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Fredrik Ljungberg (Out)

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asajoseph

Established Member
Big Poppa said:
Freddie was well within his rights to express his opinion. But I think he looks silly questioning Arsenal's ambition and then moving to West Ham. I think his own ambition should be interrogated - he wanted to stay in the comfort zone of London rather than move to Florence, Fiorentina are a far more 'up and coming' side than West Ham, thats for sure. He's 31 soon and has probably lost his final opportunity to win a European trophy.

Do we know that a move to Fiorentina was even possible, realistically? We heard a lot of puff in the press about it, but did the clubs say anything?

To be honest though, money also probably played a big part in things - he probably plumped for the biggest contract he was being offered, and whilst West Ham were pretty rubbish last year, I don't think they're really as bad as last year's league table said.

I guess that still doesn't explain his comments though.
 

ronitc

Well-Known Member
Do you think I like us losing at f*cking bramall lane and scraping 4th against the spuds. No it 's terrible especially after being so "spoilt", but I am willing to endure a couple of hard seasons without sniping at Wenger. If and when we win our next title it should be with the nucleus of young players in the side and if we can retain those players for a significant period of time we will continue to challenge every year thereafter.
 

Biggus

Established Member
ronitc said:
Do you think I like us losing at f*cking bramall lane and scraping 4th against the spuds. No it 's terrible especially after being so "spoilt", but I am willing to endure a couple of hard seasons without sniping at Wenger. If and when we win our next title it should be with the nucleus of young players in the side and if we can retain those players for a significant period of time we will continue to challenge every year thereafter.

And so say all of us Ron, but most of my life footballistically (as Arsène would say) or otherwise has been "hard seasons" and I'd like some good times now please, rather than wait for some that may or may not happen in the future. Life is very short and we must take our pleasures where we find them. Do you see what I mean?
 

morpho

Established Member
No, not realy Biggus... Your personal endorfins are not more important then secureing the long term of a successful Arsenal...

What are you? 30+/-? That gives you more or less 40 more years as a gooner...
 

asajoseph

Established Member
Wenger's legacy will be based against that of his predecessors, particularly George Graham, but also all others before him.

When judging his season-on-season performances, however, where we finished under Graham is pretty much irrelevant. The fact is, up until 2003/04, Wenger did a pretty fantastic job, and for me, that was the peak - but year on year, it's been pretty much downhill since then (I actually think we were fractionally better in 06/07 than 05/06).

We no longer are the Arsenal side of the likes of Eddie McGoldrick, Ian Selley or Chris Kiwomya, times have changed, and we've already moved on, and our expectations should move with that.

Whether or not Wenger can hold this side together long enough for them to challenge is probably his biggest challenge over then next 3-4 years - but if he loses more key players, we could find ourselves stuck in a cycle of rebuilding that would never seems to end. Personally, I never think it should have come to this anyway - Wenger's cataclysmic approach to changing his sides seems to have hurt us in the last three years, and with a few sensible buys (I don't just mean big money) over this period, he might have avoided all of this, and still have a collection of talented youngsters on his hands.
 

stiiphunn

Established Member
asajoseph said:
Wenger's legacy will be based against that of his predecessors, particularly George Graham, but also all others before him.

When judging his season-on-season performances, however, where we finished under Graham is pretty much irrelevant. The fact is, up until 2003/04, Wenger did a pretty fantastic job, and for me, that was the peak - but year on year, it's been pretty much downhill since then (I actually think we were fractionally better in 06/07 than 07/08).

We no longer are the Arsenal side of the likes of Eddie McGoldrick, Ian Selley or Chris Kiwomya, time have changed, and we've already moved on.

Whether or not Wenger can hold this side together long enough for them to challenge is probably his biggest challenge over then next 3-4 years - but if he loses more key players, we could find ourselves stuck in a cycle of rebuilding that would never seems to end. Personally, I never think it should have come to this anyway - Wenger's cataclysmic approach to changing his sides seems to have hurt us in the last three years, and with a few sensible buys (I don't just mean big money) over this period, he might have avoided all of this, and still have a collection of talented youngsters on his hands.

He decided to give them a chance. Will it work? Only time will tell but it's his philosophy.
At one point you have to make some room for the younger players. Not many managers do that but Wenger has decided to do it- I guess it was partially because of the new stadium. I remember him saying that while coaching the youth team he understood how important it was to give the young players a chance at one point.

It's a huge challenge for Arsène- maybe his biggest one. But he's such a good manager that I'm confident he'll succeed. He's probably thinking about it 24/7 while we're quicly discussing it on an internet forum. He's probably thought this through a million times and if he's decided to do this then I trust him 100%.
Also you have to take into account the fact that teams like Liverpool or Chelsea have improved a lot. Same goes for the Sp**s.
It's going to be tough and to be honest it's going to be quite interesting. I can't wait for the new season.
 

Biggus

Established Member
asajoseph said:
Whether or not Wenger can hold this side together long enough for them to challenge is probably his biggest challenge over then next 3-4 years - but if he loses more key players, we could find ourselves stuck in a cycle of rebuilding that would never seems to end. Personally, I never think it should have come to this anyway - Wenger's cataclysmic approach to changing his sides seems to have hurt us in the last three years, and with a few sensible buys (I don't just mean big money) over this period, he might have avoided all of this, and still have a collection of talented youngsters on his hands.

Well said Asa, you put it more succinctly than I did. I don't understand why people would think-

We will just defer some success now for the certain success we will achieve in X years.
What makes people think we will achieve success now or in X years? Success is never certain, we can only try to do our utmost all the time, and I don't think we are.

I'm not demanding 25 million pound signings (Wengers record when he does spend is not great) But as Asa says a few sensible buys, not just 16 year olds or some guys who are disappointed to find out england is not all sunshine and palm trees.
 

Zico

Established Member
asajoseph said:
Personally, I never think it should have come to this anyway - Wenger's cataclysmic approach to changing his sides seems to have hurt us in the last three years, and with a few sensible buys (I don't just mean big money) over this period, he might have avoided all of this, and still have a collection of talented youngsters on his hands.

And this is exactly the way that teams are supposed to rebuild. Within 3 years, Manchester United, for example, will have shed Scholes, Giggs, Neville. However, their understudies (respectively Carrick, Nani, Bardsley) are in place and learning from the great men. The rest of the squad should be able to contribute during that period. Ferguson's greatest difficulty was trying to replace Keane (first with Veron, and then with the hapless Djemba-Djemba and Kleberson). However, even with that challenge he was never as irrelevant as Arsenal have become in the last two title races, largely because he still had the afore-mentioned stalwarts, and had continued to add quality players elsewhere like Ruud and Heinze.

A team that generates as much revenue as Arsenal should not have to survive like Ajax: producing a generation of stars, selling them off and starting again. We should be able to compete every year with a squad that changes gradually - an average of 1-2 starters a year, for example - allowing understudies to learn from good players.
 

Rohit

Established Member
What Ljungberg and Henry have said after moving can be taken in two ways. Either it will demotivate and demoralize the players remaining having seen two of the longest serving players gone saying what they have about the club or they can accept the gauntlet thrown at them and prove a point that they are good enough. I just hope its the latter. This team has a lot of talent and if they can give it their all in every game and be 100% motivated for every game they'll do wonders.

Arsenal heroes rap Ljungberg: Don't write club off
 

marco

Well-Known Member
ronitc said:
Only Vieira and Henry could be classed as our best players when they left the club.

We've replaced Vieira with Cesc...not quite as dominating but equally talented.

Cashley comes close but we've replaced him adequately with Clichy.

Others were well into their decline. Pires, Ljungberg, Lauren, Kanu, Wiltord, Parlour.

Sol was a wreck at the club and wasn't close to being our best defender when he left.

Keown retired and he wasn't first choice when he did.

Bergkamp had immense quality even in his final year and he is the one that the squad is really missing.

So pires 15 goals a season havent been missed
or wiltords versatility and important goals
or parlour strength in the middle
or laurens stength, and the fact no one ever beat him twice.
or kanu's mere presence as a sub when your winning who can hold the ball up..


it was the stenght that these players had.
how many times did we get bullied with the likes of vieira, lauren keown in our team??
like the nil nill at old trafford in 2003-04 season grinding the result out.

the players we have replaced like for like havent been good enough

helb for pires
diaby for vieira
adebayor for kanu
no one for wiltord or parlour

when was the last time we ground out a result???
 

longrufus

Established Member
How about Blackburn, Gilberto sent off early, down to 10 men and still played Balckburn off the park. Dont give me that nonsense.
 

qs

Established Member
marco said:
ronitc said:
Only Vieira and Henry could be classed as our best players when they left the club.

We've replaced Vieira with Cesc...not quite as dominating but equally talented.

Cashley comes close but we've replaced him adequately with Clichy.

Others were well into their decline. Pires, Ljungberg, Lauren, Kanu, Wiltord, Parlour.

Sol was a wreck at the club and wasn't close to being our best defender when he left.

Keown retired and he wasn't first choice when he did.

Bergkamp had immense quality even in his final year and he is the one that the squad is really missing.

So pires 15 goals a season havent been missed
or wiltords versatility and important goals
or parlour strength in the middle
or laurens stength, and the fact no one ever beat him twice.
or kanu's mere presence as a sub when your winning who can hold the ball up..

So you'd have Parlour as an Arsenal player now then? You may as well say we miss Wrightys goals, Adams leadership or Bradys skill and creativity.


it was the stenght that these players had.
how many times did we get bullied with the likes of vieira, lauren keown in our team??
like the nil nill at old trafford in 2003-04 season grinding the result out.

Plenty of times in Vieiras last season.

the players we have replaced like for like havent been good enough

helb for pires
diaby for vieira
adebayor for kanu
no one for wiltord or parlour

when was the last time we ground out a result???

Hleb isn't for Pires, Hleb mostly plays right and Pires mostly played left. I've never heard this comparison before.

Diaby is a sub Vieira was the captain how does that make Diaby his replacement? Because they're both Tall, bald and black?

Kanu left the club 2 years before Adebayor joined. You really ahve a thing about players looking the same don't you.

No one for Wiltord or Parlour? We haven't added anyone since they left? Who does Rosicky replace, what about Flamini, Theo, Denilson, etc

These player for player comparisons are pointless. United didn't replace Keane or van Nistlerooy and they did alright.
 

asajoseph

Established Member
Well, no, it wasn't - but beating Bolton on our own patch was a lot of fun for those of us who were there.

And, as I said, going a goal down against our bogey team, and coming back to win 2-1 counts as 'grinding' in my book.
 

stiiphunn

Established Member
asajoseph said:
Well, no, it wasn't - but beating Bolton on our own patch was a lot of fun for those of us who were there.

And, as I said, going a goal down against our bogey team, and coming back to win 2-1 counts as 'grinding' in my book.

We weren't a goal down I think.
If my memory's correct, we scored first then Beasley equalised and then Cesc scored to make it 2-1...
 

Glovegun

Established Member
Individually selling each one of the Invincibles made sense really.

Vieira - Fabregas needed space, and Paddy didnt really want to be there.

Henry - would have kept him myself but I can see why Wenger didnt.

Pires - looked jaded in his last season.

Lauren - Eboue and Hoyte emerging meant he couldnt really have come back.

Cole - getting Gallas instead, as well as already having Clichy means he isnt too badly missed.

Ljungberg - detioriorated incredibly quickly.

Campbell - after the West Ham game at Highbury I think we all knew.

Each one of those players has a good young replacement in there instead of them, even if we miss so many big attributes each one brought to the club - Vieira's presence, Henry's brilliance, Pires and Freddie's goals, Campbell's aerial ability. What makes it so drastic and a little damaging is that we have lost them all at once, and so quickly. Add to that the retiring of Bergkamp and Keown, and the moving on of Wiltord, Parlour and Kanu (as well as bit-part players like Reyes, Pennant and Cygan) and its easy to see why the transition has been so hard. Since Vieira's last game (the 2005 FA Cup final) we have lost the following:

Vieira, Henry, Bergkamp, Pires, Campbell, Ljungberg, Edu, Cole, Lauren, Reyes, Cygan

and brought in the following:

Walcott, Gallas, Adebayor, Rosicky, Hleb, Diaby, Denilson, Eboue (?), Eduardo, Sagna, Fabianski, Song + players who have graduated from the youth set-up (Fabregas, Djourou, Hoyte, Traore).

That is a more drastic change than any other Premiership team over the same season. Individually losing each player isnt too bad, its the speed and volume of the change that has suprised us all.
 

asajoseph

Established Member
stiiphunn said:
asajoseph said:
Well, no, it wasn't - but beating Bolton on our own patch was a lot of fun for those of us who were there.

And, as I said, going a goal down against our bogey team, and coming back to win 2-1 counts as 'grinding' in my book.

We weren't a goal down I think.
If my memory's correct, we scored first then Beasley equalised and then Cesc scored to make it 2-1...
That was Man City, who I believe we beat 3-1.
 

Rohit

Established Member
We did score the most number of goals in the last 15 minutes of a game. We came back after conceeding the first goal either to win or draw many times and the only time we let a lead slip was against Chelsea both at the Emirates and Stamford Bridge. We do have players who are strong mentally, we just need to start games better. Obviously the first 2 pre season games cannot be counted on, but if reports are anything to go by, in both games we started slowly with both Barnet and the Turkish team creating a few chances in the first few minutes.
 
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