Do first team players deserve second chance with new manager?

[Jae]

Özil, Mhiktaryan, Aubameyang, Lacazette and Ramsey. Everyone else is fair game/easily upgradable in my opinion.

 

[Robin Thatcher]

I think it depends on the new manager and what system they want.

With Arsenal one thing is clear, we need a spine. A solid Spine. A GK, a captain/CB, A CDM that can tackle and win the ball. Given the quality of Ramsey and Wilshere technically why sell them unless we are changing approach. They will only go on and blossom elsewhere, see the Ox.

We have good attacking options and Welbeck fits into that IMO, people talk about Bellerin, Mustafi but they deserve a chance under the new man, as they are proven players. Our defence needs strengthening. I don't mind too much about our attacking style as 1-0 to the Arsenal under GG was never bad when you were winning each week.

I think a lot of our first team are squad players though, and that's where we are behind. I don't want Xhaka but put him on the bench and he will be useful. Welbeck is good in that role too. Lets also think of blooding some of the potential talent. Maitlend Nile, Willock, Kostas and Nelson need to be pushed on slightly next year. Iwobi only if he adds goals because we need a forward 3 that scores ALOT more.

 

[GDeep™]

Certain players aren’t up to it no matter who the manager is, Cech and Kos come to mind.

Kids like Iwobi will be given chances, while Welbeck is an excellent option.

What will happen with the new manager is though, he might just not fancy some players. He might not rate Iwobi, he might think Welbeck is a joke, think Mustafi makes too many mistakes etc, so we’ll see.

 

[GDeep™]

One thing is clear, this group of players has let Wenger down quite abit.

 

[c00lguy]

Problem with experience is the motivation and determination is gone.

We need young heads to bring life into the team.

 

[Trilly]

There isn't a player who doesn't deserve a second chance, even Mustafi could turn out decent in a better system.

I think the new manager will have a list of guys who he'll be willing to sell due to them wanting to move, contracts running down or him simply not rating them. In these categories:

Ramsey, Wilshere, Mustafi, Iwobi and Welbeck.

Ramsey's wage demands should be met as long as he doesn't take the piss, Wilshere's fate will be entirely at the hands of the new guy, he'll probably give Mustafi a chance and I actually expect Welbeck to get a lowkey contract renewal unless the new gaffer despises him.

Iwobi is an interesting one, I like him but I've long said his ceiling is as a top four squad player. I don't mind him staying here but at a top six club you usually want all of your young players to have elite potential...I'm worried for him.

edit: Oh yeah, Cech needs to be replaced ASAP. If you're being very generous give him half a season with the new defensive system to prove himself.

 

[Trilly]

Is this likely to happen? How is this possible I dont understand. If we only spend that little then we are 100% officially a stage below United, City and Chelsea. It will always be an uphill battle to compete with these guys if they're beating us to top tier players.

I was praying its Wenger's arrogance as to why we dont pay a lot of money for players

50M is a decent chunk of money for the club to make available for transfers. I believe this excludes money we'd get from CL qualifications, sponsors and player sales.

There's absolutely no way we have a fixed spend of 50M for this summer. Look what happened last summer.

 

[Kroket]

Mustafi's been garbage this season but considering our limited budget and the fact we'll need one or two new defenders regardless of what we do with him I hope a new manager can somehow sort him out.

Think all the raw ingredients are there, but he needs a lot of work when it comes to the tactical and mental aspects of the game. If we got rid now not only would we have to sign yet another defender but we'd get nowhere near what we paid for him,

Kolasinac is another one who has completely fallen off a cliff under Wenger but who I suspect could still come good with the right managerial appointment. He was simply too good in the Bundesliga to give up on him after just the one season.

A better tactical approach, maybe lose a few pounds of muscle and who knows what he can do. Monreal's getting on in age and spending money on two leftbacks should be out of the question.

 

[Camron]

Welbeck is a failed striker playing winger, doesn’t really have any outstanding attributes. He has scored 15 in 77 leagues games, with this season being his highest scoring season. He has been decent lately but he was rubbish until mid March, just don’t think he warrants the 40 games he has played this season. When you have a player like Nketiah getting no game time, Welbeck isn’t exactly young anymore and he only has a year left on his contract.

I like Welbeck, but he should become main striker for Everton. He has more in his locker. Maybe a loan would be a good outcome.

 

[Penn_]

People tend to overrated what a system can do for players, unless we’re going full on park the bus guys like Mustafi aren’t going to suddenly become world class.

Klopp’s used as an example but has finished 8th, 4th and 3rd. The betters finishes were largely boosted by the Mane and Salah additions.

 

[Toby]

People tend to overrated what a system can do for players, unless we’re going full on park the bus guys like Mustafi aren’t going to suddenly become world class.

That's absolutely not true. Coherent offensive systems have as much improved inidivual players as defensive systems have. There's a boatload of stuff you can work on:
- positioning in specific situations and in general
- distancing between players
- movement patterns
- running routes
- team shape
- establishing communication and hierarchy
- establishing triggers corresponding to certain actions

These are overall systemic things that can be taught which can massively improve or enhance a player's inidividual ability - and these methods are not restricted to defensive systems. In fact, a parking the bus style relies much more heavily on individual quality once the defense sits deep and compact or a break is initiated. That's why Mourinho won trophies with such tactics, and Stoke don't - cause the system relies on individual quality in defense as well as in offense.

Then there's individual things you can work on to improve performances. As a lot ot people rave about him and take it as proof of his abilities, look at the work Arteta apparently did with Sterling regarding his body positioning and shape as well as his perception of space. Raised his game by a few levels. That can be done with defenders as well. How to use your body and movement to show players inside or out, etc.

A few examples for defensive players being improved or enhanced by a coherent offensive system are Rafinha, Dante, Mathieu, Weigl, Schmelzer, Ulreich, I'd even say Stones and Otamendi, who are still both very suspect at times. I also feel a lot of the Sp**s backline looks better through the lense of their system than they actually are.

 

[Penn_]

That's absolutely not true. Coherent offensive systems have as much improved inidivual players as defensive systems have. There's a boatload of stuff you can work on:
- positioning in specific situations and in general
- distancing between players
- movement patterns
- running routes
- team shape
- establishing communication and hierarchy
- establishing triggers corresponding to certain actions

These are overall systemic things that can be taught which can massively improve or enhance a player's inidividual ability - and these methods are not restricted to defensive systems. In fact, a parking the bus style relies much more heavily on individual quality once the defense sits deep and compact or a break is initiated. That's why Mourinho won trophies with such tactics, and Stoke don't - cause the system relies on individual quality in defense as well as in offense.

Then there's individual things you can work on to improve performances. As a lot ot people rave about him and take it as proof of his abilities, look at the work Arteta apparently did with Sterling regarding his body positioning and shape as well as his perception of space. Raised his game by a few levels. That can be done with defenders as well. How to use your body and movement to show players inside or out, etc.

A few examples for defensive players being improved or enhanced by a coherent offensive system are Rafinha, Dante, Mathieu, Weigl, Schmelzer, Ulreich, I'd even say Stones and Otamendi, who are still both very suspect at times. I also feel a lot of the Sp**s backline looks better through the lense of their system than they actually are.

Overrated isn't equal to no effect at all. No manager is going to come in and turn a squad that's consistently finished outside the top four into title challengers without additions.

 

[Mark Tobias]

a squad that's consistently finished outside the top four

Last season we missed it by a point. This season was a mess. But consostently finished outside top four????

 

[Penn_]

Last season we missed it by a point. This season was a mess. But consostently finished outside top four????

Out of 38 games. League table doesn't lie.

 

[Mark Tobias]

Out of 38 games. League table doesn't lie.

Liverpool consistently finished outside the top four and Klopp got them back so there goes that theory of yours.

But honestly, consistently finished outside the top four? COme on. Two seasons... If we finish next season outside (likely) then I'll accept the 'consistently' tag.

 

[Penn_]

Liverpool consistently finished outside the top four and Klopp got them back so there goes that theory of yours.

But honestly, consistently finished outside the top four? COme on. Two seasons... If we finish next season outside (likely) then I'll accept the 'consistently' tag.

Well no because that's precisely what I said. They finished 4th and now 3rd with the additions of Mane and Salah.

 

[Mark Tobias]

Well no because that's precisely what I said. They finished 4th and now 3rd with the additions of Mane and Salah.

So with their new manager and two new players they were able to do it. Why then would we not?

Edit: Sorry, I did miss your "without additions" bit

 

[Penn_]

So with their new manager and two new players they were able to do it. Why then would we not?

Edit: Sorry, I did miss your "without additions" bit

We need the money for our transfer budget. I'm sure if you polled Arsenal fans and gave them the choice of a new CB rated by Mislintat or Mustafi under a new manager then the former would win out.

Also can't remember too many players flourishing after leaving Wenger/Arsenal. Why would it be any different now?

 

[Toby]

Overrated isn't equal to no effect at all. No manager is going to come in and turn a squad that's consistently finished outside the top four into title challengers without additions.

It's not gonna be examples of outside top 4 straight to league winners, but here's a couple of interesting instances in which the manager has clearly been the most prominent and important factor in improved performances without any/only few new signings.

In 2011, Heynckes took over Bayern. They only added Rafinha and Jerome Boateng, who was by no means a guaranteed success. He took them to a CL and DFB Cup final, after having finished 3rd in league and going out in the last 16 the season before.

Klopp took over Liverpool in October 2015. The summer signings had still been done by Rodgers. During the winter window, Klopp only added Steven Caulker to the team. He couldn't salvage their league performance that season, but still took them to two finals: the League Cup and the Europa League.

Chelsea signed only two players in David Luiz and Kanté in 2016, who both have played imposing and decisive roles in their league win that season. But arguably their biggest signing that summer was Conte who came in with a fresh system and fresh tactics.

Lucien Favre took over Gladbach in February 2011, saving them from relegation. The following summer and winter he added one senior player of note, leftback Oscar Wendt. Took that Gladbach side to 4th.

Wenger added a 20 year old Vieira and a 17 year old Anelka to the 95/96 team and took it from 5th to 3rd. Signing only three players of note, Grimandi, petit and Overmars the following season, he took the team to 1st.

While in some of these examples are instances of added quality through newly signed players, albeit in very limited ways, the overall pattern here is that the manager and his system/tactics are surely not overrated as an influence on players'/squad performance.

And maybe we should play the longer game. Don't try and turn the 6th into title challengers in one season. Get the team back into the top four, 3rd would be nice, then into title challengers for 19/20. And it doesn't need a myriad of new players or to change half the squad. Looking at the examples I gave, a very good manager along a few quality signings could tweak the team back up the table.

 

[Football Manager]

Özil, Mhiktaryan, Aubameyang, Lacazette and Ramsey. Everyone else is fair game/easily upgradable in my opinion.

Take Ramsey off that list