OFFICIAL Ben White

Worse Deal?

  • Ben White for £50m

  • Harry Maguire for £80m


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AbouCuéllar

Wishes to get banned elsewhere
Ball playing CB is the biggest crock of sh1t in football right now. People act like its some sort of game changing thing. center backs 9/10 pass to the nearest player for god sake
No, it's not, in today's football if you want to play well and build from the back it's an absolute must. As I noted this season, even lower table sides press to some extent and complicate your first part of the construction phase / 'salida del balón' from the back, you simply are not going to have success as a top 4 team without players who have some ability and composure against this, which Holding doesn't. There's a reason the first thing Tuchel did when getting into Chelsea was to re-install Rüdiger in the lineup (and Christensen), and why Pep plays always with such quality CBs on the ball. Even Liverpool needs these type of players for their style (van Dijk, Fabinho at CB, Matip, Gomez), and suffers without them (Kabak--and big surprise they've spent big on Konate!).

I recommend people watching the documentary on Netflix about Guardiola and Messi and Barça. There's an illustrative moment that tells us a lot about the recent history of football, where Guardiola has a meeting with Valdés upon being promoted to first team coach, and draws on the chalkboard two CBs wide of the penalty area and almost at the endline. He tells Valdés this is where I want the CBs to be when we are starting out from the back. Valdés thinks it's mad at first but then says, "well, they are going to have to really want the ball, and not be afraid of playing with it," and Guardiola says "exactly." This is where football has gone since Pep made this revolution in football, and there is no place for players of Holding's limitations in top 10 sides, certainly not as starters.
 

MikelHadADream

Well-Known Member
Agree on White, looks elite there.
But, as much as I've been an Emi fan, Leno's key weakness was his height and high ball behavior rather than ball distribution.
Think he's quite solid in that regard, for a keeper, that is.

Yeah, he can bring the ball out of defence as well which I think Arteta makes a big point of.

Agreed on Leno, his passing out of the back is probably better than most keepers considering how much we ask him to do it, but he's no where near elite in that aspect.

From the clips of Onana, the guy looks Ederson esque on the ball. Whether the rest of his game is up to scratch remains to be seen.
 

Troopz

Established Member
@AbouCuéllar Is Rüdiger even that good on the ball? I’m not sure about that tbh.

Defensively he’s very aggressive and solid but on the ball, he’s not great.
 

HairSprayGooners

My brother posted it ⏩
I have no idea what we will do. Last summer we needed a number 10 but didnt sign one and during the winter we needed a LB but didnt sign one.

Different scenarios. But logically, in your head, you can see that we won't be left with Partey, Elneny, Azeez and Willock as options. Especially with Partey going to AFCON and Willock potentially leaving. We will sign a senior CM and Lokonga in my opinion.
 

SingmeasongSong

Right Sometimes
Yeah, he can bring the ball out of defence as well which I think Arteta makes a big point of.

Agreed on Leno, his passing out of the back is probably better than most keepers considering how much we ask him to do it, but he's no where near elite in that aspect.

From the clips of Onana, the guy looks Ederson esque on the ball. Whether the rest of his game is up to scratch remains to be seen.

Wanted to name Ederson here, maybe currently the best in that regard.
 

SingmeasongSong

Right Sometimes
Different scenarios. But logically, in your head, you can see that we won't be left with Partey, Elneny, Azeez and Willock as options. Especially with Partey going to AFCON and Willock potentially leaving. We will sign a senior CM and Lokonga in my opinion.

Last time I checked, AFCON isnt happening.
 

Rasmi

Well-Known Member
No, it's not, in today's football if you want to play well and build from the back it's an absolute must. As I noted this season, even lower table sides press to some extent and complicate your first part of the construction phase / 'salida del balón' from the back, you simply are not going to have success as a top 4 team without players who have some ability and composure against this, which Holding doesn't. There's a reason the first thing Tuchel did when getting into Chelsea was to re-install Rüdiger in the lineup (and Christensen), and why Pep plays always with such quality CBs on the ball. Even Liverpool needs these type of players for their style (van Dijk, Fabinho at CB, Matip, Gomez), and suffers without them (Kabak--and big surprise they've spent big on Konate!).
he installed Rudiger and played with Rudiger and Silva. Thats because Lampard had personal problems with Rudiger and he was brought back because he is better defender than Christianson and Zouma. Its not a much if you have quality midfield. Its just the latest fashion of people just following each other. I take a quality CB who can actually defend than a Ball playing CB who is not as good of a defender. Also how many times have Holding received the ball and lost it as CB. A cb losing the ball due to pressure is not a common thing because they can always boot the ball if needed, but most time they just play it to full back, keeper or CB. Its a position where you have plenty of option to give the ball to a team mate. Liverpool suffered because they lost their best CB and had to play worse ones. The difference between a VVD and Kabak isnt on the ball, but their ability to actually defend
 

AbouCuéllar

Wishes to get banned elsewhere
@AbouCuéllar Is Rüdiger even that good on the ball? I’m not sure about that tbh.

Defensively he’s very aggressive and solid but on the ball, he’s not great.
He's quite decent, and far better than Zouma, who was a fixture under Lampard and preferred to Rüdiger. But yeah, he's the profile of a ball-playing defender, and he's the profile of a more cultured CB that Tuchel recognised the need for despite whatever defensive issues he might have that put him out of favour with Lampard. Take a look at his graph on fbref on the left, it's the profile of a ball-playing defender.


he installed Rudiger and played with Rudiger and Silva. Thats because Lampard had personal problems with Rudiger and he was brought back because he is better defender than Christianson and Zouma. Its not a much if you have quality midfield. Its just the latest fashion of people just following each other. I take a quality CB who can actually defend than a Ball playing CB who is not as good of a defender. Also how many times have Holding received the ball and lost it as CB. A cb losing the ball due to pressure is not a common thing because they can always boot the ball if needed, but most time they just play it to full back, keeper or CB. Its a position where you have plenty of option to give the ball to a team mate. Liverpool suffered because they lost their best CB and had to play worse ones. The difference between a VVD and Kabak isnt on the ball, but their ability to actually defend

It has nothing to do with being a fashion (this is the line people in England who don't have any real analysis or understanding of the modern game to offer at all always repeat), it is the way football has gone. Pressing is higher, ball retention in the initial construction phase in one's own half is much more difficult and thus requires different types of players and ability (especially for top clubs who need to bring the initiative in most games). It's nothing to do with "fashion" and all to do with the requirements and realities of modern day football.
 

Rasmi

Well-Known Member
He's quite decent, and far better than Zouma, who was a fixture under Lampard and preferred to Rüdiger. But yeah, he's the profile of a ball-playing defender, and he's the profile of a more cultured CB that Tuchel recognised the need for despite whatever defensive issues he might have that put him out of favour with Lampard. Take a look at his graph on fbref on the left, it's the profile of a ball-playing defender.

Its clear he had a falling out with Lampard. It wasnt footballing reason. same with Arteta with Özil where he went from playing to not even making the bench and not existing
 

Troopz

Established Member
He's quite decent, and far better than Zouma, who was a fixture under Lampard and preferred to Rüdiger. But yeah, he's the profile of a ball-playing defender, and he's the profile of a more cultured CB that Tuchel recognised the need for despite whatever defensive issues he might have that put him out of favour with Lampard. Take a look at his graph on fbref on the left, it's the profile of a ball-playing defender.


Those stats don’t really show a true reflection on what sort of passes he’s making tbh. Also, he has that luxury with Kante and Jorginho playing ahead of him.

Not a fan of Luiz but his passing is excellent and his stats don’t look too good:


Anyways, whenever I watch Chelsea, Rudiger seems better at being a ball carrier as opposed to be great with his passing.
 

AbouCuéllar

Wishes to get banned elsewhere
Anyways, whenever I watch Chelsea, Rudiger seems better at being a ball carrier as opposed to be great with his passing.
Ball-carrying is also an important part of being a ball-playing defender. Anyways, point being, there was a reason Zouma went from being 2nd choice under Lampard to 4th choice under Tuchel.
 

TimoJens

Formerly known as highbury_2006
Nothing can happen in the next month anyway with him at the European Championships.

Yes his team can sort out the bag, the rest gets done when the player is free.

He is in London right now. We can get this done very quickly if thats what we want.
 

Finesse

Well-Known Member
Trusted ✔️
Ball playing CB is the biggest crock of sh1t in football right now. People act like its some sort of game changing thing. center backs 9/10 pass to the nearest player for god sake

The reverse is true. Of course centre backs 9/10 pass to the nearest player , but that's beyond the point. It is not also about passing beyond the nearest player. It is more about understanding build up play , recycling the ball , beating the high press and giving the forward players the right balls to thrive. It is a tactical issue and a complete defender in the top level should possess this ability. A few years ago the traditional DMs also phased into deep lying playmaking, link up and tempo control. The big , tall , powerful tackling DMs vanished. This is football!

The game has changed. Every team is drilled to press high. Strikers and wingers today are expected to be the first defenders from the front. Goal keepers have grown into the last defenders playing from the back. All is aimed at drawing out the opposition , moving their shape around and creating holes to hurt them. How many times have we scored recently from this? It means defenders have to adapt and add more to their game. The best CBs in every division in the modern game today are not just your 9/10 passer to the nearest player I am afraid. We have transitioned from a defence absolutely rubbish at playing from the back under Emery ( threw the towel at one stage) , to one able to beat the press and score directly from it. It was a process and it came with its errors, but we are not good at it and can even get better. We need more players adept at it and glad we are having Saliba back and hopefully a new face to compliment the others.
 

Rasmi

Well-Known Member
The reverse is true. Of course centre backs 9/10 pass to the nearest player , but that's beyond the point. It is not also about passing beyond the nearest player. It is more about understanding build up play , recycling the ball , beating the high press and giving the forward players the right balls to thrive. It is a tactical issue and a complete defender in the top level should possess this ability. A few years ago the traditional DMs also phased into deep lying playmaking, link up and tempo control. The big , tall , powerful tackling DMs vanished. This is football!

The game has changed. Every team is drilled to press high. Strikers and wingers today are expected to be the first defenders from the front. Goal keepers have grown into the last defenders playing from the back. All is aimed at drawing out the opposition , moving their shape around and creating holes to hurt them. How many times have we scored recently from this? It means defenders have to adapt and add more to their game. The best CBs in every division in the modern game today are not just your 9/10 passer to the nearest player I am afraid. We have transitioned from a defence absolutely rubbish at playing from the back under Emery ( threw the towel at one stage) , to one able to beat the press and score directly from it. It was a process and it came with its errors, but we are not good at it and can even get better. We need more players adept at it and glad we are having Saliba back and hopefully a new face to compliment the others.
Football and basketball are the two sport I follow closest and too many analytics and nerds have taken over the sport trying to dictate every aspect of these sports. But there are certain things that you cant change. The suns swept the nuggets in nba with Paul and Booker hitting mid range shots. Same shots analytics been trying to move away from. Giannis and Embiid brought back the big man which they tried to move from. But it turns out you cant defend against it.

With football we have same people trying to move away from certain things, but you cant put price ona CB who is great in the air and what he brings to defence and attack. you cant put price on really quick wide player who can beat players because he will disrupt any defence you set up and once he beats his man he opens you up. Arteta is sadly part of the new generation of coaches who think he can pre plan every step of a football match. But he was clearly outperformed by a manager who has the opposite approach in Ole who believes in simplicity and football is about putting your best attackers in best position and just defend. As long as a CB is quick, reads the game well and good in the air he is good.

As far as big tall DM being redundant means in todays football Petit would not fit in. But someone like Guendouzzi who the analytic love would be great. This is some bullsh1t and nothing more than some nerds trying to calculate everything in football.
 

isop

Well-Known Member
he installed Rudiger and played with Rudiger and Silva. Thats because Lampard had personal problems with Rudiger and he was brought back because he is better defender than Christianson and Zouma. Its not a much if you have quality midfield. Its just the latest fashion of people just following each other. I take a quality CB who can actually defend than a Ball playing CB who is not as good of a defender. Also how many times have Holding received the ball and lost it as CB. A cb losing the ball due to pressure is not a common thing because they can always boot the ball if needed, but most time they just play it to full back, keeper or CB. Its a position where you have plenty of option to give the ball to a team mate. Liverpool suffered because they lost their best CB and had to play worse ones. The difference between a VVD and Kabak isnt on the ball, but their ability to actually defend
papa.jpg


Sokratis was unfairly ostracised imo, he was our best pure defender, tackling, positioning, strength, timing, fighting spirit etc.. I understand that is it good to have ball playing capabilities as a CB, but you also need players who can just defend, and love defending, old school, like him. Even against Olympiakos in the Europa, he still showed his quality against us.

With Ben White as mentioned I'm more interested in seeing him more in DM/CM. I like him as a CB, but he looked good in midfield too from the odd game I saw him there last season.
 
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Blood on the Tracks

Well-Known Member
Trusted ✔️
I'm not opposed to signing White in principle. I think he's a good CB who's likely to have room to improve fairly significantly.

In some ways it's not about how good a player he is though. It's about whether money is being spent in a way that will maximise improvement on field. For me Gabriel, Holding, Mari, Saliba and one of Mavro or Chambers are closer in quality as a unit to top 4 level than we are at RB or CM currently.

If these positions are addressed and White is a bit of an icing on the cake signing I'm more than happy. If full back or CM positions will be neglected to spend the £40-50m it'll take to sign White I won't be pleased.

I suppose we'll be able to make a better judgement at the end of the window.
 
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