Cobra Kai Havertz: Kai The Redeemer

[SA Gunner]

He's showing the consistency we want but its too early to put him in the same bracket as Haaland, Isak, etc. This, despite the great form.

He is showing the potential we want to see though, so as long as he continues this he will be joining more and more conversations.

So far so good though, he's keeping his naysayers consistently quiet and you cant ask for much more right now.

 

[Bloodbather]

Isn't that largely that football has moved to being more systematic? Football was more end to end in the 90s/00s, with 4-4-2 being the formation of choice and less parking the bus with much more time and space. These days most teams drop into 3 lines of 10 players with no time or space on the ball. Those also tactical fouls so when the possession side lose the ball they make sure there's no counter attack by taking out the player in transition. Also playing as a lone 9 is far harder than playing in a 2. You have to hold up the ball by yourself, while in a 2 you can pass it back and forth. These days pressing and tracking back is a vital part of all forwards, while in the past forwards attacked and midfielders and defenders won the ball back. Also many of those players would have been wide forwards or attacking midfielders today

That last point is commonly overlooked by the people lamenting the lack of great strikers nowadays. In the 90s, dual-forward set ups were the common formations. 4-4-2 or 3-5-2. A lot of the heavy lifting for your attack fell on your forwards, so they had to be strong in a lot of areas attacking wise while doing little to nothing defensively or with regard to dropping deep to contribute to build up. Wingers were midfielders then, not forwards. Beckham, Giggs, McManaman, etc.

Now single forward formations are more common and the wing forwards are ubiquitous. You didn't really have guys like Salah, Vini Jr back then. So if you just look at #9s in that comparison the current field is pretty unimpressive. But you really need to be including wing forwards in that comparison. Someone like Henry would've been a wing forward today, not a #9.

 

[Mitch]

Isn't that largely that football has moved to being more systematic? Football was more end to end in the 90s/00s, with 4-4-2 being the formation of choice and less parking the bus with much more time and space. These days most teams drop into 3 lines of 10 players with no time or space on the ball. Those also tactical fouls so when the possession side lose the ball they make sure there's no counter attack by taking out the player in transition. Also playing as a lone 9 is far harder than playing in a 2. You have to hold up the ball by yourself, while in a 2 you can pass it back and forth. These days pressing and tracking back is a vital part of all forwards, while in the past forwards attacked and midfielders and defenders won the ball back. Also many of those players would have been wide forwards or attacking midfielders today

All true and I agree.

Roy keane gave an interview several years ago stating along the lines how football changed and that back in the day he and teammates wouldn't expect Cantona to track, "you go do your thing".

 

[MutableEarth]

Haven't posted in the player threads much but I've been very impressed with Kai so far this season. He's really grown as a personality in this team and actually looks like an effective CF so far this season. There'll be bigger tests but so far I'm pleased with his application.

 

[Mitch]

I wouldn't, those strikers at their best showed more. Benteke at Villa was elite and sought after by elite clubs back then.

Yh, the generation before was even more stacked. Crazy times lol.

Benteke and Lukaku were typical target men that were lacking technically.

Giroud, although made some of the most impressive assists I've seen by an Arsenal player, was such frustrating player. Giroud had good off the ball movement and due to this made himself so many chances, unfortunately he wasted so many. Add to that Giroud's constant diving and constantly winning headers to head it straight to the opposition added to the frustration. I still have PTSD over Giroud's performance against Monaco.

Havertz in terms of technical ability and football IQ is a level above these guys.

Mod edit: Removed unnecessarily offensive language.

 

[Buhry]

Kai is really growing on me. If he can get a bit more clinical he'll be a very good CF tbh. I mean he has been for the last 5-6 months really but for us to win major things with him starting I still think he needs to take it up a notch. But honestly he seems like the type that could do it. The finish against brighton was very good and some of his runs were very good, both to free himself for the 1v1 and to set up saka that one time. If he'd scored the 1v1 that would have been a very impressive goal tbh (based on the way he created the chance for himself).

 

[outlawz]

You're right, I'm one of them. I was just sitting out of curiosity and looking at his stats, what an eye-opener, it feels like I'm awake now.

His contributions per game ratio as a striker at Arsenal is far better than his contributions per game ratio as a striker at Chelsea. Check those stats and revert. You will find he's a much more productive striker at Arsenal.

 

[TH14shahriar]

His contributions per game ratio as a striker at Arsenal is far better than his contributions per game ratio as a striker at Chelsea. Check those stats and revert. You will find he's a much more productive striker at Arsenal.

I’m not denying that, but what’s the reason? Is it that he’s playing in a better team rather than it being Arteta who has transformed him as a player? And we’re not talking about a significant difference here really.

 

[fute]

I’m not denying that, but what’s the reason? Is it that he’s playing in a better team rather than it being Arteta who has transformed him as a player? And we’re not talking about a significant difference here really.

Playing on a better team and in a stable environment.

He has 100% backing from the manager and belief from his teammates. Like Raya, he has earned the respect of his teammates through his play. It has helped them win.

 

[db10_therza]

I’m not denying that, but what’s the reason? Is it that he’s playing in a better team rather than it being Arteta who has transformed him as a player? And we’re not talking about a significant difference here really.

It’s all the same thing isn’t it really? Havertz is undoubtedly playing in a better team, and in order to do that effectively he had to be taught how to play in a jdp kind of system - understanding spaces differently and patterns of play etc, so in that sense Arteta has “improved him”.

As for the numbers, he must be close to pushing a goal contribution game at CF for us, I’m pretty sure that would be way ahead of what he was doing at Chelsea.

 

[outlawz]

I’m not denying that, but what’s the reason? Is it that he’s playing in a better team rather than it being Arteta who has transformed him as a player? And we’re not talking about a significant difference here really.

You're asking why people are giving Arteta credit for transforming Havertz, and a large part of that is because Havertz is just shy of 1 goal contribution per game at CF. 15 g/a in 18 as a striker at Arsenal.

For Chelsea in the season before, he had 8 g/a in 30 games.

A little bit of research goes a long way!

 

[avalonhse]

It’s all the same thing isn’t it really? Havertz is undoubtedly playing in a better team, and in order to do that effectively he had to be taught how to play in a jdp kind of system - understanding spaces differently and patterns of play etc, so in that sense Arteta has “improved him”.

Unpopular opinion here:
This Arsenal team has achieved nothing in the last 2 years: no FA, PL or Euro title. It is too soon to say it is a better team than Chelsea 2020-2021 who at least won UEFA CL. We can say those lines when TeTa team win something, as credit given when it’s due.

 

[TH14shahriar]

You're asking why people are giving Arteta credit for transforming Havertz, and a large part of that is because Havertz is just shy of 1 goal contribution per game at CF. 15 g/a in 18 as a striker at Arsenal.

For Chelsea in the season before, he had 8 g/a in 30 games.

A little bit of research goes a long way!

Nothing new here.

I'm saying he's playing in a better team than that dysfunctional Chelsea team. You're giving Arteta too much credit, "transforming Havertz", give me a break buddy.

 

[TH14shahriar]

Playing on a better team and in a stable environment.

He has 100% backing from the manager and belief from his teammates. Like Raya, he has earned the respect of his teammates through his play. It has helped them win.

This is more true than people in the Arteta cult saying he's transformed Havertz, come on.

 

[TH14shahriar]

It’s all the same thing isn’t it really? Havertz is undoubtedly playing in a better team, and in order to do that effectively he had to be taught how to play in a jdp kind of system - understanding spaces differently and patterns of play etc, so in that sense Arteta has “improved him”.

As for the numbers, he must be close to pushing a goal contribution game at CF for us, I’m pretty sure that would be way ahead of what he was doing at Chelsea.

Fair enough, but I'm not buying that he's been transformed as a player, I see what I see on the pitch and he's basically the same player with more confidence and a purpose as a player, guess the purpose, like what you do on the pitch aa you say is giving credit to Arteta.

 

[db10_therza]

Fair enough, but I'm not buying that he's been transformed as a player, I see what I see on the pitch and he's basically the same player with more confidence and a purpose as a player, guess the purpose, like what you do on the pitch aa you say is giving credit to Arteta.

Yeah I mean he hasn’t been “transformed” - he’s a better (more productive) version of the same player he was before. Same strengths, same weaknesses, just better overall.

 

[SA Gunner]

@Farzad what you saying?

 

[Farzad]

@Farzad what you saying?

Isak, Toney, Watkins, Wilson, solanke, Nunez, Vardy, Trossard, Jesus, Mateta, Fulkrug, Jackson, and Antonio if he plays striker and a number of winger/strikers and false number 9s. Kai went from a poor Pl striker to an average one at best. Thanks to Mik’s reclamation project we lost the league, but Kai feels better about himself so all good

Ps oh yeah Haaland lol

And in Europe tons of guys better than him. We have easily worst striker of any elite team

 

[outlawz]

Nothing new here.

I'm saying he's playing in a better team than that dysfunctional Chelsea team. You're giving Arteta too much credit, "transforming Havertz", give me a break buddy.

Now you are, initially you were scratching your head saying I don't get it.

Arteta has helped transform his confidence which is why people are giving Mikel any credit. Havertz is playing with a level of aggression and freedom that he didn't enjoy in his final season at Chelsea and his first few months at Arsenal. He's still the same player but is now playing with far greater confidence in better conditions, ergo his performances have transformed which is evidenced by his sharp improvement in goal contribution per game ratio (as a striker).

I don't think anyone said he's playing in a way that he's never played before. Most people are saying he's playing more like the player he was at Leverkusen where he was rated so highly.

 

[fute]

This is more true than people in the Arteta cult saying he's transformed Havertz, come on.

Arteta doesn't deserve that much credit.

It takes a lot for Arteta to change his mind when it differs from his vision of a player and scheme. We see it with the LB position. We see it taking place in the midfield.

There are many skeptics about Kai as a 9, past and present. Ironically, the biggest of them all was Arteta. He was trying to shoehorn him into the 8 for half a season where everybody else could see it wasn't working. The times he did score, were in the box.

Thank goodness for the FA Cup game against Liverpool. We lost and Arteta didn't care about that game. But it at least opened his eyes to see the chances that were created and Kai was up top. To that extent, Arteta deserves credit in relenting and eventually putting Kai up top for the betterment of the team. And it paid off. We lost 1 PL game in all of 2024. That 1 game? Against Villa where Arteta decided to move him back to 8. 3 points we lost. We lost the title to City by 2.