on the 12 clubs who announced their intention to form a breakaway Super League.

Ceferin added that UEFA is still talking to its legal team.

“We will talk about football, but in the meetings, I will decide who sits next to me,” he said. “So, I can put someone a little further away.”

“If these clubs want to play in our competition again, they will have to get close to us and we will have to evaluate what happened, but I don’t want to go into details, as we are still talking to our legal team.

“I would say that the English clubs have made a very good decision and we will take that into account.”

What next for the Super League?​

The Super League project already appears to be in tatters.

Yet, Real Madrid president Florentino Perez, who was the driving force behind the breakaway tournament, remains defiant and told Spanish radio program El Larguero that the Super League is “not dead”.

“We are going to keep working,” he said. “We are looking for ways of getting this done. It would be a shame not to get it done.”

Similarly, Barcelona president Joan Laporta labelled the project as “absolutely necessary”.

Without the support of 8 of the ‘founding members’ — who have withdrawn — as well as AC Milan and Juventus acknowledging the project’s failures, the chances of the proposed Super League coming to fruition now seem next to none.

Where can I find out more?​

For further insight on the implications and football’s next steps after an extraordinary week, Go Deeper with The Athletic’s Matt Slater below.

(Photo: Jakub Porzycki/NurPhoto via Getty Images)

Posted in here since super duper league thread got shut.
 

Macho

Has Trust Issues With Processes
Trusted
Matt Slater from The Athletic take an in-depth look at the fallout below and answers questions from subscribers. (Dunno who he is tbh)

Mods, feel free to move this where you see fit?


We’ve never seen anything quite like it. In the space of two days, a breakaway Super League of 12 teams threatened to rip up European football before collapsing late on Tuesday night as the Premier League’s Big Six withdrew their support.

After Inter Milan and Atletico Madrid also pulled out, Juventus chairman Andrea Agnelli admitted on Wednesday that a Super League could not possibly go ahead, although he remains “convinced of the beauty of that project”.

But what happens now? After a quite extraordinary week, The Athletic’s Matt Slater had his umpteenth cup of coffee and answered your questions on the fallout from the Super League shenanigans…


Realistically, what action will the six Premier League teams face from the FA and/or Premier League? Have they actually broken PL rules? It feels a bit weak if they can sign an agreement such as this, then go back on it and there are no repercussions — Tony F

On Wednesday evening, it was revealed the Premier League were seeking to remove the self-styled Big Six from key sub-committees.

Manchester United executive vice-chairman Ed Woodward, Chelsea chairman Bruce Buck, Arsenal CEO Vinai Venkatesham, Manchester City CEO Ferran Soriano and Liverpool chairman Tom Werner have all been asked to step down from their positions on Premier League committees.

bruce-buck-chelsea


Bruce Buck, chairman of Chelsea, pictured at St Mary’s Stadium (Photo by Julian Finney/Getty Images)
It is believed the Premier League is also looking to remove Woodward and Liverpool executive Tom Werner from its “club broadcast advisory group”.

The 14 other teams are fuming, rightly so. Put yourself in Everton’s shoes. They’re trying to build a £500 million stadium. You might have missed it but Newcastle United are for sale, too (as are half a dozen of the other Premier League clubs, by the way). And somebody has just bought Burnley with a lot of borrowed money. That’s like stretching your budget to buy a nice house but then finding out six months later that the lovely field next door is going to be an abattoir.

The Premier League itself is about to go to market with its broadcasting rights. The Big Six clubs have sat in on meetings about this. They’ve sat in on meetings about the strategic review that was sparked by Project Big Picture (remember that? The last time United, Liverpool et al conspired against the rest). Does this sound like acting in good faith?

I suspect we’re going to hear a lot more about that and legal terms like “tortious interference”. There is a very strong case the directors of these clubs have breached the Premier League’s owners’ and directors’ test. The owners may well have done so, too. But even if they haven’t, they’ve got to work with the rest of the league again. How’s that going to work?

What if this summer’s TV auction disappoints? Who are you going to blame? So I think there will definitely be consequences for individuals.

Whether the Super League clubs had actually done anything — as opposed to saying they would do something — that amounts to a breach of the rules, I’m not so sure. But I suspect there are rival clubs going through the rulebook right now to check.

Something didn’t add up about this week. Many are asking if this was ever going to happen or even if the plan was for it to happen. Did the owners lose anything this week after the noise fades away? — Andrew T

We’re on the same page, Andrew! Did they really mean to hit “send” on those coordinated tweets and press releases on Sunday? OK, yes, some of them clearly did (Real Madrid and their president Florentino Perez have been thinking about this for a decade) but this has gone so spectacularly wrong for several reasons.

First, the plan wasn’t properly thought through (three countries, only seven cities, no mechanism to explain how it wasn’t a closed league, no regulatory approval, no broadcaster, rubbish website, no day two PR plan, no consultation with fans). So did they really mean it?

Second, the interests and agendas of the 12 clubs were not aligned. Real Madrid were doing it because they’re Real, right? La Liga is too small for them and they think the league’s president Javier Tebas is a pain in the backside.



The US-owned teams like Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United wanted to make some money for once, which means things like no relegation, longer TV deals and franchises. The Italians (Inter Milan, AC Milan and Juventus) just wanted something to rescue them from Serie A.

Manchester City and Chelsea were like the kids in the playground who can see a big commotion, know it’s probably bad and they should walk away, but can’t help themselves… what if it’s something amazing? For City, they had the added motive of not wanting to be left behind in UEFA with Qatar-owned Paris Saint-Germain and Qatar-sponsored Bayern Munich.

Barcelona just need something to make their debts go away. And Atletico Madrid were not going to be left out of anything Barca and Real were doing.

Does this sound like a sound basis for ripping up the European sports model?

Matt, what is the best propellant to use to effectively burn my Juve scarf? — Mike M

Sambuca.

As an Arsenal supporter, I’ve found this whole conspiracy disgusting and I’m still feeling really annoyed — even after the club have pulled out and apologised. Can’t believe they almost ruined football for us! I personally feel that all the clubs who were involved should still be punished, although the Super League technically didn’t start in the end — Sunny L

I think you’ve answered your own question, Sunny, with your line about the Super League “technically not starting”. I personally don’t think they went past the point of no return — well, we know they didn’t — or at least nine of them have not, at the time of typing.

I think individuals have breached various “good faith” rules in terms of the committees and associations of which they’re members. They will have heard lots of commercially sensitive information over the last few months while conspiring to form a rival league. That’s pretty outrageous behaviour.

arsenal-supporters


Arsenal fans made their feelings known outside the Emirates Stadium (Photo: Charlotte Wilson/Offside/Offside via Getty Images)
Is it outrageous enough to sanction their clubs, though? I think that will be hard to make stick and I don’t detect any appetite for it from UEFA. Not yet, anyway. I suspect the Premier League will calm down, too, particularly as the rebel clubs have all made such fools of themselves. You’d like to think the Big Six would have the shame to be good citizens for at least a few years now.

Why didn’t UEFA use this as an opportunity to go in a different direction, rather than continuing to appease the “big clubs”, as they ended up doing by passing their reforms? Was it to keep Bayern, Dortmund and PSG onside? If 30 per cent of Champions League broadcast revenue is going to the big clubs, that’s ridiculous — Niraj D

Not just the Germans and PSG, Niraj! They have agreed on the European club competition reforms with the European Club Association (ECA), which represents about 240 clubs. And it has now been backed by UEFA’s congress, which is made up of the 55 European member associations.

Sure, there was plenty of opposition to elements of the plan, particularly those two coefficient-based tickets to the Champions League and the huge increase in the number of games, but they had wide backing for expansion and giving the Swiss model a go.

As for the Champions League broadcast split, well, this isn’t a new row. This has been going on for 20 years or so. Some 30 years ago, the revenue split was 50/50 between participating clubs and UEFA. That’s why the top clubs formed a lobby group called the G14, which ultimately became the ECA as part of a European Commission-backed peace deal.

Since then the split has been about 80/20 in favour of the participating clubs (of both the Champions League and Europa League), with the 20 per cent going to UEFA for its overheads and development work, and solidarity payments to non-participating clubs. This is really compensation for all the domestic leagues agreeing to give UEFA exclusive midweek evening slots, which enables UEFA to bring in more broadcast money. One hand washes the other and all that.

Does 30 per cent of all that “go to the big clubs”? Yeah, I suppose so. Depends how you define “big clubs”. Of the €2.5 billion left after UEFA takes its chunk, €2 billion goes to the Champions League clubs, so I’d say 30 per cent is probably lowballing it.


Sorry, with everything else going on I’ve missed what the actual Champions League reforms are, can you explain, please?! — Laura S

Less than 24 hours after 12 major European clubs announced their intention to form a breakaway competition, UEFA president Aleksander Ceferin calmly confirmed a new format that “retains the principle that domestic performance should be the key to qualification and reconfirms the principles of solidarity right through the game and of open competition”. We knew who he was talking to there, of course.

Ceferin, UEFA, Super League


UEFA president Ceferin wants to push ahead with Champions League reforms (Photo: Matthew Ashton/AMA/Getty Images)
He was talking about the long-mooted Swiss model, which is explained here. There will be an increase from 32 to 36 teams participating in the competition and every club will be guaranteed a minimum of 10 stage games against 10 different opponents, instead of the previous six matches against three teams.

But accommodating four additional games in the autumn will be a challenge for most national leagues, including in England, where the Carabao Cup would be under threat. Three of the four extra Champions League places would, meanwhile, go to clubs based on past performance in Europe, using the UEFA coefficient ranking system.

The top eight teams in the league will qualify automatically for the knockout stages, while the teams placing ninth to 24th will compete in a two-legged play-off to secure a place in the round of 16.

The Europa League and Europa Conference League will follow a similar format, with six matches in the group stages. UEFA stated a possible expansion of both leagues to a total of 36 teams will also be discussed.

As a result of this craziness, do you believe there any implications to the creation of “super” leagues in North America (US-Mex), western Europe (BeNeLiga), or Africa (Pan-African SL)? — Joseph S

The merging of leagues — cross-border leagues, regional leagues, whatever you want to call them — are very much on the table. I wrote about a few of them recently (BeneLiga, African Super League, US/Mex, All-Ireland) and I’m aware that high-level talks have been taking place about Balkan and Atlantic Leagues.

But what is driving this? The same stuff that drove the Super League: fear of missing out, fear of being left behind or crowded out, fear of becoming irrelevant.

One more thing to think about. Did you notice it was the Super League and not the European Super League? This thing was meant to be a blank canvas, a franchise operation to be spun out across the world, all feeding into a FIFA-sanctioned Club World Cup.

What’s the appetite among the UK government to introduce an independent regulator and legislation to prevent something like this from happening again? — Niraj D

Good question! Trying to think how I answer this without sounding like the most embittered, cynical, untrusting hack in the world… I’m struggling. Look, I’ve been reporting on this stuff for about 15 years, I’ve sat in on select committee hearings and debates of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Football, I’ve read these things in manifestos and I’ve interviewed sports ministers about their big plans to reform football and… nothing.

OK, I’m going to give prime minister Boris Johnson, Oliver Dowden at the department for digital, culture, media and sport and Labour leader Keir Starmer credit for quickly spotting this bandwagon, jumping on it, saying all the things that needed to be said, at the right time, to the right people. Well done. Now do something useful.

Is that an independent regulator? Maybe. I know lots of really clever, decent people who think that is the answer. But equally, I know lots who think it isn’t and government should just get out of the way and let the many good, honest, hardworking people in the game do it. We shall see.

To be honest, the political angle to this story was important in stopping the Super League so abruptly but it isn’t so important to what happens next.

Is there any possibility of the “50+1” rule being introduced in the Premier League? If there is, how would the change work? — Donald M.

In the Bundesliga, clubs have to own the majority of their voting rights so a commercial investor cannot own more than a 49 per cent stake. In England, I think it’s very unlikely as I just don’t see how you can do it legally. It would require the most remarkable governmental intervention and I just don’t see how you can justify it. They’re sports clubs, not nuclear power plants! The UK government doesn’t even regulate that fiercely in the nuclear power sector!

All sides (fans, billionaire club owners, media/press) of a Super League or Champions League reforms are flailing against one simple truth: the financials of football are out of control. Who is focusing on necessary root-cause reforms and not an overreaction against the symptom? — John S

I think there’s a lot to unpack here, John, because you’ve got the longstanding, systemic stuff and then you’ve got the more acute issues caused by COVID-19. I actually think everybody is focusing on the latter and lots of people are worried about the former. The problem is nobody agrees on what the biggest problem is, let alone what the solutions are.

Believe it or not, but the devious dozen think a Super League is the answer. They look at the size of their fanbases, their massive social media followings, their passionate supporters in Malaysia and Nigeria and they wonder why they’re not making any money, they’re valued at smaller multiples of their income than Major League Soccer clubs and they have to borrow money at such high-interest rates. It’s not fair!

So they make a lot more money or they all agree to stop spending so much. That was the Super League plan. OK, it was a rubbish plan, in that it was based on ludicrously ambitious assumptions and it was inherently selfish, but they were trying to address the fact that “the financials of football are out of control”.

Now the Super League has come to a close… do you think owners will try again with a different strategy and better imaging and public representation? — James W

YES! Now ask when and how? I don’t know. Watch this space…
 

Riou

A-M's Resident Jobber
On the subject of punishment:

UEFA president Aleksander Ceferin has said that the 12 ‘founding members’ of the Super League must now “suffer the consequences” of their decision to join the breakaway tournament.

The Super League project collapsed this week when all six Premier League clubs announced that they would no longer be taking part.

Ceferin had previously warned that players who took part in a breakaway Super League could be banned from future continental and international tournaments. He has also refused to rule out banning clubs from the Champions League.

What has been said?​

In an interview with 24UR in Slovenia Ceferin said: “A lot has happened 24 hours after the congress, but I expect more news by Friday.

“I think those who claim to be completely calm in this situation are not telling the truth. The situation is very complicated for them and not for the UEFA, which has 235 out of 247 clubs on its side.

“Indeed, 244. They are all with us. Yesterday I received text messages of support from virtually every club in Europe.

“So, now we expect everyone to realise their mistake and suffer the consequences. We will talk about it next week.”

What about the Champions League?​

It remains to be seen what punishment, if any, UEFA imposes on the 12 clubs who announced their intention to form a breakaway Super League.

Ceferin added that UEFA is still talking to its legal team.

“We will talk about football, but in the meetings, I will decide who sits next to me,” he said. “So, I can put someone a little further away.”

“If these clubs want to play in our competition again, they will have to get close to us and we will have to evaluate what happened, but I don’t want to go into details, as we are still talking to our legal team.

“I would say that the English clubs have made a very good decision and we will take that into account.”

What next for the Super League?​

The Super League project already appears to be in tatters.

Yet, Real Madrid president Florentino Perez, who was the driving force behind the breakaway tournament, remains defiant and told Spanish radio program El Larguero that the Super League is “not dead”.

“We are going to keep working,” he said. “We are looking for ways of getting this done. It would be a shame not to get it done.”

Similarly, Barcelona president Joan Laporta labelled the project as “absolutely necessary”.

Without the support of 8 of the ‘founding members’ — who have withdrawn — as well as AC Milan and Juventus acknowledging the project’s failures, the chances of the proposed Super League coming to fruition now seem next to none.

Where can I find out more?​

For further insight on the implications and football’s next steps after an extraordinary week, Go Deeper with The Athletic’s Matt Slater below.

(Photo: Jakub Porzycki/NurPhoto via Getty Images)

Posted in here since super duper league thread got shut.

Everyone involved in elite football now is rich, greedy and power hungry, nobody will get punished because no one wants to lose too much money...how can the bad guys hold other bad guys to account :lol:
 

Riou

A-M's Resident Jobber
Seen plenty of West Ham fans say we should all be docked points/relegated...

Would be interested to find out if they felt the same way in 2007, when their club also broke Premier League rules, by signing Tevez, who pretty much kept them up on his own...were they happy with just a big fine then?

Not saying we shouldn't be punished for this, I don't see my club in the same light regardless anymore, **** em!

But do certain fans want the clubs punished because it's "the right thing", or because it will geatly benefit their own team...lot of holier than thou bullshit going on here from pretty much everywhere, football has been greedy and corrupt LONG before the Super League idea ffs.
 

roz

Fake News Merchant
Seen plenty of West Ham fans say we should all be docked points/relegated...

Would be interested to find out if they felt the same way in 2007, when their club also broke Premier League rules, by signing Tevez, who pretty much kept them up on his own...were they happy with just a big fine then?

Not saying we shouldn't be punished for this, I don't see my club in the same light regardless anymore, **** em!

But do certain fans want the clubs punished because it's "the right thing", or because it will geatly benefit their own team...lot of holier than thou bullshit going on here from pretty much everywhere, football has been greedy and corrupt LONG before the Super League idea ffs.
The pricks.
Got given a brand new stadium for free because or their connections.

Naaaaah not wrong in any way.
 

Rex Banter

Got Swerved By Gallas
Trusted
All sides (fans, billionaire club owners, media/press) of a Super League or Champions League reforms are flailing against one simple truth: the financials of football are out of control. Who is focusing on necessary root-cause reforms and not an overreaction against the symptom? — John S

I think there’s a lot to unpack here, John, because you’ve got the longstanding, systemic stuff and then you’ve got the more acute issues caused by COVID-19. I actually think everybody is focusing on the latter and lots of people are worried about the former. The problem is nobody agrees on what the biggest problem is, let alone what the solutions are.

Believe it or not, but the devious dozen think a Super League is the answer. They look at the size of their fanbases, their massive social media followings, their passionate supporters in Malaysia and Nigeria and they wonder why they’re not making any money, they’re valued at smaller multiples of their income than Major League Soccer clubs and they have to borrow money at such high-interest rates. It’s not fair!

So they make a lot more money or they all agree to stop spending so much. That was the Super League plan. OK, it was a rubbish plan, in that it was based on ludicrously ambitious assumptions and it was inherently selfish, but they were trying to address the fact that “the financials of football are out of control”.

See this is really the heart of the issue. More and more money has to be sunk in by more and more clubs to stay competitive.

So like he says you either make more money or everyone stops spending as much. Try telling a billionaire that there’s a ceiling on potential profits.

That’s why the game has to be regulated now by Government or in a few years time we’ll be here all over again because the problem hasn’t been solved.
 
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