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Cobra Kai Havertz: Kai The Redeemer

lomekian

Essays are my thing
Betwetters being over-dramatic as usual. He was pretty good for large parts of the game. Not his fault Anthony Taylor was cool with him getting kicked, chopped, manhandled and tripped and refused to give him a damn thing. A non manc aligned ref gives him those free kicks, and suddenly its a great CF performance providing a platform for the team. He did a number of good things in the game despite being out on his feet in the second half and with bugger all support.
 

El Duderino

That's, like, your opinion, man.
Moderator
Did ok yesterday.

He's what we've got until we manage to get a real killer upfront and that is a hard ask given the market.
 

Trilly

All views posted are NOT my own

Country: England
What's your definition of a bad game then?

The guy lost the ball constantly, couldn't hold at any point, couldn't win duels, looked like a ***** trying to win a free kick, didn't create anything, couldn't dribble, couldn't pass. All he did was 2 runs with the ball which he eventually lost, that's the summary of his game.

That's an awful game which should result in him being on the bench next game, but I guess we understand our options better.
He’s an average player who has had the absolute most done for him in terms of being given time to succeed and the system making the most of his strengths.

His fans can have the numbers and the stats can’t be argued with but I think there are like 5-10 strikers in the league who can match/better his output here.
 

Macho

Intimidated by Arteta's Wardrobe.

Country: England
His fans can have the numbers and the stats can’t be argued with but I think there are like 5-10 strikers in the league who can match/better his output here.

You'd just be told his all round game makes him worth it and difficult to replace.

He has the best PR in the game hands down, to the point where you "simply do not know ball" if you aren't ecstatic with what he delivers.

We literally just have to wait until cut throat Arteta eventually decides to cut the bullshit Ramsdale style.
 

blaze_of_glory

Moderator
Moderator

Country: Canada
What's your definition of a bad game then?

The guy lost the ball constantly, couldn't hold at any point, couldn't win duels, looked like a ***** trying to win a free kick, didn't create anything, couldn't dribble, couldn't pass. All he did was 2 runs with the ball which he eventually lost, that's the summary of his game.

That's an awful game which should result in him being on the bench next game, but I guess we understand our options better.
I didn't say he didn't have a bad game, I said his bad game wasn't that bad. He's still effective and like I said would have been involved in a winning goal under correct circumstances.

Also just stupid people jumping all over him after he's done so well for such a long time. It's one game.
 

blaze_of_glory

Moderator
Moderator

Country: Canada
He’s an average player who has had the absolute most done for him in terms of being given time to succeed and the system making the most of his strengths.

His fans can have the numbers and the stats can’t be argued with but I think there are like 5-10 strikers in the league who can match/better his output here.
You and I both know that if any of those players were here the same people sour about Havertz would be sour about them. This place will not be happy with a striker until we get RvP mk. 2.

Havertz is fully bought into the system and he does so much more than score goals (which he also does very regularly). A lot of people, my self included, wrote him off early and 90% of the criticism he gets on here is people mad they turned out wrong. This is clear from the begrudging "he did pretty well today I suppose' posts that pop up after most games and then the gleeful "see, I knew this guy sucks” posts that we get after one subpar game.
 

Farzad

Whistleblower rights activist & PhD in Karenology

Country: USA

Player:Havertz
I’m convinced more than ever I could actually do a better job than this chap at not slowing down our attack and making a simple decision.

He is a player who is actually worse than his statistics because he destroys the build up and break outs. He did it again against Lfc blowing a basic cutback in a 4 on 2 break. 2 defenders 3 targets. He hit right at the first defender as if he was trying to pass to him. He just jogged, continued his run and got a perfect feed from Havertz.
 

RunTheTrap

Says Aesthetics Merchants, but really means Trilly
You'd just be told his all round game makes him worth it and difficult to replace.

He has the best PR in the game hands down, to the point where you "simply do not know ball" if you aren't ecstatic with what he delivers.

We literally just have to wait until cut throat Arteta eventually decides to cut the bullshit Ramsdale style.
Havertz's all-round game is nothing special though. People act like he's the second coming of Benzema. The number of fans who claim Havertz is “the most complete striker in the league” astounds me. He's a very good player in this system, but let's not act like he's an unicorn of a player. Jackson, Watkins, Isak, Welbeck and Wood can all do a decent Havertz impression and score too. The issue is that the money we've allocated to bring Havertz here, I need him to be elite to justify the cost. £65 million and £280k to be on the same level as Chris Wood is not what I signed up for.
 

fute

Well-Known Member

Country: USA
The further away from the box you move him, the less effective he is, especially on the ball.

Good durability, plays defense.

His performance at CF last year was the catalyst for our improvement in the 2nd half of the season last year.

You can win a trophy with him. Chelsea did it.

He is the least of our worries, right now.
 

Rasmi

Calls It Like It Isn't

Country: England
The further away from the box you move him, the less effective he is, especially on the ball.

Good durability, plays defense.

His performance at CF last year was the catalyst for our improvement in the 2nd half of the season last year.

You can win a trophy with him. Chelsea did it.

He is the least of our worries, right now.
Chelsea won the CL a cup competition with him scoring 1 in 10 games. Up to the final he played 9 and scored 0
 

fute

Well-Known Member

Country: USA
Chelsea won the CL a cup competition with him scoring 1 in 10 games. Up to the final he played 9 and scored 0

And they won a trophy, right?

We've thrown enough money around. Money doesn't solve it with this manager.

We have enough to win the league. With Havertz. And he has played well for us.

CL is a different story. But that requires a few more modifications in other areas.
 

lomekian

Essays are my thing
Havertz's all-round game is nothing special though. People act like he's the second coming of Benzema. The number of fans who claim Havertz is “the most complete striker in the league” astounds me. He's a very good player in this system, but let's not act like he's an unicorn of a player. Jackson, Watkins, Isak, Welbeck and Wood can all do a decent Havertz impression and score too. The issue is that the money we've allocated to bring Havertz here, I need him to be elite to justify the cost. £65 million and £280k to be on the same level as Chris Wood is not what I signed up for.
Literally no one says he's the second coming of Benzema - more strawman nonsense.

He might be the most complete striker in the league, but that's because he can, if needed operate in 3 or 4 different positions in the same match. Certainly since finding his feet, he's been able to adapt reasonably well to whatever situation he's put in. None of which makes him peak Benzema. It says more about the league.

Your drawing an equivalence with Wood kind of undermines your entire argument. Wood has a few good weeks every season and then is utter ****e for months, and contributes nothing to build up, press or combination play.

Seeing people in this thread desperate to take a pop at Havertz after a couple of mediocre performances when he's desperate for a rest is pretty tragic, given that he's actually scored a carbon copy RVP goal and has been playing deeper and still contributing to build up, in order to mitigate the impact of our captain being injured, and actually making others better, in complete contrast to this time last year.

He's probably been our 2nd best player behind Saka (mayber 3rd behind Raya), looking at the totality of the season so far.
 

Maybe

You're wrong, no?
Betwetters being over-dramatic as usual. He was pretty good for large parts of the game. Not his fault Anthony Taylor was cool with him getting kicked, chopped, manhandled and tripped and refused to give him a damn thing. A non manc aligned ref gives him those free kicks, and suddenly its a great CF performance providing a platform for the team. He did a number of good things in the game despite being out on his feet in the second half and with bugger all support.
Think it goes both ways, critics go too far but fans in his camp are no better. There was not a single point in the game where he's done something useful, even a basic thing for a CF like holding up the ball was impossible to see.

How is your comment that "he was pretty good for large parts of the game" any better than comments that say he is an awful player? Both are wrong, yet you are looking down on people who don't like him like they are some subhumans even when your comment has the same value.

No, I don't like Havertz; yes, I think he is doing reasonably well as a CF; yes, I think his performance was one of the worst I've ever seen at this club from a CF, even donkeys like Chamakh and Sanogo were able to hold up the ball at times, which is desperately needed when you play clubs like Liverpool and City.
 

lomekian

Essays are my thing
Think it goes both ways, critics go too far but fans in his camp are no better. There was not a single point in the game where he's done something useful, even a basic thing for a CF like holding up the ball was impossible to see.

How is your comment that "he was pretty good for large parts of the game" any better than comments that say he is an awful player? Both are wrong, yet you are looking down on people who don't like him like they are some subhumans even when your comment has the same value.

No, I don't like Havertz; yes, I think he is doing reasonably well as a CF; yes, I think his performance was one of the worst I've ever seen at this club from a CF, even donkeys like Chamakh and Sanogo were able to hold up the ball at times, which is desperately needed when you play clubs like Liverpool and City.
Re the first bolded point -now that really is squinting to miss it. Sure his hold up play wasn't as consistent as in previous games (not helped by an utterly incompetent refereeing performance and most of him teammates not being within 20 yards of him while he had 2-3 defenders to compete with ), but there also pa number of instances where he successfully brought others into play under pressure, or carried the ball to get us up the pitch or then get it to team-mates in controlled positions. Denying that happened is some spectacularly selective memory. Watch the game back again if you don't believe me.

Perhaps this is informed by the scond bolded part. The hyperbolic statement you follow it with is embarassing at best, disengenuous at worst. He's put in worse performances for us before, as has every centre forward to have played for us in the last 17 years.

Maybe you are also not considering the quality of opponent as well. VVD, although not quite at his peak, is still one of the 10 best CBS in world football, and Konate, though rash, is a physical monster. A defence that had conceded 4 goals in 12 games inc ECL before we put 2 past them. They have the best all comps defence of any team in European competition, and the 2nd best in League games alone in Europe's top 5 leagues.

But if you think this was worse than Laca waddling around the half-way line vs mid table rubbish, or Auba disappearing after his new contract, go for your life.

And for the record, I like Havertz, but have been lucky enough to see several better CFs play for this club, and recognise them rather than him as the aspirational level. He's a good player who is our best option at the moment.
 

Bloodbather

Established Member

Country: Turkiye
You'd just be told his all round game makes him worth it and difficult to replace.

He has the best PR in the game hands down, to the point where you "simply do not know ball" if you aren't ecstatic with what he delivers.

We literally just have to wait until cut throat Arteta eventually decides to cut the bullshit Ramsdale style.
I wouldn't say you or @Trilly don't know ball, but I would say that you're overlooking things and/or taking things for granted. We went on an insane run, playing great offensive football on the front foot after Havertz was moved to CF last season. That wasn't a coincidence.

So far this season, Havertz's weaknesses are more annoying because we're far too conservative and we end up needing those magical touches that he doesn't have more than a well-oiled offensive machine would. It's more of a problem than it would've been had Ødegaard not been injured.

The point about Havertz being a litmus test for football knowledge does apply, you have hordes of people calling him a donkey and a Championship level player who "managers favor for some reason." He is the type of player that the type of fan who doesn't know much about the tactical side of the game or doesn't pay much attention to things off the ball would underrate. Not saying this applies to you, but that's where the "PR" comes from.
 

Red London

Anti-Simp Culture
Did ok yesterday.

He's what we've got until we manage to get a real killer upfront and that is a hard ask given the market.
I think you sign a Gyokeres or Sesko up top, and a marquee LW. For me the attack is key this summer.

Other than that you also replace Partey and Jorginho (no renewals please).

We didn’t spend much at all last summer and will surely clear the wage bill a bit if Jorgi and partey go. We will probably sell a couple attackers too. Defo room to go big considering we didn’t go crazy last summer as well.
 

lomekian

Essays are my thing
I think you sign a Gyokeres or Sesko up top, and a marquee LW. For me the attack is key this summer.

Other than that you also replace Partey and Jorginho (no renewals please).

We didn’t spend much at all last summer and will surely clear the wage bill a bit if Jorgi and partey go. We will probably sell a couple attackers too. Defo room to go big considering we didn’t go crazy last summer as well.
The fact we tried to do exactly this this summer shows that Arteta knows what's needed and that although Havertz is doing well, he's not the 40 games a season answer.
 

El Duderino

That's, like, your opinion, man.
Moderator
I think you sign a Gyokeres or Sesko up top, and a marquee LW. For me the attack is key this summer.

Other than that you also replace Partey and Jorginho (no renewals please).

We didn’t spend much at all last summer and will surely clear the wage bill a bit if Jorgi and partey go. We will probably sell a couple attackers too. Defo room to go big considering we didn’t go crazy last summer as well.

I'd take an elite LW, I'll be honest.

Not just because of Martinelli's form, but because I think playing CF for this version of Arsenal is a tough ask.

Basically the player needs to press, win duels, defend, drop into midfield and get back into the box. When you add reliably scoring 20+ league goal to that, well... no many out there who can do that.

Plus, you need elite fitness because it's such a demanding role and, currently at least, I don't see us changing tactics to accommodate a true goalscorer.
 

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